[Steve in Sunny Fl]

I tried to cut n paste the writeup I did, it's educational and targeted to new riders or folks who are exploring tuning via the various offerings available. Unfortunately, maybe it's something with the forum, but it wouldn't accept the cut and paste. maybe I did it wrong. Not trying to be "the salesman" just trying to educate folks so they know what the difference is between power commanders / booster plugs / flashing. I guess I must have inadvertently offended someone.

 

[Gigitt]

If you want economy go by a honda! my2c

it was said before MAX front sprocket is 16 tooth, so to get even higher gearing you need to remove teeth from the rear sprocket.

OK... back to OP issues - so you have to factor a lot in final drive gearing, too high a gearing you then run lower rpm and then need to twist the throttle more to beat wind resistance at 80mph - so now you are not efficiently burning your fuel and blowing out your economy - basically running too rich and lugging your engine - both not good. You have to compromise... the faster you go the more fuel you will use. and you need to find the correct gearing that will give you best economy and that is not going to be <5k rpm as you have found out.

Power commander is not going to help as it will richen your fueling compounding your issue.

My Versys 650 has 16/45 and is sooo much better than 15/45. this alone means I can use 1st gear in traffic, I have lowered 500 rpm of my 6th gear cruising speed, but I still have power when i need it. (note I also have power commander v and autotune set to 13.1 fuel ratio, but to only fix low end fuel stumbling).
I also fitted a Healtech SpeedoHealer - now my speed is gps correct and my odo is real km travelled (not 10% more on the clock!)

alternatives.... Buy a bike to suit you needs.
I bought a Super Tenere 1200 to do my touring as my Versys 650 is not comfortable for me long distance (im a big dude) 5-600km+ days are not fun with a bad lower back. Still use versys as a commuter.

2 of my friends upgraded their bikes more suited to how they are riding. KTM Duke 390 (sold) to BMW F700GS, and MV Augusta 800 to Multistrada 1200. Still has the MV because race bike! but it was not a touring bike.

I feel you have gone way to far in your gearing and now chasing elec fueling alternatives as a fix.

 

[ShadowsRyderV]

If you want economy go by a honda! my2c

it was said before MAX front sprocket is 16 tooth, so to get even higher gearing you need to remove teeth from the rear sprocket.

OK... back to OP issues - so you have to factor a lot in final drive gearing, too high a gearing you then run lower rpm and then need to twist the throttle more to beat wind resistance at 80mph - so now you are not efficiently burning your fuel and blowing out your economy - basically running too rich and lugging your engine - both not good. You have to compromise... the faster you go the more fuel you will use. and you need to find the correct gearing that will give you best economy and that is not going to be <5k rpm as you have found out.

Power commander is not going to help as it will richen your fueling compounding your issue.

My Versys 650 has 16/45 and is sooo much better than 15/45. this alone means I can use 1st gear in traffic, I have lowered 500 rpm of my 6th gear cruising speed, but I still have power when i need it. (note I also have power commander v and autotune set to 13.1 fuel ratio, but to only fix low end fuel stumbling).
I also fitted a Healtech SpeedoHealer - now my speed is gps correct and my odo is real km travelled (not 10% more on the clock!)

alternatives.... Buy a bike to suit you needs.
I bought a Super Tenere 1200 to do my touring as my Versys 650 is not comfortable for me long distance (im a big dude) 5-600km+ days are not fun with a bad lower back. Still use versys as a commuter.

2 of my friends upgraded their bikes more suited to how they are riding. KTM Duke 390 (sold) to BMW F700GS, and MV Augusta 800 to Multistrada 1200. Still has the MV because race bike! but it was not a touring bike.

I feel you have gone way to far in your gearing and now chasing elec fueling alternatives as a fix.

Yup, I 100% agree on that last sentence. I got obsessed with turning the Versys into what I thought would be ideal for me; while not understanding all the principles behind the engineering of it.

So then what would you recommend for sprocket gearing? What MPG are you getting at 16/45? And is there a better alternative, or is that gearing the best option?

 

[Gigitt]

Yup, I 100% agree on that last sentence. I got obsessed with turning the Versys into what I thought would be ideal for me; while not understanding all the principles behind the engineering of it.

So then what would you recommend for sprocket gearing? What MPG are you getting at 16/45? And is there a better alternative, or is that gearing the best option?

I cant tell you what you need, that is something that you have to work out.
You have to find a sweet spot for the final drive that gives you enough power to have some fun, but also some economy at the speed you want to cruising on the highway.

Mentioned before above is using the gearingcommander web site. I used this and settled on 16/46(stock rear) as changing the front sprocket IS the CHEAPEST option to start with.
My reason to gearing change was using 15/46 , 1st gear is short. 1st gear was terrible with the stock low rpm fueling and you get bucked like a horse when trying to filter in in traffic. So I went 16/45 and this really fixed 1st gear riding - it was not as short and it became usable in low speed manouvering and filtering. To fix my low rpm fueling I added a power commander and Autotune and run fuel air ratio fuel map - it is not dyno tuned and not set up for power or economy. So now my Versys 650 is really nice and smooth - 1st gear is usable even downshifting into 1st when braking, I still have power to pull away in top gear when cruising.
Sorry but fuel economy is not what I am tracking, but I do like to twist the right wrist alot and do like to blat the bike around because it is a fun bike to ride. (and it sounds sooo good with a Leo Vince underbelly exhaust with no baffle )

My 6th gear cruising has dropped 500 rpm which is good. I think going greater than 1000 rpm lower in 6th is worth it. play with the gearingcommader web site to see what sprocket combination work to get you in the 500-1000 rpm drop.
I still think 1000 rpm is too much but others can chime in here.

Lugging the engine is not good for the bike longevity as you will get carbon build up on the injectors valves and pistons and then this leads to less power and you then are using more throttle to compensate and it all just gets worse.

 

[fasteddiecopeman]

...So then what would you recommend for sprocket gearing? What MPG are you getting at 16/45? And is there a better alternative, or is that gearing the best option?

MY suggestion is to STAY w/ 'stock gearing' - 15/46 (I've ridden over 178,000 miles w/ the 'stock gearing' among THREE V650s). I get as much as 60mpgUS (75mpgImperial), and USUALLY MORE than 50!

I also ride on dirt sometimes, and by gearing UP you make first gear a bit higher than you want or can use, if you get into something "gnarly".

 

[Fly-Sig]

I don't think any of us have access to the kinds of information needed to find the optimum gearing for any particular application aside from our own observation of our bike.

Having said that, we know that engines convert fuel to power with varying efficiency depending on rpm, throttle position, and load. As a generalization, somewhere around 1/3rd to 1/2 of the way up from idle to redline is where the engine has the best efficiency, but only at fairly high throttle settings. This will give most power per unit of fuel, but is not the same as max potential power. Note that lower rpm is less efficient, too.

I find that 4500-5500 rpm at stable legal highway speeds seems to indicate the best fuel economy. If I am loafing around town with near zero demand for power, a lower rpm gets better economy.

Max power, or max torque (not the same but related), depend on rpm. Again a broad generalization, but about 1/3rd down from max rpm will be the max power the engine can develop. RPM higher or lower than that can't develop as much power.

So these points are not the same. We can get better economy or more power, but not best efficiency and most power at the same time.

But how much power do we need? For highway cruising at legal speeds it isn't a lot, so that max efficiency rpm should be the target, in theory. For super-legal speeds we would want to be at the max power rpm.

So the gearing needs to reflect which regime you are looking for. I've found the factory gearing at 55-65 mph gets excellent fuel efficiency, running at about 5000 rpm. Going to a one tooth different sprocket probably won't improve economy measurably, but it will get the speedo more accurate. Drastic gearing changes lower the rpm so far that the engine cannot generate enough power in top gear, resulting in downshifting to get to top speed. Fuel efficiency can be lower at this lower rpm, too.

An additional consideration is the engine's natural vibrations. Running at a rough rpm isn't good for the engine even if you are getting better fuel economy. You can damage the engine, costing a lot more $$ than any fuel savings!

I would go back to stock or near-stock gearing if I were you. If the V650 isn't giving you the experience you want, maybe you would prefer a different bike. Something with a V-twin that rumbles at low rpm with lots of torque.

 

[dddd]

still no answer to my question on post 14.
where are you reading this mpg?

 

[betoney]

Besides that, rather than spending all this money on fixing my bike to turn into something I want, would I be better off just selling it and upgrading (been thinking about upgrading for a long time) to something like a R1200GS or a Tiger 1200?

I am sure you are aware of this but the smaller the motor, the higher its naturally going to want to rev or be in its comfortable "sweet spot". The opposite is also true, usually the larger displacement motor, the lower its cruising rpm will be for a given speed.
Just on this forum using the 300, 650 and 1000 as examples, 80mph cruising on the highway will be much more relaxed on the 1000 and very high revving on the 300.
You can lower the cruising rpm on the highway a little bit like has been mentioned earlier (+1 front or -2/3 rear) but if you go too far the characteristics of the motor will really start to suffer. So to answer your question, if that is your goal then, yes, a larger motor will give you what you want.

 

[onewizard]

still no answer to my question on post 14.
where are you reading this mpg?

Sorry, kind of jumped in, then had to deal with spammers , then had to deal with passed new member also spammers. So a few minutes left to actually participate on the forum. So I have a 2015 V650 , it has several computer generated displays, I will call it, in Canada the shiny star you are helping the planet with real good fuel economy vanishes above at 130 KM/HR . So almost a month ago, I was out on one of my normal runs into the back country, total 430 KM round trip. This time I was running about a little over 3/4 of a tank, I decided to push it and not fill up on the way up. So I use the KM/L display , in the past I have watched this and was skeptical about the accuracy. ED uses the projected distance left in the tank, this is using the fuel gauge and the KM/L input. I don't like that, I like to see KM/L because old fuel performs differently,how much wrist action also affects it, I can see KM/L updates about every 5 seconds . So back to what happened , My return home was over 200 KM , partway back my fuel gauge started to flash, yes I passed two gas stations, but didn't want to stop and I was 6 KM past the last station when it started. I know in the past that I have had 5 liters left in the tank when filling up. So my prefered fuel stop was 80 KM away,doing the math, about 20KM/L X 5 =100 KM , sort of pushing, no pun intended. So I know that in the past, anything above 100 KM/HR the fuel mileage drops drastically, if I keep it around 80 KM/HR I can get 500 KM out of a tank ( 400KM if at or above 100 KM/HR). So several times I was looking at hey, maybe I should pull into a farm and get a gallon. Instead I kept it at 4000 RPM and 80 KM/HR . When I filled up, I had 3 Liters left in the tank. That was 85KM from Grey Bruce 1 just outside Owen Sound to Harriston driving on Grey rd 3. So the KM/L is extremely accurate . I am running PR 5 front and rear. I run 38 front and 42 rear. There was a post about pressure increase by 10% as to the sweet spot for weight/ load. My tire pressure monitor confirms for my load, the pressure is bang on. FYI, I normally fuel up and my RPM is rarely at less than 5000 RPM, the choice of riding or walking made my decision easier.

Yes another long post. Does this help??

 

[dddd]

So the KM/L is extremely accurate [....] Does this help??

So you are reading the dashboard. No wonder it is way off with your new final drive ratio.
Problem solved.

Measure distance between fillup with gps or google map (because you cannot trust the bike odometer anymore), and measure fuel by the pump.
Then if it is still worse, it wont be by -15mpg.
Do that at least 5 times for stats accuracy.
Unlike your bike, we'll stay tuned!

 

[onewizard]

So you are reading the dashboard. No wonder it is way off with your new final drive ratio.
Problem solved.

Measure distance between fillup with gps or google map (because you cannot trust the bike odometer anymore), and measure fuel by the pump.
Then if it is still worse, it wont be by -15mpg.
Do that at least 5 times for stats accuracy.
Unlike your bike, we'll stay tuned!

I assume you are referring to another poster, not me. I have stock gearing and the KM I posted were GPS generated, I use trip A and B for keeping track of chain lube, my criteria is 500 KM maximum. So several times last year I did 930 to 970 one day trips, I carry chain lube and my prop stand with me. As to KM/L , on my 07 I had a 16 T counter sprocket, again I used the GPS KM for reference. The MK-3 is the first year with this feature, in my post I stated I had 3 liters left. All my mileages are done using the GPS and the total fuel sale at the pump. I said at 80 KM/HR I can get 500 KM on a tank, that includes going up steep hills , but going extremely light on the throttle. My normal tank is 400 KM with up to 4 liters in the tank. I fill to the metal oval shape in the tank, so fuel in is within 1/2 liter every time. That last ride I was averaging 27 to 28 liters per KM , that calulates out with the GPS and pump receipt.

You mentioned final drive ratio and mileage being off, I would say that is incorrect if we applied it to a 16T countershaft sprocket and used a multiplier of the ratio, if I had a 16T the computer would show a much poorer mileage , as the distance traveled is about 6% greater, an advantage if you are selling the bike and mileage is a concern. The 07 that 16T corrected the speedometer error , but threw in a mileage error. I never really got too deeply involved with the discussion of this thread, however if I was getting like 15 KM/L I would be concerned, beyond that I put gas in to ride, it costs what it costs, at 70 I dont care, although I will frequent the most consistent gas station, for me that is in Harriston on one of my rides.

 

[dddd]

I assume you are referring to another poster

Oops. My bad.
I though you were finally the OP responding to the question.
Just to clarify, if the ratio is changed then the speed, distance and mpg on the dashboard are changed.
All I want to know is if the OP has read his mpg on the dashboard, while using his much taller gearing.

 

[ShadowsRyderV]

where are you reading this mpg?
if it's the dashboard, then no wonder!

you go from 46/15 (3.06 turn of the front) to 33/19 (1.73 turn of the front) per turn of the wheel.
That's 0.566 of the original.. (Way more than just 10mph lower).
When you ride 80mph for real, it would indicate 45.3 mph.
When you had 50mpg it would indicate 28.3mpg.

So there is something wrong, your details don't add up.

Other than that, the engine must work harder to fight wind. it like constantly climbing hills in 6th gear when you should be in 4th or 3rd... It's not burning efficiently, the piston has not moved much and the eploding mix is already cooling. So you open throttle more, thus it's like you are constantly heavy on the throttle. Low mpg.

My apologies for not seeing this post, and taking to long to get back to post # 14, 27, and 32!

You're info proved very helpful! I didn't even consider that it was measuring the mile counter different, even though it was measuring MPH differently. So I tested it out!

As far as sprockets; stock is the 15/46. And I looked into it, and my set up right now is 16/41. Which in all honesty isn't even that bad I feel like, compared to something like 33/19. That's a change of about 8 teeth, if the front is counted as 3.

So I rode 100 miles yesterday! It reads at 80 miles for every 100. After doing the math with this taken into account, I am getting about 45 MPG. EPIC WIN! I did loose like 4 MPG I think, but considering it's not actually 35 PLUS the comfort of riding 1.5K RPM lower; I'm more than happy with my purchase now. But like you said, I will do this multiple times to confirm what my average MPG is.

Can anything be done to calibrate this? My speedometer and trip counter?

I have some footage on my GoPro of what it's like riding with this setup, it's taken before I realize the issue with mile counting. But I show what it's like in first gear. Some made the assumption that I must be grinding away in first just to get moving. I haven't had that issue, and have been able to even pop wheelies (though I've never been able to ride one, cause I suck at wheelies) I'll post footage soon.

 

[betoney]

As far as sprockets; stock is the 15/46. And I looked into it, and my set up right now is 16/41. Which in all honesty isn't even that bad I feel like, compared to something like 33/19. That's a change of about 8 teeth, if the front is counted as 3.

Wait , so you just changed your sprockets again? 6 days ago you had 19/33. 🤷‍♀️

 

[ShadowsRyderV]

Wait , so you just changed your sprockets again? 6 days ago you had 19/33. 🤷‍♀️

Yeah my mistake; I thought my change was wayyy worse that it really was. I just bring it to the mechanic. In all honesty, 16/41, while a lot, isn't THAT drastic from some Googling I did. Low-key surprised it's had this much of an effect.

 

[Gigitt]

To fix your speedo so it matched you GPS speed you need to install a HealTech Speedo Healer.

 

[Smiley]

Enough with all this nonsense! Find out what your sprockets are exactly, and correct your gearing to a reasonable ratio.

Stock is 15/46... 16T is the largest possible countershaft sprocket.

Agreed. Why would anyone ride such high gearing anyway? Like riding a vintage BSA Goldstar on the road, slipping the clutch for half a block, stalling, in the wrong gear when acceleration is needed?
Versys is happy above 5-6000 rpm at 'highway' speeds.
I never understand the vibration complaints. Think the V is bad? ride that BSA Gold Star.
All bikes vibrate, as they should, something that says 'you're riding a motorcycle'. Lighten the grip on the bar, get Grip Buddies or drive a car.

Disclaimer: I have a 16 tooth countershaft sprocket, standard rear. It toned down the hoolie tendencies to lift the front wheel and the speedo is accurate. A slight difference, nothing radical.
I've ridden Norton Atlas so I know vibration. My Versys' vibrations would probably not even excite a particularly horny lady I've known.

 

[Jungle Phantom]

Hello all. I have a 2015 Versys 650 LT.

This year, I changed my stock sprockets to be almost all centered around cruising, top end, high MPG, and long riding. So I went down as much as I could in the rear, and up as much as I could in the front. It ended up being something like down 13 rear, up 3 or 4 in the front I think.

NOW, before everyone says "wow, that's such a crazy change" I have to say, that I had previously given it a try where I went only slightly lower, rather than the max I could. And it just wasn't the difference I wanted. I pretty much ONLY do highway miles, and when I'm at 80 mph, I don't want to be at 6K vibrating as all get out. So I'm very pleased with the end result so far, because the RPMs are wayyy lower and make it more comfortable to ride.

DOWNSIDES: There is two huge downsides occurring however.
1. The speed calibration. It is showing as 10 miles under my actual limit. So I have to do some math to make sure I'm "going the speed limit"
2. The MPG has gone unacceptably low. I went from 48-50 MPG to now about 35 MPG. At first I chalked this up to punching the bike when I got it back from the shop, just to see it's new limits. And that's not the issue, I have ridden it in the most Eco friendly riding style, and I can not for the life of me pass 38 MPG.

So talking with a friend of mine, he recommend the solution to both of these downsides would be to get a DynoJet Power Commander. I wanted to probe the V650 community and get everyone's thoughts on that. If I went that route, I could even set up different maps for riding conditions. Highway, sport, off road, etc. He also mentioned something about the Power Commander even controlling the ABS module, which I wasn't sure about either, but this guy's ridden way longer and is a mechanic. So what do I know? If it could control the ABS module, than I could remove my ABS breaker switch that I keep in the right outlet on the panel, and put a system in place to rapidly change between Power Commander Maps.

What are your thoughts on these? Any advice is appreciated!

EDIT: Gearing is 16/41

No way jose!

You're killing your bike.
What you have done is mechanically destructive in multiple ways

One tooth up on the front (alone) maybe.

Two teeth down on the back... again maybe.

Shadows, get your standard sprockets back on pronto!
Don't worry about the Revs mate, the very short stroke
of these engines means low piston speed.


Not necessarily for droning along on the highway... but larger
rear sprockets (not smaller front) does all sorts of good things...
of course the opposite (in broad brush strokes) does all sorts of bad things.

I know I'm new here, but trust me on this. You know the reputation of Australian aviation??? think QANTAS.
The below is me... you can call me Alan Hugh... You're welcome!

 

[John P Versys]

Why not try a moderate gearing change instead of just giving up and going back to stock? I have 16t front and 45t rear, cruising at 70-75 with loaded side and top cases has the bike sitting under 6000 rpm and getting 55mpg average, with only a lightly loaded topcase 60mpg is guaranteed. I am loving this recent change, its comfortable to sit on the highway as needed, and power is still there in lower gears and higher revs as needed.

I also have the Shoodabeen flash from Steve, the hype on it is real.

A slightly smaller rear like 44 or 43 could be perfect for your goal to cruise around 80 all the time. Use gearingcommander.com to preview the RPM level of any planned changes

I just swapped out my chains and sprockets this morning.
I have the exact 16T Front 45T rear setup you mentioned.

Factory 6000 RPM was 75mph GPS (72 Speedo)
16/45 6000 RPM is now 82.5 GPS (80 Speedo)

65 GPS was 5,000 RPM
65 GPS now 4,250
* These numbers are taken from a go pro driving slowly to allow full GPS SYNC
** Speeds are not what the gearingcommander.com site predicted.

Engine braking is no longer so pronounced.
Still plenty of power to get the wheel off the ground in 1st when i stomped on it.
I may consider a Flash during the winter - Everyone seems to be happy with it.

 

[onewizard]

Are you talking a Versys 650 ? I question your readings, nothing has changed since the MK-1 to MK-3 . I had a MK-1 with a 16T front , GPS read bang on, so did speedo although the mileage was low by 6% . On my 2015 Versys 650 , I am running stock gearing, I use my GPS speed primarily as it is up higher , my speedo reads 103KM/HR when my GPS says 100KM/HR, I am running PR-5 , when the tire was new both speedo and GPS were bang on. On my 07 I had PR-3 , with a 16T front the GPS and Speedo were bang on, before the change with 15T front my speedo was 106 at actual 100 KM/HR GPS confirmed , as to RPM on the 07, yes I was 500 RPM lower at 120 KM/HR than with the 15T Below is my 07

And the 2015