Kawasaki Versys Forum banner
61 - 80 of 155 Posts

Premium Member
Joined
9,943 Posts
Discussion Starter · #61 · (Edited)
New Option #4 April 1 2019 Headlight Trigger

View post number 6 for a fourth option for those intending to never reverse back to the OEM regulator and don't wish to remove the gas tank. This eliminates the 3 phase plug at the stator or a version of eliminating it the plug, and uses the horn for triggering the headlight relay using the horn Brown with Black tracer wire which is keyed on positive to the horn, all starting will turn the headlight off momentarily and when keying off the headlight relay will drop out. The power from the horn is used for about 1 second or less, after that the headlight relay latches on from the internal relay circuit pin #3 gray wire.

This comes from a new member that didn't follow the original MK-1 MK-2 Polaris install post. So always coming up with new ideas. No Joke>:)

MK-1 & MK-2 Using 4012941 Polaris

https://www.kawasakiversys.com/foru...-1-mk-2-revised-2018-photos-2015-trigger.html
 

Premium Member
Joined
9,943 Posts
Discussion Starter · #62 ·
Polaris 4016868 / April 18,2019 / Scope & Meter/ Full Power

First with the crappy weather I failed to take a photo of my bike ripped apart, so I could measure the DC output.
Test equipment was a THS720P Techtronix scope, several Fluke 189 meters, a 8060A Fluke, a 8024B Fluke, 80i 1010 Fluke 1 to 1000 amp AC or DC hall effect amp clamp.Most of this will be of no interest as to test equipment for the average member here. The amps DC clamp is connected to a Fluke 8060 A which is equivalent to the much newer 189 Fluke which is also obsolete. The 8060A has superior shielding to anything available on the market with the exception of the 87 III, because the 1010 is a millivolt output and I have ac high frequency leads close to the meters I chose the 8060A for this task. My 189 are two versions the VDC of the battery is a newer 3 decimal place meter, that also can record min, max and average, when using this function a actual real time measurement is shown below, I used my 2 decimal place 189 for VAC.

For those wondering, what you see in precision meters is close to all I have ( 2 more on the shelf) as to total meters and test equipment about 1/15 of what I have.
Please note, I used my scope for a comparison of what the calculated measurements were compared to the display, this was to copare what a Fluke meter saw compared to the scope. I selected RMS for measuring, even though looking at the waveform it is nothing like a normal waveform you would see using RMS. The sole purpose was to show that checking a stator using a meter with the shunt or series regulator connected, that similar readings should occur. I stand behind my 3 phase stator test at 2000 fixed RPM, measuring VAC , with the regulator disconnected, you should have a balanced VAC within 1 VAC between phases. Holding the throttle by hand will not work, the idle screw is the only way, also bike needs to be off fast idle. The RPM is approximate, 1900 to 2100 is you goal . Getting the measurements within 5 minutes total and with the fan off, I included Vaders post in this thread as he did multiple RPM measurements.

So the short of it, the maximum output could possibly be 1.5 amp higher than measured, however my testing is slightly flawed in that the bike was at 190'F to 205'F , ( I have a thermo-Bob #4 for snow bikes on the discharge side of the cooling system with a 189 'F T stat, since the new flash the fan on temp was lowered upon request, so several times during the test my fan was running, the stator as at maximum temperature due to my load testing )I also had the fan running that draws about 5.5 Amp DC

On top of that the only cooling of the Polaris was convection air and the ambient temperature was 19'C . So under normal riding conditions in weather at or below 15'C

One other note, the current seen on my DC amp out does not reflect on base load, as I was running at times with the fan running but headlight off, also at times I had the Denali lights on and my LED headlight on, both being about equal to a regular low beam OEM headlight.

Permanent Magnet verses car alternator

Stator maximum output is achieved at 3500 to 4000 RPM, going higher accomplishes nothing, as you have a increased resistance of the magnet wire and have achieved maximum flux density of the stator. Explaining differently, a car alternator uses a regulator that outputs DC to a rotating wound rotor, by increasing the magnetic field we increase output off the DC current out, however you reach a point where we have reached maximum flux density of the rotor, but the lamination's of the stator is not at maximum flux density, and that is the reason you hear a distinct whine when boosting another car when you hit the gas, by increasing the RPM you reach maximum flux density of the stator = maximum DC current out.

Back to our alternator system, our bikes have a permanent magnet rotor , we are already at maximum flux density which is why at higher RPM the shunt regulator shorts out this excess energy. The series regulator switches or very similar to household light dimmers switches off the AC input to the regulator, therefore the actual load on the stator never goes above the actual demand of the bike electrics.


This is at 3500 to 4000 RPM note the 48.4 VAC ( this is the AC going in, or more accurately the AC being switched under a 12 amp DC load



Note the Fluke 189 showing 27.24 Max and 22.74 actual, the meter to the right 20.7 VAC, the fan kicked on during this photo, so volatge droped as current out increased, around 2000 RPM


Note this photo of 2 phases measured 3 minutes after last photo , note the VRMS shown , rounding off as 20 and 25 VAC, note one waveform is inverted ( channel #2 )


at idle , no headlight on, fan off and Denali on low, stator is hot but regulator was cooled down a bit



2000 RPM 12.4 amp DC and 15.57 VAC , 14.1 VDC fan running , no headlight.



2200 RPM 12.4 amp DC 14.37 VDC and 21 VAC

 

Super Moderator
Joined
20,751 Posts
Glen - I MAY not have as many multi-meters as YOU do... but I BET I have MORE torque-wrenches...!

:wink2:
 

Premium Member
Joined
9,943 Posts
Discussion Starter · #64 ·
Glen - I MAY not have as many multi-meters as YOU do... but I BET I have MORE torque-wrenches...!

:wink2:
three 1/2 inch drive, one 3/8 drive and one 1/4 inch drive
 

Super Moderator
Joined
20,751 Posts
Glen - I MAY not have as many multi-meters as YOU do... but I BET I have MORE torque-wrenches...!

:wink2:
three 1/2 inch drive, one 3/8 drive and one 1/4 inch drive
TWO half inch (one's a SNAP-ON); FOUR 3/8 inch drive (one's a SNAP-ON); and TWO 1/4 inch drive.

Let's see - that comes to EIGHT, so eight TRUMPS five...!, near as I can tell.>:)

:clap:

:D

Of course - THAT is spread over TWO countries....
 

Premium Member
Joined
9,943 Posts
Discussion Starter · #66 ·
Relay Box testing, related to Diode Failure

OK . several diode testing 101 instructions, not all meters are the same, however one is common on all meters when using diode test. follow your meters instructions , the diode symbol may also have a resistance range included, in the case of my 8024 B
I found a poor photo of my meter ( I have 2 of & in perfect working order, this one looks ready for the clouds) take note, the third slide up from the bottom extreme right shows 2K and diode. Short your leads out and you should get 0.00 on the meter, with the leads open circuit on the 8024B it displays 1 , no zeros or decimal place, this is equivalent to infinity, I highlighted the 2K because testing the diode forward may give a very weird reading or it may be 1, what we are looking is testing in reverse, if in forward on circuits with the coil and you get infinity , switch to a 100 or 1000 K ohms test. Typically the diode test uses a much higher voltage, say you have a 9 volt battery and a 2 cell AA battery, diode test will use the 9 volt one.
Next pay attention to your meter, it should have red and black , in the case of the 8024, note common is black and to the right it shows red V ohms and S , which is your positive lead.
I am going to refer to the black lead as I use electron flow which electrons flow towards the arrow , which is the cathode silver bar end, or electron flow is negative to positive , current flow is the reverse. Much easier to remember , black negative at the silver band is forward.
I will do all the simple ones stating the terminal # and black lead for forward, the reading on these should be around 0.69 to 0.89 , a reading of 0.00 is shorted ( test this by shorting your leads)

After thought for the difficult circuits in series with coil circuits and for those without a diode test black pin 12 red on 13 or black on 15 and red on 12, pick a ohms range that shows something besides 0.00 ohms, short out your leads, is the display 0.00 and the value across 12&13 say 00.7 ohms, if yes you can use this on the diode coil circuits. Basically we are looking for open or shorted diodes, also blocking, in the case of coil circuits using a higher ohms scale for reverse is important.
I will then do the simple ones for reverse using the black lead and terminal number again . Last will be the difficult ones which may need the use of a higher resistance scale as mentioned before.
Black pin 14 , red pin 13, should be 0.7 something
Black pin 15, red pin 12 " "
Black pin 12 , red pin 13 " " "
Black pin 12, red pin 15 should be infinity These are all reverse testing and should all be infinity
Black pin 13, red pin 12 " " "
Black pin 13, red pin 14 " ' "
All the following will be more difficult, I am going to suggest to put your meter on ohms with a 2000 ohm range to start , test pin 4 to pin 5 , this is the ECU coil and should be very close in resistance to all the other relays. Post this value.

OK back to diode test and like stated previously you may need to use a higher non diode test ohm range, we are looking for shorted diodes, in this case the value of pin 4 & 5 may be identical to the circuit under test.

Black pin 2, red pin 11 should read infinity Switch to ohms 10K or higher , same should be infinity
Black pin 1, red pin 11 " " " "
Black pin 11, red pin 1 should read similar in value to 4&5 coil resistance but slightly higher
Black pin 11 , red pin 2 "" this will be 0.7 ohms higher than 11 to 1 , doubt you will see this ( 2 diodes)
Black pin 16, red pin 12, may need to switch to 10K ohms or 100K ohms, should be infinity this is the critical one for notsocoolguy
Black pin 12, red pin 16 this is forward and should be the value of 4&5 plus the 0.7 diode value , you may need to use a 1000 to 2000 ohm range depending on the meter








 

Premium Member
Joined
9,943 Posts
Discussion Starter · #67 ·
PM / Polaris

So I got a PM today, FYI this is a 2015 650 Versys;
jaaklucas said:
So I installed the Polaris with Triumph harness and was wondering which thread to post to.Also....
Last year installed a Sparkbrite Eclipse voltage monitor. Shows green when everything is good but I noticed when warm it would show solid red at stop idling which is overcharging. As soon as Im moving back to green. Ive was stalling on doing the Polaris this spring and last week I noticed that at a stop it went red overcharging and then the LED turn signal went faster flashing. Never noticed that before. Anyways,I did the Polaris install and took it for a ride. Still the same overcharging and sometimes the turn signal hyperflash. What do you think,would the stator cause overcharging? When bikes moving the green comes on and stays on....
First I mention this all the time in my Polaris install threads, always test the stator before you change the regulator, you may have a shorted phase and or a grounded stator. Follow post #2 of this thread.
https://www.kawasakiversys.com/foru...testing-polaris-4016868-low-h-beams-dead.html
as many times it helps others, and instead of a individual response such as PM it offers insight to the whole forum.
Also you should be checking your engine ground and frame grounds.. The very first thing is to do my stator test at the stator plug, and let me know what method you used for the headlight relay.
Just a FYI, running with a phase loss or grounded phase can lead to ECU failure and Regulator Failure, more so with the China Y / Star connected stator, as the line voltage is 1.73 X phase voltage the Delta phase voltage and line voltage are the same.

I copied Sparkbrite, note , alternating Green / RED is as you say Over Charging, however you also mention at idle , that is impossible, just a case of the best place for that Sparkbrite is in the garbage, note I copied the chart to interpret that POS, red indicates 12.25 VDC . As tom your signal light, did you convert to LED signals and flasher?


>15.20v 鈻犫枲 Green / Red alternating over-charging 鈥 regulator problem not applicable
>13.20v 鈻 Green steady normal charging exceptional battery charge (uncommon)
>12.45v 鈻 Amber steady under-charging 鈥 alternator problem normal battery, charged and in good health
>12.25v 鈻犫枲 Red slow flashing not charging 鈥 battery low fair battery charge
>12.05v 鈥⑩ Red 2 flashes, repeating not charging 鈥 battery low low battery charge
>11.80v 鈥⑩⑩ Red 3 flashes, repeating not charging 鈥 battery very low very low battery charge
<11.80v 鈥⑩⑩⑩ Red 4 flashes, repeating not charging 鈥 battery very low consider renewing battery




More thought I assume you cut off the original regulator plug then used the triumph harness and either soldered or crimped to the appropriate wires. Make sure you have clean and tight battery posts, also check the battery voltage about 10 minutes after removing a battery tender, and post that, a bad battery becomes a load. battery should check around 12.7 to 12.9 VDC. frame grounds are also important, the charging system actually is directly connected to the loads and the battery is a actual load with the 30 amp main fuse between it and the positive regulator output.
Second thing is , make sure your idle is 1350 to 1400 RPM, I mention base load, which is not the following; having your high beam light on or fan running at idle at or below 1300 RPM expect to be very close to 13.2 to 12.9 VDC.

One further comment specifically the Sparkbrite after looking closely at the voltage ratings, me personally, I would throw it away the same as the one I had that was a copycat of the Heads Up . Our ideal charging system is 13.4 to 14.2 VDC
I installed this as several things come to mind, visible day or night, extremely accurate, the processor uses multiple green led in the 13.4 to 14.2 VDC, as you go above or below, the value between increments increases slightly.I have pressure washed this and included photos which shows all the components as shipped, I have tested this with my Fluke 189 and was very impressed with the accuracy, it takes just a glance, I don't need reading glasses or need to think what was the number in the display 13.0 OH Sh!T.



Note the yellow right of the 3 greens comes on around 14.3 to 14.5 VDC there is a second yellow, which comes on around 15.2 to 16 VDC



I was doing a fan on fan off cycle and you will note my T Bob bypass T stat is at about 212'F


So I have two values , the lower value or first value is the voltage to turn the existing led and the second value is what is the threshold to turn on the next higher value. As a example 1 green led, 12.60 VDC minimum to turn on to 13.09 VDC at 13.10 a second green comes on. So here goes;

1 orange 12.10 minimum to 12.19VDC single orange
2 orange 12.20 minimum to 12.59 VDC two orange
1 green 12.60 minimum to 13.09 VDC one green
2 green 13.10 minimum to 13.49 VDC two green
3 green 13.50 to 14.50 VDC, three green around 14.7 VDC the orange to the right of the 3 green comes on flashing, above 15 volts it stays on .

So a Condensed summary for those less technically inclined. Green is Good That is as long as 1 green led remains illuminated , your battery will be within 95% capacity, once you go / reduce to two orange you are discharging your battery, since this is current per hour going out = to voltage , it is hard to say what capacity you are losing. As a example our Versys uses a 10 amp hour battery, so the difference between what the stator puts out and what is being drawn from the battery may be for example 3 amp at 12.59 VDC the two orange or ( watts is voltage times current 12.59 X 3 amp=37.7 watts)37.7 watt /HR , our battery is rated 10 amps X 12.9 VDC = 129 watts / HR ( base load is between 160 and 170 watts at 14.2 VDC ) so using those values you could probably ride for 3 hours before your fuel injection and everything started shutting down.
Alert with no stator output, you have less than a hour before shutting down, in a hours time I can be 60 miles or 100 KM from home, a very expensive tow.
 

Registered
Joined
826 Posts
So I installed the Polaris with Triumph harness.Also....
Last year installed a Sparkbrite Eclipse voltage monitor. Shows green when everything is good but I noticed when warm it would show solid red at stop idling which is overcharging. As soon as Im moving back to green. Ive was stalling on doing the Polaris this spring and last week I noticed that at a stop it went red overcharging and then the LED turn signal went faster flashing. Never noticed that before. Anyways,I did the Polaris install and took it for a ride. Still the same overcharging and sometimes the turn signal hyperflash. What do you think,would the stator cause overcharging? When bikes moving the green comes on and stays on....

All fixed,I had my idle set too low! Last year I was dicking around seeing how low I could go to minimize 1st gear clunk.Back to 1350-1400...
 

Premium Member
Joined
9,943 Posts
Discussion Starter · #69 ·
Mobil 1 15/50 / Thermo Bob

All fixed,I had my idle set too low! Last year I was dicking around seeing how low I could go to minimize 1st gear clunk.Back to 1350-1400...
Two things that are significantly different, using Mobil 1 about a 60% reduction , also the Thermo-Bob brings the engine temperature and the oil up much faster, clunking is caused by reduced oil between clutch plates, my engine is at at least 160 to 170"F before I start riding, first thing I do is start the bike, check tire pressure, put on my gear, reset my GPS trip and his time at the temp I said. At or below 12'C I need about 6-8 minutes to achieve that.
 

Registered
Joined
826 Posts
All fixed,I had my idle set too low! Last year I was dicking around seeing how low I could go to minimize 1st gear clunk.Back to 1350-1400...

I ran it today. When the fan came on( more quickly now after flash) it went red. I went up to 1400 and the red went away. Maybe time to check the battery,3 years 52000 now. Whats an acceptable voltage for a battery when its sat for a day?
 

Premium Member
Joined
9,943 Posts
Discussion Starter · #71 ·
Battery / Yuasa OEM AGM

All fixed,I had my idle set too low! Last year I was dicking around seeing how low I could go to minimize 1st gear clunk.Back to 1350-1400...

I ran it today. When the fan came on( more quickly now after flash) it went red. I went up to 1400 and the red went away. Maybe time to check the battery,3 years 52000 now. Whats an acceptable voltage for a battery when its sat for a day?
Generally I check battery voltage before should be 12.5 to 12.7 < this is with a Fluke meter, I look for 12.9 after a ride and waiting 10 to 15 minutes for things to stabilize. Also I recommend using a battery tester and load test it. Many times the battery may check close to good but may not do 3 repeated starts within 30 minutes with good results, this is a sign of low fluid and also one downfall to having the idle set too low, discharging the battery numerous cycles is the fact that once you crank the throttle there is no limit on the charge current, keep in mind the battery will get warm from engine heat, so the Yuasa AGM is a very forgiving battery, however the closer you can maintain battery voltage to 14.2 VDC the more years you will get out of the battery.
I mention the 10 to 15 minutes after stopping, if the voltage was 12.5 VDC before starting and comes very close to the same after a ride and 15 minutes, it is time to replace it, the reason is, it becomes a load all the time you ride, in other words, if you had it on a charger designed for deep cycle batteries, it would never go into deep cycle and could possibly be drawing 3 amp 24/7 = roughly 42 watts load on your stator.

https://northeastbattery.com/top-5-reasons-batteries-fail-prematurely/
 

Registered
Joined
826 Posts
I finally got around to doing my Polaris install. I studied the topic for a while,bought a used Polaris and Triumph harness online. I decided on soldered connections as I dont trust my crimping skills. I looked at the install by Fasteddie with Onewizards help as well as Quexpresses install. Onewizard showed me how to do a proper butt-splice for connecting the main wires,very clean. Soldered then shrink wrapped. Then wrapped the five wires with a split sheathing bundle wrap. I went with the jumped wire in the headlight relay for fixing the parasitic power drain. After soldering the jumped wire,I coated with some black goo connector coating and electrical tape.
 

Attachments

Premium Member
Joined
9,943 Posts
Discussion Starter · #73 ·
Regulator / Battery Life

Somewhat related as to the shunt regulator is battery life. Something many don't understand. I was recently buying a led brake light used on trailers as I have a gearbrake module and don't wish to change any of my other add ons. I was using our Toyota car, I had a Fluke 189 meter with me and wanted to test this at the store , naturally measuring the current is only useful if you also measure the voltage. I was surprised at the 13.2 VDC at idle and the 13.6 VDC above idle. I wasn't going to bring my scope into the picture but it is related, I have a 4 amp hour battery, so my fast charge puts out 1 amp, which means I need four hours for full charge, if I charge within the scope it takes 24 hours for full charge, using the same 1 amp output adapter, this may be too in depth but here I go, in the case of the scope , it is current limiting so that even with a dead battery it can function, however some use a reduced voltage for charging, which can lead to a reduced capacity / amp hour . Here is the problem, we have a 10 amp hour battery, say starting uses 20 amp for 1 minute = .333 amp hour, which means you need to charge a minimum of 0.3 amp for 1 hour minimum. If you charge below 13.2VDC , it could take several hours to charge the battery, repeating this over a week or more your 10 amp hour battery may be closer to 6 amp hour.
Now the other thing that can happen is over charging, which can be a common problem with the shunt regulator, I have tested several Kawasaki shunt regulator, 2007 , 2008 and 2015, all of them produced a minimum 14.5 VDC and all of them went as high as 15.1 VDC before starting to work /shunt excess voltage ( the shunt is a simple 3 phase rectifier with a shunt circuit to ground, activated by over voltage, a slow increase will produce 15.1 VDC before shunting, which means you could be at 14.9 volts all day, unless you momentarily hit the switch on VDC level, sort of a cut in VDC and a drop out VDC wihch would be 14.4 to 14.5 VDC).
What happens is between the heat of the motor and excess charge voltage , the electrolyte evaporates and your amp /HR capacity diminishes. Using a series regulator, it starts working the instant your stator produces power, and typical volts DC is 14.2 maximum, which explains why my Yuasa batteries last 5 to 6 years on the Kawasaki Versys ( my 07 lasted 6 years and my 2015 is still on the OEM battery)
This is a very basic explanation, many other factors but in reality the worst component of the Versys is the regulator, from what I am seeing it looks like the 2017 1000 ninja uses a series regulator, so Kawasaki is improving things.
 

Premium Member
Joined
9,943 Posts
Discussion Starter · #74 ·
Series or Shunt Regulator / Fake /Testing

So the 2017 650 Versys regulator part number changed, also I have seen a 2017 Ninja 1000 regulator that looks identical to Polaris . So there is some doubt about what has changed in 2017.

Some of this was from this thread https://www.kawasakiversys.com/foru...15-a.html?highlight=stator+testing+phase+loss
Note:
One thing I have never mentioned, between my test and Kawasaki. Kawasaki requests 4000 or 5000 RPM, at that speed the rotor is producing maximum flux density, at 2000 RPM it is about 25% of maximum.

Note Added This in February 2017 To Test for Phase Loss on a Series regulator under Actual Load Conditions

A better way would be using a small AC clamp on current probe rated for 400 HZ @ 25 Amp AC, pretty sure no one on this forum has one.So I came up with this:
This test is to prove all 3 phases of a Series regulator are functioning, such as Polaris or Compu Fire. What you will need is some straight pins, needles or jewelers screwdrivers, to insert from the stator wire side of the connector. You are measuring VAC, you need to set idle around 1800 to 2000 RPM, have the headlight on, measure A to B, B to C, C to A , record the readings, they should all be around 16 to 18 Volts AC , battery voltage should be 14.2 VDC. If you get one of the phases reading 22 to 24 VAC or more, that phase isn't conducting/ being fired, which means you have a single phase condition on the stator. The stator is rated at something like 24 amp output, phase current is rated at 14 amp maximum, if you have a phase loss, you will get a single phase condition, with a maximum 24 amp available, hence the burnt stator.

If you have any questions ask me. Very little about induction I don't know, that has been my specialty for over 40 years.
The difference is that, at 25% flux density, a small turn to turn short or turn to line short will have a large impact on the AC output. At 100% output, the imbalance between phases will be less noticeable.


September 2019*******************************************************

I copied some of my post from another area. Testing for a phase loss or a malfunctioning Series Regulator is very similar to proving if you have a shunt or series regulator.
Since I have possibly got a post somewhere on this forum but spent 10 minutes looking for it, I figured I would start over.
The original post to prove all 3 phases of the series regulator are working is still valid above. I will point out several things, I recommend to use the idle screw and set idle close to 2000 RPM. Pay attention. We are testing the regulator under normal load with the fan Off and low beam light only, no extra loads, I know the stators on all MK-1;-2;-3 can output base load and provide 30 watts more than needed at 1600 to 2000 RPM.

So you need straight pins, needles or some other means to slip into the plug from the stator, best is in the back side of the connector from the stator. You need a meter that can measure volts AC & DC volts, possibly some light alligators to connect the pins to the meter leads.

So start the bike, once off fast idle adjust idle to close to 2000 RPM, I would say you could measure the VDC at the battery about 4 minutes after the bike has been at 2000 RPM. Note the VDC, also I would suggest at the end of the testing to place the meter on the battery for several minutes at around 1450 to 1500 RPM, watch closely, using your throttle accelerate slowly up to 2500 RPM. If you see upwards of 15.0 VDC then suddenly dropping to 14.4 to 14.5 you have a shunt regulator. However if the VDC remains at 14.2 to 14.4 no matter even if you hit 6000 RPM then this is a series regulator This is simply a FYI

The real test


Again we are at around 2000 RPM using the idle screw, this time we are connected to the AC wires from the stator measuring volts AC,if you want you can move the pins and measure A to B, B to C, C to A, your call. Make sure the fan isn't running and only low beam, no extra loads.

Now I want you to do the same thing with the throttle, slowly accelerate up to 2500 RPM or even higher. If it is a series regulator and you hit 5000 RPM expect to see something like 36 VAC to 46 VAC.

If it is a shunt regulator, expect to see roughly 16 to 18 Vac at idle or at 9000 RPM, (the higher you go you may see a 2 or 3 volt increase 9 21 VAC maximum at 5000 RPM, anything above 5000 RPM has no difference as the stator is magnetically saturated )with the shunt regulator, this is due to voltage drop caused by a increase of current shunting / wasting to ground. That is correct, our 650 outputs 330 Watts and my base load with Led headlight and led city lights is 160 Watts, so at 5000 RPM I would have had 170 watts shunting to ground as heat if I had my OEM Shunt regulator installed. Since I have my Polaris in now, my stator outputs base load or whatever demand / load I have, never 330 Watts.
 

Premium Member
Joined
9,943 Posts
Discussion Starter · #75 · (Edited)
Stator Testing / Loading/ Polaris 4012941&4016868 Discussion Thread

This was formed to allow discussion from the How To Forum , Polaris 4016868 50 amp regulator and the MK-1&-2&-3
 

Registered
Joined
268 Posts
New and improved trigger option

I replaced the stock Regulator with a Polaris 4012941 today, using the Triumph harness. After some deliberation about the headlight trigger, I found a solution I think is better than the others presented here - I use the starter button signal through a latching relay circuit to trigger the headlight. The benefit of this setup over the other relay trigger options I've seen offered is that the headlight remains off until the starter button is pressed, meaning it is not causing a drain on the battery when the ignition is initially turned on. The benefit of this over the brake light trigger is that you don't have to remember to touch the brake to turn the headlight on.

Keep in mind that the starter headlight cut out still works, so the starter button flips the new relay at the same time that it cuts the headlight out momentarily during starting. Then the headlight comes on just as it does with the stock trigger from the OEM regulator. In this respect, this is functionally equivalent to the factory headlight trigger. The only difference is that if the bike fails to start, the headlight will still come on after releasing the starter button. But then it will cut out momentarily while the starter button is pressed in repeated attempts to start the bike.

All the signals can be located at the relay housing underneath the base of the gas tank. Cut the pin #2 black wire from the relay housing and tape off the open end opposite the connector. Attach the cut black wire from the relay housing to the "87" contact (output) from the new relay. Tap the Red/Black wire from pin 16 of the relay housing connectors and run a wire through a diode to the "86" contact at the new relay. Tap a switched 12V signal (I used the gray wire at the relay housing connector) and run a wire to the "30" contact of the new relay. The "85" contact goes to a ground wire (Black/Yellow at the relay housing). Attach a diode from the output (87) to the trigger input of the relay (86) - this creates the latch that must be isolated from the starter button signal by means of the earlier diode. I also added a suppression diode from ground (85) to the trigger (86) for good measure.

That's it. So far, so good. Seems to be working great. Did not add a diode at the starter relay and have not seen a need to do so yet.

Also, happy post #100 to me!
 

Registered
Joined
268 Posts
New and improved trigger option

I replaced the stock Regulator with a Polaris 4012941 today, using the Triumph harness. After some deliberation about the headlight trigger, I found a solution I think is better than the others presented here - I use the starter button signal through a latching relay circuit to trigger the headlight. The benefit of this setup over the other relay trigger options I've seen offered is that the headlight remains off until the starter button is pressed, meaning it is not causing a drain on the battery when the ignition is initially turned on. The benefit of this over the brake light trigger is that you don't have to remember to touch the brake to turn the headlight on.

Keep in mind that the starter headlight cut out still works, so the starter button flips the new relay at the same time that it cuts the headlight out momentarily during starting. Then the headlight comes on just as it does with the stock trigger from the OEM regulator. In this respect, this is functionally equivalent to the factory headlight trigger. The only difference is that if the bike fails to start, the headlight will still come on after releasing the starter button. But then it will cut out momentarily while the starter button is pressed in repeated attempts to start the bike.

All the signals can be located at the relay housing underneath the base of the gas tank. Cut the pin #2 black wire from the relay housing and tape off the open end opposite the connector. Attach the cut black wire from the relay housing to the "87" contact (output) from the new relay. Tap the Red/Black wire from pin 16 of the relay housing connectors and run a wire through a diode to the "86" contact at the new relay. Tap a switched 12V signal (I used the gray wire at the relay housing connector) and run a wire to the "30" contact of the new relay. The "85" contact goes to a ground wire (Black/Yellow at the relay housing). Attach a diode from the output (87) to the trigger input of the relay (86) - this creates the latch that must be isolated from the starter button signal by means of the earlier diode. I also added a suppression diode from ground (85) to the trigger (86) for good measure.

That's it. So far, so good. Seems to be working great. Did not add a diode at the starter relay and have not seen a need to do so yet.

Also, happy post #100 to me!


Edited By onewizard;
Wiring with reference to diodes , I would suggest a IN4003 or better, the last diggit is the voltage, typically I use IN4007 as they are more readily available and much cheaper, the above circuit uses 3 diodes, two are blocking and the third is a discharge / free wheeling diode to quench / arc suppression .
Step one ; Attach the cut black wire from the relay housing to the "87" contact (output) from the new relay pin #87, also attach diode A cathode to pin 87 Diode A anode gets connected to pin #86
Step two; Tap the Red/Black wire from pin 16 of the relay housing connectors and run a wire through a diode B cathode side , the anode side of Diode B is connected to pin 86 , also connect Diode C anode to pin 86 this is the discharge diode
Step three;Tap a switched 12V signal (I used the gray wire at the headlight relay pin #3 housing connector) and run a wire to the "30" contact of the new relay.
Step four;The "85" contact goes to a ground wire (Black/Yellow at the relay housing). Also Diode C cathode goes to pin #85
Summary all the diodes anodes are connected to pin #86 of the aux. relay


 

Premium Member
Joined
9,943 Posts
Discussion Starter · #78 · (Edited)
Complicated / Not Flawed Circuit

I replaced the stock Regulator with a Polaris 4012941 today, using the Triumph harness. After some deliberation about the headlight trigger, I found a solution I think is better than the others presented here - I use the starter button signal through a latching relay circuit to trigger the headlight. The benefit of this setup over the other relay trigger options I've seen offered is that the headlight remains off until the starter button is pressed, meaning it is not causing a drain on the battery when the ignition is initially turned on. The benefit of this over the brake light trigger is that you don't have to remember to touch the brake to turn the headlight on.

Keep in mind that the starter headlight cut out still works, so the starter button flips the new relay at the same time that it cuts the headlight out momentarily during starting. Then the headlight comes on just as it does with the stock trigger from the OEM regulator. In this respect, this is functionally equivalent to the factory headlight trigger. The only difference is that if the bike fails to start, the headlight will still come on after releasing the starter button. But then it will cut out momentarily while the starter button is pressed in repeated attempts to start the bike.

All the signals can be located at the relay housing underneath the base of the gas tank. Cut the pin #2 black wire from the relay housing and tape off the open end opposite the connector. Attach the cut black wire from the relay housing to the "87" contact (output) from the new relay. Tap the Red/Black wire from pin 16 of the relay housing connectors and run a wire through a diode to the "86" contact at the new relay. Tap a switched 12V signal (I used the gray wire at the relay housing connector) and run a wire to the "30" contact of the new relay. The "85" contact goes to a ground wire (Black/Yellow at the relay housing). Attach a diode from the output (87) to the trigger input of the relay (86) - this creates the latch that must be isolated from the starter button signal by means of the earlier diode. I also added a suppression diode from ground (85) to the trigger (86) for good measure.

That's it. So far, so good. Seems to be working great. Did not add a diode at the starter relay and have not seen a need to do so yet.

Also, happy post #100 to me!

Closer view of the post made me aware the latching relay was not the headlight relay but the added auxiliary relay today Sept. 12

I modified my original Polaris install instruction several years ago and pointed out that I no longer recommend using the brake trigger, you could have saved yourself a relay and all the extra time , by connecting pin #2 to pin #3.

My 2015 is still using the brake trigger in that I can quickly turn my headlight off ( hit the start button for less than a second) while idling waiting for traffic to move when I am looking at 3 or more minutes of being at idle in hot weather with the fan running, the big difference is I have the Denali lights on high 90% of my riding, and they come on from my key switch accessory wiring, so both high and low beam could fail and I could still drive home in the dark.

The diode was only used for those using the brake trigger. Most conversions in the last year use pin 2 & 3 of the headlight relay ( I have coached quite a number in the UK in 2019 using PM ) The only time a relay is used is if the person doesn't wish to take the tank off and then uses the original wiring set up, cutting into the start solenoid ground with the NO relay, the relay is turned on with the tail light wiring. The only flaw with that circuit is a bad contact could cause the headlight relay to drop out and you wouldn't be able to start the bike.

Added Sept. 12, 2019 ;

So I have given more thought to this latest trigger discussion, I think in this we have lost sight of why a trigger was even needed, the addition of a relay was needed when many of us had the CompuFire regulator as it was the root cause of discharging the battery as was found by me to be the headlight relay coil circuit at approx. 0.036 amp. My early post mentioned no relay needed anymore after discovering this, many have a difficult time following my instructions without adding a relay to the mix.
So if you decide to take the tank off and cut pin #2 of the headlight relay why bother with all this triggering nonsense. Hook the relay coil to pin #3 to 85 and 86 to ground . Cut the black pin #2 of the headlight relay about 1 inch from the socket, solder or crimp on a wire to both ends, connect those to pin 30 and 87, done!! You are now back to original wiring, that headlight will not come on until your motor is running and producing 12 volts DC.
 

Registered
Joined
268 Posts
Thanks for the feedback, but I'm failing to see how I've implemented a flawed circuit. Cutting the black wire and connecting pin 2 to pin 3 (Gray wire, switched power to the headlight relay) would trigger the headlight with the keyed ignition. All I've done is redirect that trigger from the gray wire through a relay that is switched by the starter button, so that switched power does not reach pin 2 until the starter button is itself pressed.
 

Premium Member
Joined
9,943 Posts
Discussion Starter · #80 · (Edited)
Thanks for the feedback, but I'm failing to see how I've implemented a flawed circuit. Cutting the black wire and connecting pin 2 to pin 3 (Gray wire, switched power to the headlight relay) would trigger the headlight with the keyed ignition. All I've done is redirect that trigger from the gray wire through a relay that is switched by the starter button, so that switched power does not reach pin 2 until the starter button is itself pressed.
Sept. 12, 2019
A little wider awake today, I missed the latching relay which was added, the headlight relay is also a latching relay. Duplicating this circuit with a diode and adding a free wheeling diode is something both of us could do in the dark, I doubt that 5% of the members converting to a series regulator could do this. Also the location of the cathode and anode would be a standard I would normally add.

BTW thanks for posting in this area, I created it for new members with minimum posts and to keep technical info within the forum members. So I will start again:

Start sequence #1 -push the start button causes the start Relay coil circuit to energize, this sends a positive signal to the start solenoid [ for explanation purposes of the solenoid, I am going to say terminal #1 is positive and terminal #2 is negative ground, this solenoid is located at the 30 amp main fuse]

Headlight relay coil circuit pin #2 use to go to the 3 phase power and pull in and latch the headlight relay once 10 volts or more was produced , the coil circuit ground of the headlight relayis connected to terminal #1 of the start solenoid

Stall after headlight is latched on the instant the start button is pushed and during cranking the start relay energizes the start solenoid terminal #1 with a Positive polarity that very instant it turns positive the headlight relay
drops out because we have a positive on both side of the headlight relay coil. The only way the headlight can remain on while starting is if the contacts are fused together. This circuit is used on all Kawasaki bikes I spent hours tracing this and understanding it. To go a step further, lets say for whatever reason you had a short within the start solenoid coil circuit, during the process the coil open circuited. You were able to short out the start solenoid contacts and get the bike going. You would not have a headlight on , that is it would be impossible . The headlight relay coil ground current passes through the terminal #1 of the start solenoid to terminal #2 of the start solenoid, which happens to be ground for both the start solenoid and the headlight relay.

Your circuit is complicated and totally unnecessary, the fact your auxiliary relay is also a latch relay and will remain on after the headlight comes on works but the collapsing field of the start solenoid is actually a flaw, the trigger is the 1 phase tapped going to pin#2 of the headlight relay which contains a diode within.

I posted the latest easy set up if you have the tank removed, cut #2 black wire 1.5 inches from the relay box, tape the end going to the 3 phase power, connect the black to pin #3 , that is solder to or use a positap, your done, the headlight will come on the instant you key on, it will go out during the start sequence and automatically come on. No relay or other wiring needed.
 
61 - 80 of 155 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top