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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
April 2020 I will be editing anything to do with series regulators and Polaris installs .If someone has a question post in this thread or related threads of Technical.


Regulator / Shunt verses Series


I got a couple questionable looks today when I mentioned I am replacing my brand new 2015 regulator. I like where they mounted it, however one consideration I would suggest is to extract the pins from the OEM socket, cut the wire at the crimp, all wiring is way too short. You could order the socket kit from the post above if you wanted to restore to original, word of caution, that style of crimp requires a special crimper. I will post pictures of how I did my compufire and you could do the same for Polaris.

So, the main event:
Most equipment whether a electric motor or what is referred to as switch gear, or outlets in your home have a rating. Your duplex outlet is on a 15 amp breaker, the wire is rated to carry 15 amp, 15 X 120 = 1800 watts, however most equipment on that 15 amp circuit has a rating of 1500 watts or less.
Your wiring and breaker etc has a 80% rating, that is it isn't rated to carry 1800 watts continuously, which is 100% rated . Most equipment is rated the same way, throw in a higher ambient temperature and you need to de-rate your equipment even more--so that 80% rating becomes 70% or 60%.I hope this makes sense.
Much like a human being, hot weather and exposure to the sun , heat stroke is possible and precautions need to be taken, this applies to everything electric, heat is number one killer--you've heard "the magic smoke escaped", so having a crude electrical regulator in 2016 where it forces the stator to run 100% whenever possible makes no sense, especially since technology has been around and produced for over 10 years ie. Compu-Fire for one.

So this is where it makes no sense installing a shunt regulator and rumors have it that the 2015 has more power--we'll see. ( 2017 , further testing by me shows this is the same stator as the 2007 MK-1, same output, just a better method of cross connections and output connections)
A shunt regulator makes the stator run at 100% all the time it is above 3000 RPM, and run at maximum available output below 3000 RPM

The series regulator , say your total load is 10 amp DC ( 40% load), injectors, fuel pump and headlight , city lights and tail light, ignition, and your cell phone.I picked 25 amp rather than 23 amp for calculation purposes --and don't know the rating of the 2015, ( 10 amp / 25 amp= 40%).

With the series regulator ,stator is running at 40% load all the time, no matter what the RPM, So which stater do you think will fail first the 40% loaded one or the 100% loaded one? Plus it isn't magic, conversion from HP to electricity is at best 50% efficient , so you are burning fuel to heat up the environment, wasting 60% of the electricity produced.

Still not convinced, at idle the shunt and series regulators are equal, generally the loads of the Versys are equal to or slightly less than stator output, when we go above idle, the shunt regulator shorts out the excess above 14.2 VDC ( recent testing of several shunt regulators, including my 2015, has found that you can reach upwards of 14.8 to 15 Volts Before the regulator kicks in, resulting in it dropping to 14.5 volts, many devices made for a 12 volt system have a failure rate in the 15 VDC range, just keep that in mind, I have heard of ECU failures, but nothing that linked the failure to the regulator, on both Compu Fire and Polaris I have never seen it exceed 14.3 VDC). The series works in reverse, it is full on at idle giving what is needed to maintain 14.2 VDC , once we go above idle and attempt to exceed 14.2 VDC the series regulator starts to switch off, the higher we go in RPMs the faster it switches off, so the stator only sees the load demanded using the Series Regulator.

So the shunt regulator and stator are always going through a heat cool cycle as you go from idle to 5000 6000 RPM, so this eventually causes the magnet wire coating to fail --hence Burnt stator
 

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Regulator / Series / Shunt / Star / Delta /explained and Technical Info 2017

Stators fail in multiple ways, but are generally simple to troubleshoot. A stator almost always fails due to heat buildup causing an insulation failure of the wire. Keep in mind that a stator is composed of hundreds of feet of very fine wire, with very thin insulation, wound at relatively high tension around a metal core. The stator lives a high stress life, always surrounded by heat. The stator itself produces heat, as it is a by-product of current generation as the magnetic flywheel spins around it. On most engines (specifically 4-stroke's) the stator lives in a bath of oil from the crankcase. While this oil does provide cooling functions as the stator is immersed in it, the ambient temperature is very high as the oil is heated by engine operation.

The stator generally fails from a hot-spot of the wire's insulation wearing through, resulting in two types of short-circuit failures. If the insulation fails somewhere in the middle of a winding, a short circuit occurs in the coil. The remaining wire in the coil after the short is no longer in the circuit, and the winding's output drops by the percentage of the coil that is bypasses. On a charging coil, this is often not immediately apparent, as the stator may still produce enough current to keep the battery marginally charged for a time, but it will start to be noticeable as the battery is never fully charged. The short will often get worse, or occur at other locations on the winding, continually reducing the output. Taking a resistance reading of the coil and comparing it to the technical resistance specifications of the stator windings will help you troubleshoot this type of failure.

The other common type of short-circuit failure on a stator is a short to the stator core, engine case, or commonly called 'ground'. This type of failure occurs when a wire's insulation melts, or is worn through, and allows the wire strand to touch the stator core. The stator core is grounded to the motorcycle chassis through it's mounting bolts. This type of short generally completely destroys the stator coil's output, resulting in no charging or ignition current output. It will often be noticeable as a dead battery, or no spark produced by the ignition system. Keep in mind that the wires exiting the stator to attach to the bikes wiring harness can also have the insulation nicked, or melted, and cause the same kind of failures outside of the windings on the stator poles.

http://racetechelectric.com/ft-734-tech-support.html This is a excellent link ***Onewizard
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The stator generally fails from a hot-spot of the wire's insulation wearing through, resulting in two types of short-circuit failures. If the insulation fails somewhere in the middle of a winding, a short circuit occurs in the coil.

Taking a resistance reading of the coil and comparing it to the technical resistance specifications of the stator windings will help you troubleshoot this type of failure.

.

http://racetechelectric.com/ft-734-tech-support.html
I am going to jump in here and say that the average ohmmeter will never find this problem, for two reasons, one the difference of one or two shorted turns may be .05 ohms, most leads are in the range of .8 to 1.2 ohms.A reading that small will be very difficult to interpret no matter if it is a digital meter or analogue meter.

A far more accurate test would be to run the bike at idle, using a alternate battery source, or with a charger on your battery, have the plug disconnected at the regulator and measure the ac voltage , line 1 ( BK-1) to 2 ( BK-2) , then 2 to 3 ( BK-3) and finally 3 to 1., if you have a short or shorted turns , there will be significant differences in the values.
Look in the manual 16-32 , says to disconnect A, getting two test leads in on the contacts is almost impossible, however the plug on the regulator , BK-1 to BK-3 , are easy to access, see 16-34. The manual says 42 volts AC @ 4000 RPM ( see 16-32), I see no need to run at 4000 RPM, other than as a final measurement to prove it will produce 42 or more volts.
At idle, all measurements should be within 2 volts of each other, if you want to crank it to 4000 RPM , you should see between 42 and 54 volts AC.

Brief explanation of why running is more accurate and what happens. A shorted turn, basically reduces the field strength of the magnetic field ( shorts out the magnetic field) , basically the magnetic field is concentrated in the area of the short, this produces excess current, therefore heat and more turns become shorted, eventually resulting in failure of the alternator.

The alternator has several coils in series, approx. six per phase, so when connected in a Y or star 3 phase system it is 12 coils between phases, it gets more complicated as to calculations of voltage ( root 3 comes into this for voltage), however the total 42 volts AC is produced by 12 coils between phases. One shorted coil or pole piece may cause a 3 or 4 volt reduction of voltage output, but because it is permanent magnet, it could cause a reduction of current output by 50%.
If you are now totally confused, feel free to ask, I did this for a living 30 years ago.:goodluck:
 

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"Fundamental Problems for Permanent Magnet Alternators-

There are fundamental physical difficulties in constructing a generator with permanent magnets, that has to operate over a large rpm range. Hence all manufactures using this principle fight with the following issues:

鈥ery large currents cause very high temperatures inside the windings of the stator.

鈥ery high voltages at high rpm cause breakdown and shorts in the insulation materials.

鈥emperature cycles inside the stator cause mechanical expansion and compression. On top of this comes vibrations, so over time the insulation materials will crack and deteriorate.

鈥he subsequent voltage regulator must be able to convert a very large input voltage range to the output 13.5 Volts.

On top of these problems, Honda and many other manufactures unfortunately use a very unelegant rectifier/regulator design called a shunt regulator which causes much higher currents in the stator windings than a more ideal design would. The shunt type deliberately shorts some of the stator windings when the output voltage exceeds the desired level, thereby allowing huge currents to flow in the windings. These currents create a rotating magnetic field which counteracts the rotating magnetic field from the permanent magnet, and thus effectively reduces the induced voltage. These shorting currents do not dissipate much power outside the alternator as the shorting voltage is low (it is a thyristor or a FET which creates the short), but they cause extra heat dissipation and hence extra temperature rise inside the stator windings.

The Shunt Regulator-

The shunt regulator is called 'shunt' because it literally puts a shunt across two stator outputs each time the voltage exceeds a certain limit. The first time I heard about this principle, I refused to believe that anything so stupid had been designed, but I was proven wrong. The shunt regulator can be constructed with lower production cost and has hence been chosen as standard, even if it means much higher current loading on the stator windings.
The shunt regulator uses high shorting currents in the stator windings to create an extra rotating magnetic field counteracting the rotating field from the permanent magnet. The resulting magnetic field is hence reduced and so are the induced voltages. The high shorting currents cause extra heat dissipation in the stator windings and are probably the reason for having high failure rates on this component.

The Serial Regulator-

A rectifier/regulator design of a different type called a series regulator uses disconnection rather than shorting to obtain regulation. It therefore has inherently lower current load on the stator windings with potentially lower stator failure rates.

Symptom: Battery runs flat and bike wont start-

This happened for me with my one-year old Honda CBF1000A. As it was still under warranty, I simply took it to the Honda dealer where the stator was replaced.
According to what I have read on the forums, Honda is often (but not always) replacing stators free of charge (you see the ambiguity of this expression in this context ? ;-) even if the bike is no longer under warranty.

It could also have been the battery which was not working properly, but a charging test will pretty easily reveal if this is the case.

It might also be due to a failing rectifier/regulator, but it is not my impression that this is often the reason. To get a better feeling of this, I would like to hear from you if you have positively experienced a blown rectifier/regulator unit on any of these bikes.

Failure: Stator Shorted to Ground-

A stator with a winding shorted to ground on a CBR600 will not charge the battery, even if putting out 65 VAC from each phase at 6000 rpm. The regulator is simply not able to operate correctly with a non-floating stator.

Failure: Blown Diode or FET in Rectifier/Regulator-

In case one of the diodes (or one of the FETs if such are used instead of diodes) in the rectifier/regulator has been blown, only two of the three windings will have to deliver all the required power, with consequent overheating of the windings and a fried stator as result.
By constructing a break-out connector with 3 small resistors e.g. 0.1 Ohm each in series with the stator outputs, it is possible with a simple AC voltmeter to verify proper symmetrical current load on all three windings."

http://www.fireblader.dk/i_files/cbr1000rr/mc032.htm This is another excellent link, highly technical, covers stator, regulator styles and permanent magnet, to name a few
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Copied one of my former posts, easier than the links
the winding dope for both a Y and a Delta

Delta which is what OEM is;
44 turns per pole of 18 gauge magnet wire per pole, I would try and get class H---( OEM looks like a class C or F)

length of 18 gauge is 96" per pole, 576" per phase plus 20"= 596" and 1788" total to rewind delta = 150 feet approx.of copper in OEm

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y connected
15 gauge magnet wire, 25 turns per pole= 56" X 6 poles =332" plus 20= 352" or 29.5 feet per phase or approx. 90 feet of 15 gauge connected Y to do a complete rewind

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
as you can see, 60 feet less to wind Y and 450 total turns on Y as opposed to 792 turns on delta-------advantages and disadvantages for each, one advantage of Y is less insulation----as a example if I subtract 25 from 44 = 19 X .004 = .076 inches, I gain roughly the thickness of two 18 gauge wires with less turns, the .004 is the insulation ( .002 on each side);

I am posting this more for interest than anything, this is one very difficult thing to do, especially if you have large fingers, not that it matters as you will need to come up with some sort of winding tool similar to a plastic straw.
 

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In answer to a request/ question from "onewizard": I just checked the NO-LOAD voltage on my 2015's stator.

At 2,300 rpm EACH coupled output (A - B; A - C; B - C) was 27 ACV, +-.

At 2,000 rpm, ALL were 25 ACV +-.

Then I checked each to GROUND at 2,000 rpm, and got 15 ACV +-.

Earlier I've posted that the 2015s seem to be built w/ SOMEONE putting co$t above ALL ELSE, as wires seem to be JUST long enough (to make the bike...), but NOT quite long enough to remove, or to fiddle with! A real buggar, getting these things apart...!

:mad:

Another thing: I'm REALLY glad I bought the SERVICE MANUAL, as w/out it, I would STILL be trying to get this info for Glen....
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Finally, 24h after installing the cover, the silicone sealant is dry, oil refilled - the engine started with no problems on the battery with the generator disconnected.

I鈥檓 getting some 50V @ 5000rpm on each phase (the manual suggests 44V+)

With the generator connected to the regulator/rectifier I鈥檓 getting around 14.1 鈥 14.5V across the batter leads, so it鈥檚 charging (though I haven鈥檛 measure the charging current) (manual suggests 14.2V-15.2V)

After running the engine for some 20min, I鈥檓 not seeing any oil leaks, but I鈥檒l be watching for that over the next few rides. I will probably take the cover off again after let鈥檚 say some 1000km of ridding to have a look at the stator, make sure all is fine.

As to the question: 鈥渉ow hard can it be?鈥 Well, as you can see, it鈥檚 doable. I have not done it before, I don鈥檛 have any specialized tools, I do it for fun, not living. I saw a few videos online, got some great advise from Onewizard here, and that鈥檚 it. The reset is a matter of patience, attention to detail, and motivation (a bit like Grandma's knitting) >:)

Onewizard, I really want to thank you for sharing your knowledge and guiding me through the process!:thanx:

Next mod on my bike - a dash-mounted volt meter, to keep an eye on "things".

(I鈥檒l post the step-by-step video once I edit it, here is a raw preview)

[/QUOTE


That video is excellent, so I will explain what is happening, at idle you see it go to 14.54 VDC, increasing RPM the voltage drops to 14.2 VDC, bringing back to idle voltage goes from 14.2 to 14.54 VDC . The regulator only starts to shunt above 14.54 .

A series regulator is a constant draw on the stator, total load current is equal to total energy produced and only what is used, output is around 40% to 60 % of stator output , temperature is constant , I have explained this under regulators in burnt stator posting.

The shunt regulator causes stator to run at maximum output governed by the RPM of the motor, so the stator power produced is somewhere between full power and load current ALL the time.

If you want to make your project bullet proof, install a 4012941 Polaris regulator, after seeing what you did, you have some natural talent, videos help, you have a skill AND patience .

I just bought a used one ( Polaris regulator ), looking at setting it up, testing it then either keeping as a spare or selling it again. I have a compufire installed on my what appears to be a 06 , although registration says 07 . All my plastic is failing, and it is kept indoors, ABS mounting just crumbles, stress cracks , today I noticed cracks on the silver side panel, more silicone, as the mounting fell apart.

If you are interested in help on the regulator let me know. In a couple months we will have winter, the wreckers for snowmobiles start selling these regulators on eBay, about 40% of new, plus shipping.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Shindengen Regulators explained

Both series and shunt, buried in Stators

I have had several PM lately concerning replacement of a burnt stator, wishing to change out the shunt regulator.

http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_e/electro/catalog.html
http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_e/electro/reg.html

SH775 also 4012941 or Polaris SH775

From Invader

https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/160673-post36.html

Note
Added November / 2016 : explaining shunt and series difference / Delta and Y winding



Note For 2018 Below applies to China Stators wound Y or Star connected:
This was originally posted in reference to a For Sale of a RM Stator to explain the ability to use after market stators with excellent results provided you follow my advice:


However you need to convert to a Polaris at the same time as the install of the RM stator. This combination will equal or exceed the lifespan of OEM stator / regulator, gets complicated but line volts and phase volts are the same on Delta, Y or Star connected the line volts is 1.732 X phase volts.

To explain, measuring 48 VAC across A to B or B to C , etc. of a Delta winding, means we have 6 poles with 48 VAC across= 8 VAC across each pole So Delta is described as phase volts and line volts being equal, However Line current is 1.732 X phase current, so the Delta wound stator has 2 of 18 gauge copper wires per line out, so @ 25 amp AC
14.434 amp per 18 gauge phase current X 1.732 = 25 Amp AC


Star or Y connected 48 VAC A to star / Y = 48/ 1.732 =27.71 VAC across 6 poles=4.61 VAC across each pole, or almost half the voltage across each pole compared to Delta
To prove the math 1.732 X 27.71 VAC =47.995 VAC , or A star B, B star C or C star A all equal 47.995 VAC Phase to phase
Y or Star connected current , line current and phase current are equal, that is the 25 amp per line out is 25 amp on 1 of 18 gauge wires . So that is why it is imperative to install a Polaris regulator, as normal continuous load is about 60% of maximum or 25 amp X 60%= 15 amp or the same as the delta wound 18 gauge wire.

So a RM stator with a shunt regulator would have 25 amp on one 18 gauge wire when stator is able to provide maximum power, your engine oil will try and cool it, but that is the reason why some guys buy after market and after 2 years it fails, they figure it cost a fraction of OEM, just buy another one, well if you spend a bit more and install a series regulator, as my math proves, your after market stator may never ever fail again. Like I said before , your bike your money, just trying to share some knowledge .

FYI the RM stator will output 330 watts, problem is the 18 gauge at full power is carrying 14.43 amp ( 25 amp divided by 1.73= 14.45 amp )on a single 18 gauge, with a Polaris regulator @ 60% base load = 14.45 X .60 = 8.6 amp , extremely close to the same current of the Delta wound 18 gauge ( 7.25 amp)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Shindengen Regulators explained

Both series and shunt, buried in Stators

I have had several PM lately concerning replacement of a burnt stator, wishing to change out the shunt regulator. This did take some search time to find this. Still thinking of moving everything into one thread, problem is moving the pictures from the other thread, with the intention of deleting my posts there. Could use a explanation of how to :feedback:

http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_e/electro/catalog.html
http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_e/electro/reg.html

SH775 also 4012941 or Polaris SH775

From Invader

http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/160673-post36.html

Note
Added November / 2016 : explaining shunt and series difference / Delta and Y winding


This was originally posted in reference to a For Sale of a RM Stator to explain the ability to use after market stators with excellent results provided you follow my advice:


However you need to convert to a Polaris at the same time as the install of the RM stator. This combination will equal or exceed the lifespan of OEM stator / regulator, gets complicated but line volts and phase volts are the same on Delta, Y or Star connected the line volts is 1.732 X phase volts.

To explain, measuring 48 VAC across A to B or B to C , etc. of a Delta winding, means we have 6 poles with 48 VAC across= 8 VAC across each pole So Delta is described as phase volts and line volts being equal, However Line current is 1.732 X phase current, so the Delta wound stator has 2 of 18 gauge copper wires per line out, so @ 25 amp AC
14.434 amp per 18 gauge phase current X 1.732 = 25 Amp AC


Star or Y connected 48 VAC A to star / Y = 48/ 1.732 =27.71 VAC across 6 poles=4.61 VAC across each pole, or almost half the voltage across each pole compared to Delta
To prove the math 1.732 X 27.71 VAC =47.995 VAC , or A star B, B star C or C star A all equal 47.995 VAC Phase to phase
Y or Star connected current , line current and phase current are equal, that is the 25 amp per line out is 25 amp on 1 of 18 gauge wires . So that is why it is imperative to install a Polaris regulator, as normal continuous load is about 60% of maximum or 25 amp X 60%= 15 amp or the same as the delta wound 18 gauge wire.

So a RM stator with a shunt regulator would have 25 amp on one 18 gauge wire when stator is able to provide maximum power, your engine oil will try and cool it, but that is the reason why some guys buy after market and after 2 years it fails, they figure it cost a fraction of OEM, just buy another one, well if you spend a bit more and install a series regulator, as my math proves, your after market stator may never ever fail again. Like I said before , your bike your money, just trying to share some knowledge .
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Testing Stator to see if Toast

At some point I will extract all the testing and place it in a appropriate thread. For now this is going to do it for me.
More of a simple, very quick and extremely accurate test, to prove if any stator damage has occurred.

Basically, use your idle adjustment screw and get the RPM around 2000 RPM, this is warmed up RPM, do not try holding the throttle and measuring this.

So depending how fast you are, you may need to hook up your battery tender.

So what you need is some fine jewelers screwdrivers, straight pins or something that can be inserted in your socket of the stator plug, also a meter that reads volts AC, preferably with alligator clips on the probes . This is the 3 wires coming from the stator, to a plug close to your throttle position sensor. This connector has a latch locking it together, to release you need to squeeze down on the latch and wiggle / pull at the same time. When apart you are measuring the output from the stator under no load conditions, for your purpose, make a drawing and identify the 3 female crimps as #1,#2,#3, as long as you know what you are calling when referencing your measurements. So at 2000 RPM measure 1 to 2; 2 to 3; 3 to 1******that is your 3 readings, they should be around 24 to 28 VAC at 2000 RPM, the readings should be 0.5 VAC within each other, that is 1==28.0; 2==27.5; 3 ==28.3----

-if any readings are like the following ****1==24; 2==16; 3==22, you have shorted turns.

There is a third test that can also be done, measure 1,2,3 to ground, record these three readings, should be around 17 volts AC


Note:
One thing I have never mentioned, between my test and Kawasaki. Kawasaki requests 4000 or 5000 RPM, at that speed the rotor is producing maximum flux density, at 2000 RPM it is about 25% of maximum.
The difference is that, at 25% flux density, a small turn to turn short or turn to line short will have a large impact on the AC output. At 100% output, the imbalance between phases will be less noticeable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Three Part Answer OEM verses RM Stater & Others

How was it with the OEM stator? I ask because I too have Gerbing gloves and jacket liner. This is my first season with a Versys (2015 - 650).

Thank you
Part 1-OEM is Delta wound, has approximately 42 turns of #18 magnet wire per pole, final connection is two 18 gauge wires connected to each line out.

RM Stater and others cheat and use Y or Star connected stater using #18 gauge and about 31 turns per pole ( I have posted some other place with exact numbers on this forum if you really want that info), Y connected is easy to spot, look for three magnet wires in between one of the poles that are taped together. Line out is one 18 gauge per phase.

Part 2 ** the rotor magnetic field strength / combined with RPM , controls what the maximum wattage out--so the RM will output 330 watts for a very short time when cold, the problem is 18 gauge wire cannot carry 13 amp per phase , root 3 is 1.73, 23 amp maximum output = 23 divided by 1.73= 13 amp. Take 13 amp per phase X 1.73 = 23 amp approx.

So line current maximum is 13 amp

Delta wound we have 6.5 amp per 18 gauge wire, line out and within the winding of the stater.

Y or Star wound we have 13 amp per 18 gauge wire, line out and within the winding of the stater.

A brief explanation of voltage drop; heat produces resistance, I am sure most have heard of a super conductor, again I don't remember exact numbers but it is something like minus 200'C
If we had this in our motorcycle, all staters would work fine, but we don't!!

As magnet wire heats up resistance increases, this then causes a increase in voltage drop, a good example is your extension cord for the electric chain saw or lawnmower, the warm cord is losses in energy caused by voltage drop, many manufacturers state the minimum size of extension cord for high current drawing power tools that have a continuous rating.
So the RM stater will produce full power when cold, problem is the engine oil and the load itself causes the magnet wire to heat up, once hot , and in particular when using heated gear , the RM stater is lucky to output 250 watts . I have done a study on what each device draws in another thread, bottom line is you need a Delta wound stater ( Rickys claims to be Delta wound) if you plan on running heated gear or extra lighting where you are reaching close to 100% output of the stater.


Part 3-- I have a Gerbing jacket and heated grips, I also have a Compu-Fire regulator on my 2015 along with a Thermo-Bob running at 190'F out . In part 2 I mentioned 100% output, keep in mind the stater cannot output 100% below 4000 RPM, therefor a Y connected stater will not be able to keep up with demand no matter what regulator you use.

The big difference with the series regulator is, my stater sees my total load whenever it can output total load. As a example , say I am running heated gear, say total load is 220 watts.

At idle the stater cannot output 220 watts, at 4000 RPM and above it can, and that is all my stater sees, even at 8000RPM.

Same load but OEM shunt regulator, at idle the regulator isn't doing anything, in fact you could disconnect the electronic circuit of the regulator and you would still charge the battery ***not going to explain this here---however at 4000 RPM and higher it outputs 330 watts and actual draw from the stator is 330 watts. I will add more later if there are questions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Electrical Term "Watts" 101

Great information!

I have the Polaris regulator on mine. When it gets cool, and I use heated gear, I guess I'll need to try to avoid stopping and letting the bike idle. :)

Do you know of any aftermarket stators that output more watts than the OEM one?

Thank you! :thumb:
You maybe misunderstood , original OEM stater is fine with heated gear, if you are sitting at idle for any length of time, and it is that cold out, one of two things, your stuck in a snow drift and can't move , or you fell asleep, in both cases I will say you should be good until you run out of gas, then you could be in trouble. If you followed my install about the headlight relay and used the brake liight for a trigger, you could always turn the headlight off while you are stuck in that snow drift, will conserve gas and keep the volts up.

OK Watts 101 1 watt is equal to 1 volt times 1 amp, typically referred to as voltamps when dealing with three phase and power factor, transformers also have a VA rating. So to explain the Versys stater, the permanent magnet rotor has basically a VA rating, in maxwells or Faraday lines of force, to increase watts out the only way I know would be to increase the wire size, change the turns or increase the number of lamination's.

Increasing lamination's would require more room in the stater housing, any other method would net a marginal 20 or 30 watts, not worth screwing around.

One way to increase available watts is to change the city lights to LED, change your headlight to led, looks like IAMRA has a solution, waiting for a update on how the new one is working.Basically reduce watts by eliminating incandescent lights.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Idle RPM Importance

FYI , idle RPM is important, you will notice that after driving for 10 minutes above idle, that your gas gauge may come up 1 bar on the 2015/2016, the reason is everything depends on 14.2 VDC, not 12 volts. At 13 volts your battery takes longer to come up to full charge, 1350 to 1400 RPM the stator meets or exceeds the base load by a very small percentage, below 1350, base load almost exceeds what the stater is outputing.
FYI, if you are stuck in traffic you are better off turning the bike off, because the fan will start cycling and when that happens you will go below 12.5 volts at times.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Permanent Magnet Induction Testing 101

Every once in a while it becomes obvious I haven't done a good enough job explaining myself, I will say I am a induction specialist ( closest thing I know of to a expert).

So the only accurate way to test a stater in place using permanent magnets is using a rotating magnetic field at a fixed RPM and measuring open circuit voltage phase to phase. FYI OEM is Delta connected, ungrounded, after market is generally Y connected ungrounded.The reason why you can't accurately measure or test is, the magnetic full field is present even at rest / standstill.

Only accurate way to test a stater on the bench is using a LCR meter, not a ohmmeter.

So why a LCR meter, take the number of turns per pole 44 times 6 = 264 turns,Stator Rewinding

divide that into the manual spec resistance of 0.18-0.27 ohms which = .000681 to .0010 ohms per turn, lets go out on a limb and say one pole is completely shorted 0.27 divided by 6=0.045 ohms, let me tell you your leads average 0.25 to 0.50 ohms, so even if you know how to zero your leads, we are talking 0.027 minus 0.045 =0.22 ohms .

Using my method at a fixed RPM will detect even 1 shorted turn, or 1/264 of the effective impedance of the winding, your choice , follow the manual or follow my test method.BTW I don't own anything that will measure 0.045 ohms in place on a inductive load.
Simple explanation : using the open circuit 2000 RPM test--all readings should be within 0.5 volts AC and within 22 to 30 VAC, other-words, you measured A-B =22VAC, B-C =22.5 VAC and C-A =21.5 VAC would indicate stater is good




Simple explanation : using the open circuit 2000 RPM test--all readings should be within 0.5 volts AC and within 22 to 30 VAC, other-words, you measured A-B =22VAC, B-C =22.5 VAC and C-A =21.5 VAC would indicate stater is good

Same test method---A-B = 16 VAC , B-C = 4 VAC, C-A = 2 VAC == Your stater is toast

Same test method --A-B==26 VAC, B-C = 16 VAC , C-A = 19 VAC ==Your stater is toast




BTW reference previously about a grounded stator, except for measuring VAC while running, any pole to ground will measure to ground on all three phases. A little trivia, the Versys stater has 3 phase delta wound, each phase has six poles= a total of 18 poles with 44 turns of 18 gauge magnet wire, for pictures click on stator rewinding and see Fuse_x detailed post c/w pictures.


Note:

I have added a few more tests discussed in this thread, due to the fact the OP couldn't post in technical forum :http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...king-awhile-finally-posting-looking-help.html


And another thread started where rather than read, just post another thread, posted in Burnt Stator and here:
http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...5977-stator|r-r|battery-trouble-shooting.html
On the up side, some good info from Google, however somewhat complicated and not 100% correct instating the regulator is at fault for failure, it should read the shunt design is at fault
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4HluJSSYjmtcmtBSXdQdHpwdWM/view
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
4012941 / Polaris / Not Mosfet

This has been covered before by me and many others, do a search and see if you find your regulator , search is either SH775 or 4012941, both numbers appear on the side of the regulator, this represents a series regulator, if you had gone back a page you would have seen it.
Your comment of working on the right side has been done but is totally unnecessary. The Polaris regulator you have is likely a shunt regulator, read post 32 of this thread, picture of the above numbers, anything else is shunt type unless you have a Compu-Fire . So I will provide a link on MosFet or Fet for short;

MOSFET - Wikipedia

The difference between shunt and open also known a Series regulator please note this is technical, however the meaning of shunt refers to the bypassing or discharging of excess voltage / current., this is the manufacturer of the 4012941 Polaris regulator .

Regulators/Rectifiers | Motorcycle Products | SHINDENGEN ELECTRIC MFG.CO.,LTD
I have also provided a link which again is technical, you will see the Fet Shunt and also below the Series also known as a SH775


Regulators/Rectifiers | Motorcycle Products | SHINDENGEN ELECTRIC MFG.CO.,LTD

Last, since admin. thinks Sticky's are sufficient and Burnt Stators meets that demand, this thread was started by me to help others in the install of Series Regulators, more of a How To What would have been nice is to do your posting in Burnt Stators and edit this post with a link to that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
http://roadstercycle.com/ / Copy Cat

I do not have a photo but there are no numbers printed anywhere on it including where you indicated in post 63. MY assumption is yes, I was duped. Any meter readings to make sure before I pull the trigger at bike bandit?
Please post your findings, I assumed that Bike Bandit would be a little better at supplying OEM parts, I guess buyer beware, if it is a knockoff please post that, my guess is you are correct.

The only way to prove the series function would be to hook up the 3 phase stator wires, run positive and negative to your battery, if you have a ac ammeter fine if not a AC voltmeter will work, I have added pictures of my old 07, using the stator plug on my 07 and connected temporarily to a polaris regulator, to do a set up for a friend, before I installed it on his bike,the photos taken were not intended to be a how to.


Onewizard, thanks for the bike bandit link.
While waiting for shipping, I'm getting my wiring bits and tools ready. I have the basic crimp tool, sodering gun, heat shrink tube and a bid on conectors. Did you mention there was a specially conector in earlier thread for this job?
Home This is a legit site that has whatever you need , the SH775 is the only series regulator at this time, unless you go to Compufire, Roadster mentions a larger 50 amp super kit, not sure if series or shunt, in any case it isn't needed, the Versys has a roughly 25 amp output limit, the SH775 is 35 amp.


As to the pictures, the very last picture shows two meters, one is measuring VDC at the battery, the second is VAC or volts AC, the volts AC meter is significant in that after a couple minutes of running,the battery should have reached /be at full charge, an increase in the throttle to 2000RPM or higher should result in a increase equal to or higher than what my AC meters shows of 21.8 VAC, what happens is the SCR start to switch off rapidly , only being on long enough to satisfy load conditions, aseries regulator should have 14.2 VDC at the battery and at or above 21 VAC on any of the three phase wires when at or above 2000 RPM.

So what happens if the series regulator is a fake and really is a shunt regulator, well after a few minutes of running, a increase in throttle will result in exactly the same AC voltage at idle as it does at 8000 RPM, it may increase by 2 VAC due to voltage drop of the shunt device, but it will never reach or exceed 17 VAC

Meters are all Fluke precision meters, two on right are 189 and left is 87III, meters on right, #2 measures phase A to B , #3 measures B to C phase, #1 measures volts DC at the battery of 14.38 VDC
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Triumph Harness

Onewizard, thanks for the bike bandit link.
While waiting for shipping, I'm getting my wiring bits and tools ready. I have the basic crimp tool, sodering gun, heat shrink tube and a bid on conectors. Did you mention there was a specialty connector in earlier thread for this job?
Triumph T2500676 Harness

#T2500676: Triumph. Link Lead, Regulator. 456777 > 468703

T2500676 Triumph Link Lead, Regulator $9.27 - 2WheelPros

Home *****as far as I can tell, they have stopped selling this individually, it is part of a kit C/W regulator

around $10, for those that want to plug in rather than individual crimps. My using T&B female spade connectors are superior, however you need to waterproof my install. So for $10 plus shipping it may be better for in experienced people trying to crimp for the first time, you will need to but splice and do the other steps in my procedure irregardless of getting this harness.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Stator Failure / Polaris Regulator

Since this was in the for sale thread for Smiley RM Stator , I thought it appropriate to update some info that I posted here yesterday, and move it to my Polaris thread. However, some members may be considering buying this stator and aren't sure if this is a good deal, hence the explanation;


A little update, for someone on a tight budget that has a stator that has failed, is willing to learn, and would like to upgrade your regulator to a series from a shunt, this would be the way to go. Y connected RM stator and a Polaris regulator = equal a OEM Delta stator with a Shunt regulator.

However you need to convert to a Polaris at the same time as the install of the RM stator. This combination will equal or exceed the lifespan of OEM stator / regulator, gets complicated ,-------------***** for more on this,= go to :http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/1061042-post2.html

:thanx::type::blah:
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Two Stators/ Both OEM/ Two Final Methods

I was wondering if it could be a cheap aftermarket.
This may come as a surprise, but your stator and post 270 are OEM Delta stators, so is post 373 a OEM Delta Stator. The difference is the first 2 are varnish dipped, have a better heat transfer but do not hold the magnet wire as firmly, ( moving/ changing magnetic fields , are equal to and opposite of the applied force). You want to keep the winding turns from moving/ vibration, as there is a coating of 0.0015 on the wire ( yes that is correct, smaller than a human hair).The post #373 is epoxy encapsulated!!

Two factors come into play when deciding on epoxy coating, one is the poor heat transfer, the second is the superior mechanical holding properties and protection against abrasion, ( remember the engine oil with metal particles is being circulated around this stator).

What came about in the early MK-2 version was some of Kawasaki suppliers were winding the stator with the cross over connections on the back, post 373, picture #3. So this stator would be my first choice with a Polaris regulator. Why include Polaris? Because the poor heat conduction abilities of epoxy encapsulation , or in motor shop terms , we would ask," you want it encapsulated". By using a Polaris regulator, two things occur;

#1 load on the stator is constant =<< to what the stator can put out, i.e. if you are running your high beam, that additional actual 65 watts @ 14.2 VDC( correct for a 50 watt OEM bulb @12 Volts) , at idle it cannot put out a additional 65 watts at 14.2, it will be closer to 13.6 VDC
#2 load on the stator will never be more than actual load, and will never reach 330 watt maximum unless you short something out.

So why is this a advantage using a series regulator? Two huge advantages, the first is reduced fluctuations in load and this affects the expansion of the copper magnet wire, much like when water freezes , frozen pipes burst because the expansion exceeds the mechanical properties of the pipe, the pipe fails. Heat up the copper magnet wire, the hotter it gets the greater the expansion. Guess what, those very first turns are insulated from the steel core with .005 insulation or less, this is something like being in a concert and everyone rushes for the exit, some people die from being crushed, so will your stator die. The copper wire has no place to expand to, eventually the insulation on the core or the magnet wire fails.


So why does the stator burn up from 1 shorted turn. And how can we find 1 shorted turn using Kawasaki's testing method in the Service manual if it isn't grounded.

Using Kawasaki's testing method you can't find a single shorted turn.

My Testing Method But you can if you use my method http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/9-technical-discussion/16774-burnt-stator-stator-testing.html


Back to Shunt VS. Series. I copied the following from one of my posts.It is a long read howoever, I spent enough time on it that I want to share it here, for those interested. I may have added something in either of these posts, that was missed in the other, making it possibly easier to understand. And for those with a genuine interest, you can always ask. My suggestion is just ride your bike if you just want to stir the pot>:)


****************************************************************************************************************

I got a couple questionable looks today when I mentioned I am replacing my brand new 2015 regulator. I like where they mounted it, however one consideration I would suggest is to extract the pins from the OEM socket, cut the wire at the crimp, all wiring is way too short. You could order the socket kit from the post above if you wanted to restore to original, word of caution, that style of crimp requires a special crimper. I will post pictures of how I did my compufire and you could do the same for Polaris.

So, the main event:
Most equipment whether a electric motor or what is referred to as switch gear, or outlets in your home have a rating. Your duplex outlet is on a 15 amp breaker, the wire is rated to carry 15 amp, 15 X 120 = 1800 watts, however most equipment on that 15 amp circuit has a rating of 1500 watts or less.
Your wiring and breaker etc has a 80% rating, that is it isn't rated to carry 1800 watts continuously, which is 100% rated . Most equipment is rated the same way, throw in a higher ambient temperature and you need to de-rate your equipment even more--so that 80% rating becomes 70% or 60%.I hope this makes sense.
Much like a human being, hot weather and exposure to the sun , heat stroke is possible and precautions need to be taken, this applies to everything electric, heat is number one killer--you've heard "the magic smoke escaped", so having a crude electrical regulator in 2016 where it forces the stator to run 100% whenever possible makes no sense, especially since technology has been around and produced for over 10 years ie. Compu-Fire for one.

So this is where it makes no sense installing a shunt regulator and rumors have it that the 2015 has more power--we'll see.
A shunt regulator makes the stater run at 100% all the time it is above 3000 RPM, and run at maximum available output below 3000 RPM

The series regulator , say your total load is 10 amp DC ( 40% load), injectors, fuel pump and headlight , city lights and tail light, ignition, and your cell phone.I picked 25 amp rather than 23 amp for calculation purposes --and don't know the rating of the 2015, ( 10 amp / 25 amp= 40%). Edit December 2016 output on MK-#3 is identical to previous years

With the series regulator ,stater is running at 40% load all the time, no matter what the RPM, So which stater do you think will fail first the 40% loaded one or the 100% loaded one? Plus it isn't magic, conversion from HP to electricity is at best 50% efficient , so you are burning fuel to heat up the environment, wasting 60% of the electricity produced.

Still not convinced, at idle the shunt and series regulators are equal, generally the loads of the Versys are equal to or slightly less than stator output, when we go above idle, the shunt regulator shorts out the excess above 14.2 VDC. The series works in reverse, it is full on at idle giving what is needed to maintain 14.2 VDC , once we go above idle and attempt to exceed 14.2 VDC the series regulator starts to switch off, the higher we go in RPMs the faster it switches off, so the stator only sees the load demanded using the Series Regulator.

So the shunt regulator and stater are always going through a heat cool cycle as you go from idle to 5000 6000 RPM, so this eventually causes the magnet wire coating to fail --hence Burnt stator
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Plug & Play / Regulators / Stators

I have begun reading this thread, but I know that I do not have the time to internalize it all. I have an '08 with just about 30,000 miles on it and I do not want to have it fail due to a bad stator. I would like to put a series R/R on my machine.

Two questions:
1 - Are there any plug-and-play series regulators? By this I mean an R/R that will bolt in and plug in without modification to my Versys, and
Short answer no, fundamentally there is a problem as Furukawa FSW 6-Pin connector is only made in the male configuration http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/1103106-post16.html , if a male version was made then it would be a matter of connecting to a Triumph harness and my latest mod with the solenoid ground.
As to identical footprint , yes to the Polaris and no to the CompuFire , as it is larger and the fins are 90' , also Compufire has a 35 amp output when the stator can only produce 25 amp, so a bit over kill.


2 - What stators are plug-and-play? I see that Ricks sells a stator for the '08 Versys, but I am not sure that it works without modifications to the Versys.

I really would like a quick solution to this problem. I have a lot of faith in my Versys, but I am worried that I will be left stranded by it at some point because of the stator. I do not want to stop using the bike because I am concerned about its reliability.

Thanks for any information.
As to stators, OEM is Delta connected which is a connection used for higher current output, Y or Star connected is designed for higher voltage output and is typically the connection on all aftermarket stators because they cheat and use a single 18 gauge wire, when they should be two 18 gauge. So if you use a stator like RM or other Star connected you need a series regulator http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/1349658-post18.html
As to plug and play, all stators sold specifically for the Versys come with the connector in place, however buyer beware,
http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/74-how-forum/124601-stator-oem-vs-ricks-stator.html
 
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