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Discussion Starter #1
What you call 'Liberal', I call 'Common sense'.
For it is common sense to NOT tell people how to live there lives; just because they live there lives differently than you live yours.
So long as they are not directly harming anyone else, of course.
You can be part of the problem or part of the solution.
Otherwise...it's all in your head. You create a problem out of thin are.
You 'see' commies around every corner, you think Gays are going to turn everyone 'gay'.
Maybe your paranoid.
You fear change.
Your a Conservative.
To tell you the truth; I think our founding fathers would be ashamed of what these United States have become.
Things are not better that they were.
But it's their own fault...they screwed up....
When Jefferson wrote "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,[75] that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
...they should have included the line..."just so long as one does not infringe upon anyone else pursuit of live, liberty, and happiness".
But hey....I guess they just figured it was ..."common sense".

Ok...I'm going to bed now....Good night.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Well "Bear",
I can tell ya it wasn't the brown acid!
Just over-tired from a long day and an even longer 'out'.
(Operas are a messy business when it's time to clean up and 'get the show on the road').
...and why am I up after less than 4 hours sleep? My son was there an HE has to be down town at 9am to load in WWE "RAW"! He asked me to back up his alarm clock..just in case. ( he was already awake...chip off the ole block he is!) .
as for me..I'm goin' back to bed now.
 

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Having just returned from a family vacation in Washington DC, I have a renewed appreciation for the Founding Fathers. They all had their own take on things, but as a group I think were largely classical liberals in the Adam Smith manner. (Before anyone blasts the "classical liberal" label, kindly look up what it meant in the 18th century.) I think the Founding Fathers viewed government as a stabilizing entity to enable free enterprise and, as such, its role was to establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and ensure the blessings of liberty. They saw centuries of conflict that monarchy and state religions inflicted upon Europe and crafted an alternative, a blueprint for government by the governed. Can their views be translated into labels currently in use? That's a difficult prospect at best, although I expect they'd have had little interest in what people did in their private lives. Fortunately, the Founding Fathers gave us a system with mechanisms for change built in so the government of, by and for the people can reflect who those people are at a given moment in history. These men we hold on high were hardly perfect (consider how many of these champions of individual liberty owned other human beings), but viewed within the context of their era and stations in life they were truly revolutionary.

So...can we have a civilized discussion on the topic?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
[/QUOTE]So...can we have a civilized discussion on the topic?[/QUOTE]

Cetainly but Bones.....What I was trying to say in my sleep deprived stupor you nailed!
Well met sir.
Be well.
Peace.
:usa:
 

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Maybe i could say some random thoughts as its 4.20am, better not because my brain is mush and i can't understand myself at the moment, long night at work.
 

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I believe that our definitions have become "skewed".

What was originally considered to be 'liberal' is now 'libertarian' or 'conservative', and I can't even figure WHERE present 'liberalism' originated, although I think it includes some strains of PURE communism (as practiced in monasteries).

My .02$
 

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I believe that our definitions have become "skewed".
I'm not so sure that definitions of "liberal" or "conservative" (or what have you) have become skewed. Political positions (and whatever labels people attach to them) are a function of the times in which they are held. Nothing is constant but change.

I believe that politicians and talking heads at either end of America's political continuum have despoiled the reasoned discussion of policy by refusing to find common ground. Today it's about destroying the opposition, not about finding a way to govern.

There have always been parties left and right of center, but today there seem to be few political moderates who can bring disparate individuals together to get the government's work done. A generation ago there were conservative Democrats in the South and Mountain West, and liberal Republicans in the North and West Coast -- lots of each. These were Democrats who championed traditional values and social progress, and Republicans who championed free enterprise and keeping government out of our private lives. The political center was the force that allowed business do its thing with sensible regulation that takes into account the interests of stakeholders and not just stockholders, and allowed people to state their views and practice their religion and live their lives without government forcing its will over personal decisions.

Unfortunately, party power has become concentrated at the poles, so much that finding common ground -- the art of compromise -- is now widely viewed as weakness. Compromise is crucial to effective governance in a diverse society. Go back to the Founding Fathers again. Consider that those from big states wanted the new country's legislature to represent citizens by population, and those from small states wanted representation to be equal by state. How did the Founders resolve their impasse? They devised a federal legislature with two houses, with the House representing the people by state population and the Senate representing the people equally by state. Remember what this resolution was called? The Great Compromise.

Compromise isn't weakness. It's finding a way. The Rolling Stones sum it up quite nicely: "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need."
 
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