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Discussion Starter #1
Hello everyone!

I know there was already several threads about this topic, but they are quite old and I didn't find any covering one more question, but lets do it step by step. Please keep it constructive 0:)

First of all - what is overall opinion about LiIon mostly LiPo batteries, now in 2020, for Versys? (I'm proud owner of gen3 (2018) :grin2:)
Would be nice to hear (actually read :wink2:) real life experience.

Few more detailed questions:

1) How about capacity? As I see there is something about 4Ah for LiIon vs 14Ah regular one, it looks quite a huge difference. As I have alarm and GPS tracker installed, there is continuous drain from battery, don't know exactly in Amps, but for sure several mA. So I have concern about possibility to start motorcycle after a week or so.
To suck out 4Ah from battery in a week, it takes only 24mA
Sellers say, 4Ah is about the same typical lead batteries 14Ah, as lead drops voltage rapidly, and anyway motorcycle can't be started after about 4Ah drain. :frown2:

2) Charging, I have Exide smart charger ment for acid and gel batteries. Can I charge and/or trickle it with this charger, won't it damage new battery?

3) Same charging, but in motorcycle, didn't measure as don't have reliable voltmer to measure during runtime, but have read it may exceed 15V it is not good for lead batteries, but for Lithium batteries it might be dangerous as well.

Please feel free to comment any topic. If you have already installed one please let us know your setup, experience and hardware involved. (exact battery, charger etc)

Thank you!
Cheers :laugh2:
 

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Good questions regarding the charging and capacity. My experience with lithium batteries is limited to deep-cycle ones for RVs, but from that I know a few key things.

1. The useful capacity of a lead acid battery is about half of its Amp Hour (Ah) rating, the full capacity of a lithium battery can be used without damage. Starter type lead acid batteries especially get damaged when you drain them to low voltage repeatedly. So I think of a 14Ah lead acid as more like 7Ah, so not a huge gap to a 4Ah lithium. Your concerns about killing a battery with parasitic drain could be fixed with an Antigravity 'Restart' lithium. They keep a portion of the battery power reserved for exactly that situation, if needed you just press a button on top of the battery and can start the bike.

2. A lead-acid/gel charger will not fully charge a lithium battery. For RV batteries it wouldnt be dangerous as the big batteries have a built-in BMS (battery management system) that protects it from over and under voltage situations. If you can find a bike sized one with a BMS it will make things very safe, but full charge may not be achieved with out a charger that can detect and charge for lithium.

3. I am not sure how the bike charging system will be with lithium, but they make a ton of them for bikes now so it can't be totally incompatible. There is a lot of reading you could do on this forum to see what voltage the bike puts into the battery, and then on the rest of the internet to see what voltage a starter lithium battery likes to see.

I love the idea of saving weight with lithium, but haven't needed to replace any bike batteries recently, happy shopping!
 

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LI batteries: went through this over on the yamaha FJR site a year or 2 ago. all info by asphalt is good stuff.
keep this in mind: they do not start well at all when they get cold. after all the conversation on the FJR site, i ended up installing a battery warmer to excite it enough to turn over the engine. no luck without. temps below 40F brings this on...
i eventually got rid of the LI battery, which was near new, and installed a new lead-acid. the weight thing is significant, but made little difference on my 1300FJR...
jim
 

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Member Only & How To Forum

https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/13-member-only-group-rides-other-topics/222067-batteries-charge-rate-loading-stator.html?highlight=agm+battery

I have done post before, I have a long history of batteries, going back over 30 years. In the last 10 we jumpwd from ni-cad to lithium, skipping nickel metal hydride which happens to hold about double the charge of a ni-cad and isn't affected by the cold, I converted my Tektronix scope to NI-MH giving over two hours run time using sub C cell batteries , original run time was just under 1 hour using ni-cad , now I need to charge for a hour then pull out and charge a second time to get a full 2 hour run time with a smaller battery.
So several things, AGM Yuasa is a 10 amp hour battery, that can take a high charge or discharge current without affecting the battery life, repeated abuse however will shorten the life. The lithium ion batteries actually short themselves out in sub zero temperatures to produce heat, you will not have a increase in cranking amps over a AGM battery.
First be aware lithium batteries have a charge / discharge management system, if you do frequent starts, your charging circuit on the motorcycle doesn't determine how fast the battery charges, and the second thing, at a certain point, older lithium batteries became a throw away device because the charge was below what the energy management needed to run the charge circuit.If it is weight reduction, go on a diet, the cost of these are 3 times that of AGM and if you live in a climate like I do, no advantage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_commercial_battery_types

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/archive/lithium_ion_safety_concerns
 

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The charging system does not mach well at all, as noted above. A 12v to 12v charging system along with the management system(if not included) would be required or life and capacity will be shortened(severly?) Then there is the temperature thing. Again, they don't like the cold.

Taking an actual measurement of the static electrical load would be most beneficial, then work out the math.

They also do not like the heat. Don't really know the specifics on it but putting it where our location is will get the battery much warmer than specs allow.

I agree on the diet thing. 0:)>:)0:) , lot's more frugal.

FWIW, my original battery crapped at four years, about 60k miles. It does see quite a bit of heat, though.
 

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What A joke

:funnypost:


Lithium Iron Phosphate , the talk is of the battery lasting 6 to 7 years, I get 5 to 6 years out of my AGM Yuasa battery , I would say less than 1% of the members on this forum have the skill set to do this, further, 95% of the battery suppliers use China or other offshore manufacturers. I just replaced my NI-MH Tenergy ( these were top of the line I used in industry environment, no comparison to the Panasonic) batteries with the new AA 1900 Panasonic eneloop NI-MH ( the old eneloop batteries approx. 5 years still going strong, not affected by the cold) and a smart charger. I compare the new battery technology to IEC starters that came out in the 1990's, replacing NEMA https://www.google.ca/search?source=hp&ei=NzQrXuaYFJK6tQX-x7LACw&q=nema+starters+chart&oq=NEMA+starters&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0l2j0i22i10i30j0i22i30l7.2082.5687..10533...0.0..1.497.2954.3j3j4j2j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i131j0i10.s_9lXFh4Wys When electrical wholesalers first promoted them, many problems surfaced, one was they couldn't take the inrush current of NEMA starters , long story short a 15 HP Nema needed a 30 HP IEC and 100,000 amp interrupting capacity fuses ahead of these starters and special fusing .
I think we are just at that stage with lithium batteries, until motorcycle manufacturers start using these, ( I doubt it will happen unless it is a all electric bike:surprise:) Just remeber we are still using a shunt regulator in the 2016 versys 650.

Don't get me wrong, it was fun watching, the prices flash by on Ebay, and the parts needed , I get a PM sent asking about a Polaris regulator output pins, hopefully the poster left a contact him post>:)
 

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This type of build is how you DIY an electric vehicle power battery only with Lithium-Ion cells. 18650s are used because they are easy to configure and dissipate heat well. They have solder-less kits as well. Tesla brilliantly pioneered this concept and their battery packs are huge. My 48 volt Ebike power pack uses about 60 18650s and are good for 3 thousand charges I believe. The BMS (battery management system) is the key to these type of systems and use their own shunt to never allow the cells to overcharge. Lithium iron Phosphate, dont know much about this chemistry. Must be used for harder "cold" cranking in this case I guess compared to Lithium Ion cells in EV power packs. But as far as my Lithium Ion power pack for my Ebike, lasted a long time now and doesnt mind the cold. Interesting experiment here but a good lead acid motorcycle battery isnt that expensive. Losing "top heavy" weight on a motorcycle is always a plus though!
 

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This type of build is how you DIY an electric vehicle power battery only with Lithium-Ion cells. 18650s are used because they are easy to configure and dissipate heat well. They have solder-less kits as well. Tesla brilliantly pioneered this concept and their battery packs are huge. My 48 volt Ebike power pack uses about 60 18650s and are good for 3 thousand charges I believe. The BMS (battery management system) is the key to these type of systems and use their own shunt to never allow the cells to overcharge. Lithium iron Phosphate, dont know much about this chemistry. Must be used for harder "cold" cranking in this case I guess compared to Lithium Ion cells in EV power packs. But as far as my Lithium Ion power pack for my Ebike, lasted a long time now and doesnt mind the cold. Interesting experiment here but a good lead acid motorcycle battery isnt that expensive. Losing "top heavy" weight on a motorcycle is always a plus though!
Yes, talking Ebike or Tesla and 18650 cells,all in the same sentence may make sense, add a gas powered motorcycle into the mix and add $$$ and reliability = no sense. I provided a link, dangers about lithium batteries, thermal runaway is real, I have witnessed it, ever see a battery explode, I have. I felt the OP made it to appear he just discovered a way to make a cheap long lasting battery, I can tell you the way to make your battery last longer is to switch to a series regulator. One thing, the Ebike has its own battery management, designed for the battery, it actually shorts out cells momentarily to produce heat when it nears freezing. You should read this https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/ebike-lithium-battery-use-and-charging-in-winter-months-caution.26103/
 

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Yes, talking Ebike or Tesla and 18650 cells,all in the same sentence may make sense, add a gas powered motorcycle into the mix and add $$$ and reliability = no sense. I provided a link, dangers about lithium batteries, thermal runaway is real, I have witnessed it, ever see a battery explode, I have. I felt the OP made it to appear he just discovered a way to make a cheap long lasting battery, I can tell you the way to make your battery last longer is to switch to a series regulator. One thing, the Ebike has its own battery management, designed for the battery, it actually shorts out cells momentarily to produce heat when it nears freezing. You should read this https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/ebike-lithium-battery-use-and-charging-in-winter-months-caution.26103/[/QUOTE

The definition of cold is a little different here on the west coast. I dont ride Ebike below freezing but I see people who do. Plus 1C no worries but lots of salty brine around. Dont drive my Kawi either in that cold. The battery capacity is supposed to shrink when its cold but Ive not noticed it. My bike has sat in the un-heated garage many times over the last 4 years during extended minus weather no problem. I see Teslas have basically space-suit like level thermal management, never lets the battery get too cold or too hot whether the car is running or not. That means that it has to be charged up while sitting in Alberta cold to regulate the battery temp. Good videos on Youtube of Tesla owners in Arctic-like climates. Kinda like remembering to plug in your block heater in a regular car if you want it to start in the morning! Solid-state battery tech is being tested now but years away for production if it pans out. This is being spearheaded by Tesla and Robert Goodenough, the venerable inventor of Lithium -Ion tech. Rechargable battery tech really is the game of the century, alot riding on it...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
1. The useful capacity of a lead acid battery is about half of its Amp Hour (Ah) rating, the full capacity of a lithium battery can be used without damage. Starter type lead acid batteries especially get damaged when you drain them to low voltage repeatedly. So I think of a 14Ah lead acid as more like 7Ah, so not a huge gap to a 4Ah lithium. Your concerns about killing a battery with parasitic drain could be fixed with an Antigravity 'Restart' lithium. They keep a portion of the battery power reserved for exactly that situation, if needed you just press a button on top of the battery and can start the bike.
Thanks everyone for comments and opinions, I like Antigravity idea with included jump start feature, it looks really grate. :grin2:
Only I can't find any store to buy one here in Europe. Fond few in USA, but because it is a batterie they refuse to send it overseas. Maybe someone knows a store in EU?

Found in UK, but because of Brexit don't know what will happen and prices there are really crazy actually doubled. :wink2:
 

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My Money On Hydrogen Fuel Cell

Yes, talking Ebike or Tesla and 18650 cells,all in the same sentence may make sense, add a gas powered motorcycle into the mix and add $$$ and reliability = no sense. I provided a link, dangers about lithium batteries, thermal runaway is real, I have witnessed it, ever see a battery explode, I have. I felt the OP made it to appear he just discovered a way to make a cheap long lasting battery, I can tell you the way to make your battery last longer is to switch to a series regulator. One thing, the Ebike has its own battery management, designed for the battery, it actually shorts out cells momentarily to produce heat when it nears freezing. You should read this https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/ebike-lithium-battery-use-and-charging-in-winter-months-caution.26103/[/QUOTE

The definition of cold is a little different here on the west coast. I dont ride Ebike below freezing but I see people who do. Plus 1C no worries but lots of salty brine around. Dont drive my Kawi either in that cold. The battery capacity is supposed to shrink when its cold but Ive not noticed it. My bike has sat in the un-heated garage many times over the last 4 years during extended minus weather no problem. I see Teslas have basically space-suit like level thermal management, never lets the battery get too cold or too hot whether the car is running or not. That means that it has to be charged up while sitting in Alberta cold to regulate the battery temp. Good videos on Youtube of Tesla owners in Arctic-like climates. Kinda like remembering to plug in your block heater in a regular car if you want it to start in the morning! Solid-state battery tech is being tested now but years away for production if it pans out. This is being spearheaded by Tesla and Robert Goodenough, the venerable inventor of Lithium -Ion tech. Rechargable battery tech really is the game of the century, alot riding on it...
Many years ago 1999 ,there was a guy in Lions Head Ontario, he had solar, wind and hydrogen fuel cells, he was off the grid completely. Check the efficiency of any battery, the weight, the number of cycles, the discharge rate, sensitivity to cold, dangers of thermal .
https://driving.ca/toyota/mirai/auto-news/news/hydrogen-vs-electric-which-is-actually-more-efficient?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpfzEg5Ck5wIViJOzCh0_5QHOEAAYAiAAEgJc3vD_BwE&cid=SEARCH|GOOGLE|TORONTO-DYN|PPC&ef_id=Xi4SdgAAAhOrqC4o:20200127154604:s
 

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Many years ago 1999 ,there was a guy in Lions Head Ontario, he had solar, wind and hydrogen fuel cells, he was off the grid completely. Check the efficiency of any battery, the weight, the number of cycles, the discharge rate, sensitivity to cold, dangers of thermal .
https://driving.ca/toyota/mirai/auto-news/news/hydrogen-vs-electric-which-is-actually-more-efficient?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpfzEg5Ck5wIViJOzCh0_5QHOEAAYAiAAEgJc3vD_BwE&cid=SEARCH|GOOGLE|TORONTO-DYN|PPC&ef_id=Xi4SdgAAAhOrqC4o:20200127154604:s
Hydrogen Fuel cells.... I agree,better pure tech at this time. Power from water! But not as simple as that. Ballard Power systems in Vancouver has been leading the "charge" for a couple of decades. A few of my friends invested heavily in Ballard, its long term. We have some electric buses running on it. The mass infrastructure(in gas stations) is very expensive and the process to make it is more energy intensive. Less green so for governments harder to sell. Remember the Hydrogen highway concept(Arnie)from California to B.C? Overall considerably more costly to run. Plus you cant plug in at home. It would definitely solve a problem that current EVs have though, lack of capacity when towing. But the cost of hauling is really all business are interested in.So we will see how the Tesla semis do. I would love to stop breathing diesel fumes either way!
 

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Get a LiFePO4 4cell battery. It is direct replacement for 12V lead acid. It won't be fully charged (14.6V full charge) but provide much more capacity then crank battery or AGM of same capacity. Just one thing - charging LiFePO4 batteries below 0°C will destroy it. You can use them but do not charge.
 

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Get a LiFePO4 4cell battery. It is direct replacement for 12V lead acid. It won't be fully charged (14.6V full charge) but provide much more capacity then crank battery or AGM of same capacity. Just one thing - charging LiFePO4 batteries below 0°C will destroy it. You can use them but do not charge.
First I am going to react to your post, I highlighted an area that I disagree with, amp hour is just that, no magic, a 10 amp hour AGM will provide the same 10 amps for 1 hour as a lithium iron phosphate, the difference is the lithium will typically remain very close to the design volts, then rapidly drop off in voltage.I underlined this in the Dakota battery post below. Comparing cost, the lithium is 2 to 4 times the price of a identical amp hour AGM. Charge rate and charge temperature and maximum discharge current don't come into play on the AGM , they do on the lithium. I said it earlier in this thread, you want to extend the life of your AGM battery, switch to a series regulator.Last, notice the dangerous goods shipping restriction, this is real


Amp hour much more complicated than 10 amps for 1 hour, actual design is a minimum 10.5 volts and usually the design works around a 20 hour period, so lets us use 2.0 amp for 5 hours, would be much closer to reality https://deepcyclebatterystore.com/calculate-battery-amp-hours/


I copied a lithium battery post, in that post it describes maximum discharge current of 50 amp for 300 milliseconds;

Product Description

Built Dakota tough, this 12 volt lithium battery packs a big punch. Engineered with Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) technology this battery has twice the power, half the weight, and lasts 4 times longer than a sealed lead acid battery – providing exceptional lifetime value. The #1 battery for fishing electronics, outdoor use, and SLA replacement. LiFePO4 charger recommended. Not designed for use in electric ice augers.

SIZE: 5.94"x 2.55"x 3.78" (151mm x 65mm x 96 mm). Replaces UB1280 battery and many others.

WEIGHT: 2 lb. 14 oz. (1.30 Kg). That's 60% lighter than a SLA battery.

CAPACITY: 10 ampere hours. Dakota Lithium batteries provide consistent power for all 10 amp hours. DL LiFePO4 batteries have a flat voltage curve, which means they have a steady power output as the battery discharges. The power output will not dramatically drop like similar sized SLA batteries. You get all the juice down to the last drop.

OPERATING TEMPERATURE: Ideal for rugged & harsh environments. Much better than SLA or other lithium’s. -20'F min, +120'F max optimal environmental operating temps.

DISCHARGE: 20 A max continuous, 50 A max 300 mS pulse. 9.0 V max discharge, 11.0 V max recommended discharge. For longest lifetime recommended discharge rate 1-5 Amps. The flat discharge voltage curve provides a 75% bigger capacity then a SLA 10Ah battery.

INCLUDES ACTIVE BMS PROTECTION: Contains a circuit that handles cell balancing, low voltage cutoff, high voltage cutoff, short circuit protection and temperature protection for increased performance and longer life.

Shipping Restriction - this item is a dangerous good and must be shipped via ground transportation only. An additional shipping charge may apply.


 

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Hate to be a dullard, but am I hearing that at the end of the day, replacing my original '09 lead-Acid battery with another one is fine to do, and probably the cheapest say to go? Any brand or special specks I should look for, or just try to find the most suitable current replacement? Thanks much.
 
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