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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
FYI This thread was started to protect the information and technical info invested in this project. FYI anyone or any search spider can copy from the other forums or redirect from other searches. except in this Forum




Would you be interested in a wider powerband and more power for your v650? What if it came with increased fuel economy? Would you actually be willing to spend some of your hard earned money for that?
I started another thread under similar questions, fuel mileage is good on the 650 ABS 2015, however the response below 4500 RPM , in my case 4000 RPM, is not of use , my 07 I had no trouble running down to 2500 RPM in 4th gear, can't do it on the 2015. If there is a fuel mileage gain that would be icing on the cake. Many have gone with the booster plug, we all know what that does, very similar with tweeking the TPS sensor on the Mk-1 & MK-2.

Thread combined as of Aug.3

:feedback:
 

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Discussion Starter #2
More usable power with increased fuel economy sounds wonderful, but I find that with most power modifications, my desire to try the power increase out leads to worse fuel economy. I guess the best fuel economy mod would be to limit my use of the throttle. :)


Actually I am very satisfied with the power and economy of my Gen 1.

Randy
I agree as to power, however if you jumped on a 2015, you would be in for a big disappointment in the 2500 to 4000 RPM range. I know, I had a 2007 and 16 tooth front sprocket, I now have a 2015 with the OEM 15 tooth. On the 07 I was able to take off in second gear with a passenger and run in the 3000 RPM range in 4th gear and accelerate smoothly , I would never try that with the 2015 . In the 3000 RPM range it is just rough period! It shines @ or above 4500 RPM.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
What This Thread Is About

Add $1000 bucks in an aftermarket exhaust and power commander and all of those complaints go away. Gas mileage goes up with the exhaust then back down with the power commander. Overall I am down .5 miles per gallon(plus the investment). Up a great exhaust note, many grins and can trek down to 2.5k rpms no worries. Power ALL the way up.
Without letting the cat out of the bag, that is what this thread and my link are about, since nobody PM me in Thread combined Aug.3 , Steve started this thread. For some older members this was discussed here https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/178-modifications-performance-v-650/88345-pc-v-auto-tune.html?highlight=steve+sunny+florida check the very last post. And yes there was also discussion about some members running a PCV with Autotune in their MK-1 and MK-3 successfully , not disputing that, this is about using your OEM ECU and reflashing with tested settings that make a marked improvement similar to the Concours.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
i'm personally satisfied with the power vs gas mileage on my 2008. i have a 44t rear sprocket and have plenty of low end grunt, and 1st gear is actually useful. can easily start off in 2nd gear as well. i took note of onewizard's comment re his 2015 lack of low end pull. any easy explanation?
Like I said in Post #4, been riding a V for 10 years, regrets getting a 2015 ? About equal now, however improving the low RPM response / stability I stated in post #4 would be a big plus:thumb::thumb::thumb:


If you bought a bike but feel the need to modify it for more power.....Then you bought the wrong bike in the first place...
I know this isn't in reference to my previous post but it fits, if the 650 ABS wasn't sufficient HP for me I would never have sold my 07 Versys, however several people suggested I would be surprised with the MK-3 improvements over the 07 ( no doubt in my mind ), fortunately I can work around the low RPM poor response , overall it does everything I want of a bike, the best being the twisties . So to be clear, if I could get a reflash of my ECU to give me that response / stability in the 2500 to 4500 RPM range I would have a even bigger :grin2::)




Below 4500 RPM , better /smoother response which was the title of post #2, really describes this thread, and it isn't a debate, it is more of asking if there is interest in getting your ECU reflashed, same guy that did the Concours . I hope that clears things up.

This is something that Kawasaki could have done but chose for whatever reasons not to ( could be emissions, fuel mileage, any number of things)
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Finally Getting Response

Would have been simple for him to just say that himself instead of fishing........:exactly:

Back in 2017 this was discussed between myself and Steve, I was also in contact in early 2018. Then recently he was looking for lets say a second opinion / test rider and earlier MK-1 or MK-2 in the Tampa area. Hence my post , with no takers. He then decided to post himself hoping for some response without getting people too excited:surprise: :thumb::thumb::thumb::topsecret: well it looks like it worked !! And for those questioning changing the settings on the ECU, my 07 performed flawlessly in the 2500 to 4500 RPM range, same motor as the 2015, so obviously the HP increase on the MK-3 is strictly ECU settings, so I see no reason why we can't get the 2500 to 4500 RPM response back for the 2015.

:thanx:
 

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Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought I read that the cam was changed in the 2015. This changed the power to more like the Ninja 650 with power concentrated more in the upper revs.

Either way I am sure Steve's flash will make a great bike even better. Just like he did with the Connie 14.

Price wise Steve told me that the V-650 flash would not be as expensive as the flash for the Connie 14. He said that tweaking the V-650 ECU was much less labor intensive than the Connie was. I think the flash for the Connie was around $400.

During my research, I had read this also. I cross reff'ed the part #'s and indeed, they are different. But then I looked at dyno charts, where they peak, etc, and it was apparent that there might be small changes to the lobes or overlap, but apparently minor. Minor enough that I didn't see a mechanical reason for the 15-up's to be so flat below 5k, so it was probably tuning. Well, that's correct... it's tuning.

While I did gain some peak hp , Kawasaki did a very good job there. Where I'm concentrating the bulk of my effort really in in part throttle ridability, particularly from 2-5 k. I feel I've made meaningful changes there. I can now go out for a ride and never exceed 5k, whereas before I was almost always over 5k. I tended to ride much more aggressively on the stock tune because the low rpms were so vacant. Now I find myself riding at lower rpms comfortably, so a more relaxed ride.

I'm on the tail end of the tune now, just trying some experiments to see if there's anything else I can exploit. Because I think most folks with smaller bikes aren't as performance oriented as those with larger bikes, I expect I'm going to have to stimulate sales with attractive pricing. There might be a hint there.

Steve
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Changed title

Woa a bit confused by the posts here. Blame it on a few too many wasted brain cells in lieu of having a good time.

The power commander (greatly) helped mitigate the fueling issues of the mk-3 versys exasperated by an aftermarket exhaust. It is now better than stock and seems to be a happy motor down to 2.5k rpms.

These mods DID put a little more grunt to the V. That being said, in no way did the mods turned it into a liter bike. It did however lighten the bike up, give it a bit more power, a great exhaust note, and totally fixed the touchy throttle.

I’m not an expert in ECUs and re-flashing, but for the extra money I have the bike that I was looking for. To each their own, but these mods make me want to ride the V even more than I already did. 14k miles in 2.5 years, and not letting up. Spend money on the mods that make you want to ride more, just my $0.02.
Changed title I started the original thread

This isn't a debate, each person is entitled to their opinion
Misleading title. For me more performance isn't about HP. It is about being able to handle the curves. HP isn't going to make the bike faster and safer through the curves. Suspension and brakes are the performance mods I would be looking for.
Changed title I started the original thread
This isn't a debate, each person is entitled to their opinion
If one bought a bike and is considerig an 1k to 2k of an update in terms of Cash, because that's what it will cost a good exaust, power command and a serious bank tunning I think you're in to the wrong bike.

For a bit more you are in the realm of Versys 1000, Tracer 900, or my favorite, The Triumph Tiger Sport.

There have always been people looking for the Holy Graal on their bikes... But I've neve seen anyone achieve it.

Enviado do meu G3221 através do Tapatalk
Changed title I started the original thread

This isn't a debate, each person is entitled to their opinion

I see your point, but the main driver for the mods was not to turn the 650 into a liter bike. If I had a liter bike, I would also spend the $1000 bucks on that to give it a louder exhaust note and a better fuel map.
Changed title I started the original thread

We joined this forum mainly because of the Versys ( original was 650, the the 1000, now the 300), we try and share knowledge, if you wish to debate ECU reflash why not start a new thread, Pro and cons Reflash/ Power Commander alternative, FYI this isn't that thread!!:eek::rolleyes:

This isn't a debate, each person is entitled to their opinion, any further comments debating whether this is $$$$ , feasible, stupid or as a owner of a Versys 650 that should have purchased a V1000, now that the title is changed, I expect no more negative comments or debates on this.
5 minutes after posting, someone else decided to give a opinion



So if there are any owners of a MK-3 650 Versys around Tampa Florida and wish to compare the ride of stock, PM Steve.

:closed:
 

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Changed title I started the original thread

I don't think I need to delete posts or close this thread, we joined this forum mainly because of the Versys ( original was 650, the the 1000, now the 300), we try and share knowledge, if you wish to debate ECU reflash why not start a new thread, Pro and cons Reflash/ Power Commander alternative, FYI this isn't that thread!!:eek::rolleyes:
If hihs isn't a debate it sure stasts to look like an advertisement for a service, and if it is it should be identified as such.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Super Moderator / Same Rules as Everyone / Slight Leeway

If hihs isn't a debate it sure stasts to look like an advertisement for a service, and if it is it should be identified as such.
I combined my original thread to this one. The thread is open.

Just a FYI I contacted Steve to question if the direction this thread is taking was what he was looking for, I took offense by the above statement, in that, as a Mod I should know the difference , and the rules apply to me as well, I agree the Title was misleading,that is why I changed it, telling me that it is advertising, well that rubbed me the wrong way , Steve suggested that there may be an apology towards some forthcoming.
I should add that several people asked Steve in 2017 about doing what he did for the Concours, I was one of those, I also visited his site this year and was in communication about this, through my personal email account. How many people do you know that would go out and buy a MK-3 , go to the trouble of seeing if you can improve it, well I think I have said enough.

Steve you can take over, I will keep my comments to a minimum.:grin2:>:)
 

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Some of my only complaints with the bike/engine so far are:

-The on/off low throttle response
-<4000RPM chuggalugging
-The knowledge that the engine is running leaner than optimal

Yes! This is what I was trying to explain! That "chuggalugging". Although I don't feel like my Versys does this bad enough to scrap the bike it does present itself. Steve's flash totally cleans this up! That's one of the first major changes I noticed and responded positively to!
Throughout my ride I SWEAR I kept thinking how cool it was that this chuggaluggling was absent when I was riding with the flashed bike. For me to notice that, as a layman rider, has to tell you something. On Steve's bike the chuggalugging was present at about 3200 rpm and less. As soon as you hit 3200 rpm it went away...in any gear! And at this point is where what I'd like to refer to as that "grunt", the feeling of power at your wrist was most prevalent.

I hit some 90 degree turns and tried using the higher gears (going about 30 - 35 mph) and I can tell you, I could go through the turn in 6th and come out OK. I preferred to be in 5th through these turns but the flashed bike made it so that I wasn't worried about losing power coming out of the turn as opposed to my stock bike where I'd generally want to drop down to 3rd, or at least 4th gear.

At the same time, I'd hit a few turns in my "normal" gearing and the RPM's weren't too high either. Sure there was a little more power from the flashed bike in lower gear because that's just the physics of it all but my point is, I wasn't worried about being in a higher gear and having to quickly downshift 2 or 3 gears. I know we've all done that, where you're in a turn and you realize that you're up too high in gear, so you jump down a gear...only to realize you need to jump down another gear. Steve's flash, IMO, cleans this up.

To sum it up best I'd say the flash makes the Versys 20% "tighter". WTBS, I don't know if it's "physics-cally" possible to make it any tighter but Steve said he still wants to analyze some numbers. This is also what I meant in my review about those who think a flash should make a 650cc into a 1000cc...it's just not "physics-cally" possible no matter who's flash you're using!

Thanks Dan for the informative write up. I have been patiently waiting for Steve's flash to be available since last year. Your experience has wetted my whistle.

Hopefully I can get it by this fall which is my favorite riding season.

You're welcome, although I apologize for not being more articulate and being so long-winded! Hopefully I explained enough for you more mechanical/technical people to understand.
 

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Thanks Devilsfan - it was a fun day, and I appreciated the opportunity to ride your 2018. As i told you, I wanted to look at the tuning tables for the 2017-18. I have done so, and now I can report some information.

BTW Folks,I post this information to help folks "see behind the curtain" and dispell the myths about the versys 650 that have come to be "truths".

1) I was pretty impressed with the 2018's low end (under 5k) power. Definitely a lot better than the 2015-16 tuning.

2) I did a comparative analysis of the various stock ecu tunes. the reason the 2017-18 have better low rpm performance is because kawasaki substantially reverted to the tuning that the earlier bikes had. It's been pretty widely reported that the 2015 is really flat and lacking below 5k in light throttle application, and for whatever reason kawasaki had, it seems to be by design - or oversite. Apparently they recognized it and by 2017 it was fixed.

Devilsfan and I will get his bike on my dyno soon, and see how it stacks up. There may be some more room there, i really expect there will be. i'm also aware that most v650 owners aren't all about WOT power, but it is a data point that needs to be evaluated.

stay tuned.

steve
 

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First, let me inform y'all that I am in no way/shape/form and expert on anything to do with what Steve does. In addition, I am no mechanic nor do I claim to be! I teach a bunch of bratty 5th graders and ride motorcycles in an effort to find my sanity again after a day with the "kids"! >:)


I met with Steve today at his home. He showed me his shop and we discussed motorcycles. He showed me his flash product and how it was wired. He gave a very thorough explanation of what he did, what he wants to accomplish and how everything works in coordination with his flash.

Steve did not give me preconceived expectations as, I believe, he wants to make the best product with no manipulating the test subject (in this case, me!). If only my school board and superintendent listened to the teachers like Steve does with his clients!!!

Steve rode my 2018 Versys 650 while I jumped on his 2015 Versys 650. I have 6100 miles on mine, to include an 8-day adventure touring up from Florida to Clarksdale, MS, then east through Tennessee and into the Smokies, riding the Dragon and the Cherahala Parkway among other roads. So, I do have a little saddle time to get to know my Versys. With that, there have been no modifications to my Versys other than cosmetics (grip puppies, luggage, seat) and the only adjustments made have been to raise the shifting peg and the brake peg. Everything else on my bike is stock.

We pulled out of Steve's driveway and went up to the first stop sign. I immediately noticed a difference but I wanted to give that to the fact that maybe it's just the way Steve's bike had a different seat than mine, making a false impression. We rode for a few miles in the back streets of his neighborhood doing between 20 - 45 mph through turns and minor curves. For the first few miles I stayed in the lower gears, never going above 4th gear and over 45 mph. The feeling I got was that the bike ran to the throttle - meaning, I could totally tell a difference. The Versys rode with lower RPM's and felt as though the twist of the throttle controlled the speed. Not so much as it was a deterrence but, rather, the engine did what the throttle told it to, if that makes any sense.

We continued on to a 55 mph road and this was where I noticed a BIG change! Normally, for my Versys, I feel like I have an "in-between", meaning that when I hit 55 - 60 mph in 6th gear I always feel like it doesn't hold it's power while riding at this consistent speed.
***Let me put this into some context - before my Versys my main motorcycle was my CTX700, manual. I did have short stints with a V-strom and then a NC700, DCT. But I always came back to the CTX. And before those bikes I was mostly shaft-driven VTX's and Intruders. So, the Versys has taken me some time to get used to knowing this bike can handle consistent speeds at higher RPM's. And I think I still have this mentality in the back of my mind, meaning I tend to catch myself shifting the Versys up gears quicker than necessary. When doing so I can feel the bike under-powered at certain speeds in certain gears, which obviously is normal for instance if you're going 35 mph in 6th gear!

Alright, now that's out of the way...we rode up through some faster roads and I was able to go at different speeds and used different gears to get a feel, if any, for how this flash was working. Let me tell y'all...Steve's flash WORKS!!! I could totally feel a difference in the power. Now, let's get one thing straight, if you're looking for this flash to make a 650cc motor perform like a 1000cc motor it ain't gonna happen. But if you're looking to make your 650cc into a bike with more..."grunt", so to speak, then Steve has done something well.

I'll explain further - no matter what gear I was in it ALWAYS felt like I had immediate power within a millimeter of a throttle twist. I compare that to MY Versys that feels like the power comes within a centimeter of a throttle twist. Let me say right now that I love my Versys the way it is as it has allowed me to learn with it and I think we're both a good team together! But with Steve's flash that power just always seems to be there, again, if this makes any sense. So, with my Versys I can feel a fraction of a second lag when throttling. Not enough to where I think it's a flaw because, comapared to any other motorcycle I've owned, the Versys is the tightest throttle response I've had.

Let me put it like this - if you ride your Versys in 6th gear and drop back and forth from, let's say 45 mph to 65 mph. You tend to feel like you have to juice it a bit going from the lower speed to the higher speed. On Steve's bike, it just didn't feel that way. It felt like I always had the response I needed...even if I didn't need it!

In summary, because I've already tried to explain too much with probably making very little sense, I really noticed a difference with Steve's flash compared to my bike. Steve has informed me he still wants to analyze and adjust but I can tell you now, if you're interested in this modification I really think it will be worth the expense AND you will enjoy the change.

Finally, I will say that this is not something I'm necessarily looking for as I am not a speedy kind of rider. Nor do I feel like my Versys is lacking anything. But I can say that after riding Steve's flashed bike today this device is definitely on my mind now!!! Again, I apologize for any lack of articulation. I'm sure Steve, or any other rider that's more knowledgeable with engines and mapping and flashing than I am can explain in more technical terms what I tried to say so have at it! Hopefully some of y'all can visit with Steve so he can show you proof positive. (Plus - he may buy you lunch like he did with me!!! Thanks again, Steve! :wink2: )

Please, feel free to ask me questions and I will try to answer then best I can. You know what you're looking for so by you explaining what you mean, can probably help me give you a more precise response!

Word! :grin2:

As a person who conducts tests for a living I feel like it would have been better if Steve had put his ECU in your bike. That way the only variable is the programmed ECU.
 

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As a person who conducts tests for a living I feel like it would have been better if Steve had put his ECU in your bike. That way the only variable is the programmed ECU.
tuning is nothing but conducting tests. one variable change at a time, or you don't know what effected what. In this case, I haven't tested ecu interchangeablity / compatability. They may interchange, but I haven't gotten to that point. Remember that if Kaw changes any sensors and diffeernt values apply on the lookup tables, then the ecu's won't interchange.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
MK-3 , 2015 Compared To 2018 ??

Thanks Devilsfan - it was a fun day, and I appreciated the opportunity to ride your 2018. As i told you, I wanted to look at the tuning tables for the 2017-18. I have done so, and now I can report some information.

BTW Folks,I post this information to help folks "see behind the curtain" and dispell the myths about the versys 650 that have come to be "truths".

1) I was pretty impressed with the 2018's low end (under 5k) power. Definitely a lot better than the 2015-16 tuning.

2) I did a comparative analysis of the various stock ecu tunes. the reason the 2017-18 have better low rpm performance is because kawasaki substantially reverted to the tuning that the earlier bikes had. It's been pretty widely reported that the 2015 is really flat and lacking below 5k in light throttle application, and for whatever reason kawasaki had, it seems to be by design - or oversite. Apparently they recognized it and by 2017 it was fixed.

Devilsfan and I will get his bike on my dyno soon, and see how it stacks up. There may be some more room there, i really expect there will be. i'm also aware that most v650 owners aren't all about WOT power, but it is a data point that needs to be evaluated.

stay tuned.

steve
tuning is nothing but conducting tests. one variable change at a time, or you don't know what effected what. In this case, I haven't tested ecu interchangeability / compatibility. They may interchange, but I haven't gotten to that point. Remember that if Kaw changes any sensors and different values apply on the lookup tables, then the ecu's won't interchange.
Yes I caught that the 2018 is different , so the question would be if all the sensors are the same, would a 2018 ECU be a economical swap on a 2015, my guess is what Steve is doing would be the cheapest and smart way to go.
 

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Average highway speed

What is your average, comfortable highway speed on your V650? Also please list if your bike is stock or if the sprocket gearing has been changed, and perhaps the average 6th gear rpm you are comfortable cruising at. Thanks! Steve
 

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What is your average, comfortable highway speed on your V650? Also please list if your bike is stock or if the sprocket gearing has been changed, and perhaps the average 6th gear rpm you are comfortable cruising at. Thanks! Steve
 

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Discussion Starter #17
2015 650abs

This is my observation from the other Day.
6th gear @100KM / HR 5000 RPM; 90KM/HR 4500 RPM; 80KM/HR 4000RPM***
5th gear @88 KM/HR 5000 RPM; 80 KM/HR 4500 RPM; 71 KM/HR 4000 RPM***
4th gear @ 77 KM/HR 5000 RPM; 69 KM/HR 4500 RPM ; 61 KM/HR 4000 RPM
3rd gear @ 64 KM/HR 5000 RPM; 58 KM/HR 4500 RPM ; 51 KM/HR 4000 RPM
2nd gear @ 50 KM/HR 5000 RPM;45 KM/HR 4500 RPM; 40 KM/HR 4000 RPM
1st gear @ 35 KM/HR 5000 RPM; 32 KM/HR 4500 RPM; 28 KM/HR 4000 RPM

So when in heavy traffic in the city we have two standard speeds, 50 KM/HR and 60 KM/HR, I am usually in 2nd gear.
City driving light or no traffic 60 KM/HR my preference is 4th gear, problem is it is almost useless to make a sudden increase in speed, it is jerky at that 4000 RPM
Same goes when I am highway driving and going from a enforced 100 KM/HR speed limit to a 80 KM/HR , preference is to stay in 6th, you will note we are at that unstable 4000 RPM again. In heavier highway traffic at 80 KM speed limit I am usually in 4th, just a tad over 5000 RPM.

Improving from 3000 or 3500 RPM up would make a huge difference in response, keep in mind the gear ratio hasn't changed since the first MK-1, on my MK-1 I ran a 16T front and could easily ride at 3000 RPM 2 up, so a little awakening on the MK-3 would change how I ride this bike.
 

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My '15 got flashed today.

I rode over to Steve in Sunny FL's house this morning. Both of our intent was to compare my stock bike with now over 46k miles on it to his bike with his flash in it over a varying route and nit pick on the flash. We did maybe 10-20% of the route and I told Steve that I want it. So we cut the ride short and went back to his place to do the deed. It's done.

One of the things that I requested is to mellow out the throttle response in the very low rpms to help with off road riding. This he accomplished. When on the pegs the throttle is much easier modulate. This only comes into play below 3k rpm so the mid range and higher is not affected. This is truly awesome.

Speaking of mid range, a noticeable improvement in smartly applied throttle. Where I used to get a rush around 6k or better, now that rush is not so pronounced because the bike is already making good power. Throttle response and performance is much improved in the 3k and up range. 4k actually has some umph now.

One more thing, Steve set the cooling fan to come on ten degrees cooler. Seems to work well with my Therm o Bob.

All in all, I like it. It ain't 100hp, but, of well. The low-mid range extra punch and response is welcome and the reduced response below 3k is just plain awesome.

Gonna head up to the north GA mountains after Labor Day to really have some fun with it. Yeehaw.
That's great Steve. Sounds like a fantastic upgrade to an already great bike.

Now I just have to patiently wait until the flash is ready to migrate out to California.

Thanks for sharing.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Thermo-Bob

My '15 got flashed today.

I rode over to Steve in Sunny FL's house this morning. Both of our intent was to compare my stock bike with now over 46k miles on it to his bike with his flash in it over a varying route and nit pick on the flash. We did maybe 10-20% of the route and I told Steve that I want it. So we cut the ride short and went back to his place to do the deed. It's done.

One of the things that I requested is to mellow out the throttle response in the very low rpms to help with off road riding. This he accomplished. When on the pegs the throttle is much easier modulate. This only comes into play below 3k rpm so the mid range and higher is not affected. This is truly awesome.

Speaking of mid range, a noticeable improvement in smartly applied throttle. Where I used to get a rush around 6k or better, now that rush is not so pronounced because the bike is already making good power. Throttle response and performance is much improved in the 3k and up range. 4k actually has some umph now.

One more thing, Steve set the cooling fan to come on ten degrees cooler. Seems to work well with my Therm o Bob.

All in all, I like it. It ain't 100hp, but, of well. The low-mid range extra punch and response is welcome and the reduced response below 3k is just plain awesome.

Gonna head up to the north GA mountains after Labor Day to really have some fun with it. Yeehaw.
I considered adding a temperature controller that I could override the ECU ( some have added a simple toggle switch, personally I like automatic, that happened yesterday in stop and go expressway traffic, sitting around 210 F for a good 15 minutes) , Coming on at 205'F would make a huge difference, something I never considered a flash could do, now I am getting excited:surprise:
 
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