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Batteries/ TESTING USING STARTER / Life related Shunt Regulator/ Charge rate / loading of Stator

7K views 45 replies 14 participants last post by  onewizard 
#1 ·
I am going to be very brief here, as I have come across a very informative site. Our OEM batteries are AGM , one thing many don't consider is the battery is a load once it starts to age, it is only good for so many cycles. So if you are riding with heated gear, have a shunt regulator and have to keep the revs up so you aren't discharging the battery, chances are pretty good it isn't the stator, but it is in all likelihood the battery, @12.4 or less it could be drawing the equivalent of your headlight 55 to 65 watts, this is wasted energy because it will never drop as the battery is getting tired, and it will eventually get warm. The heat produced is the energy lost in the form of heat.

That is my lesson for today----far more knowledge available here:

Battery Basics: A Layman's Guide to Batte | BatteryStuff Articles
 
#3 ·
07 Versys

In my experience, AGM batteries will last a very long time if not allowed to discharge by setting. I had one in the KLR last 7 years. I still on the original in the '12 Versys.
Yes
Changed out the 07 battery in 2014, it was still working but capacity had diminished, so repeated starts in a hour time, going to several stops, made it questionable if it would start a 6 or 7th time. Plus no load was around 12.3 VDC after sitting for a hour, new battery was around $70, and that was a OEM replacement at a large bike parts distributor .
 
#4 ·
Typical No Load VDC

My new Yuasa is around 12.7 to 12.9 VDC after several hours of sitting.
 
#5 ·
It's a good insight into batteries for the layman, but there are some things it doesn't mention like;
Never leave a lead/acid battery in a discharged state (meaning FULLY discharged) for any amount of time or it will sulphate & become useless.
Don't smoke cigarettes or introduce a naked flame near to a charging battery.
Don't use car battery chargers for elongated periods on a regular basis because the capacity to charge ratio needs to be observed & batteries have been known to "boil" when the charger output is too high.

You mentioned a battery is only good for so many cycles which is true, but cycles are measured when a lead/acid battery is taken from total discharge to fully charged by means of an ac/dc charger.
(ie; fork lift truck batteries get a 5yr or 1500 cycle guarantee)
 
#6 ·
Stator Output 24 amp @ 14 VDC = 336 Watts


Note: December 2016**changed the values of VDC from 14.5 to 14.2 VDC This will cause the calculations done previously to be off, from what is posted***Typical shunt regulator puts out 14.5 to 15 VDC ( malfunctioning shunt regulators have caused ECU failure in the past, due to the fact they only start working / shunting @ or above 14.5 VDC, Series regulator is solid @ 14.2 VDC )


I am going to start by saying, I found some startling news as to the Osram 65 Watt bulb I am using, and may be going back to OEM for low beam.

To simplify and reduce text :
Base load=ignition;fuel pump; tail and license plate bulbs; (city lights are LED)= 5.89 ADC @ 14.2 VDC

Headlight = Osram super bright PX26D #64217 rated 65 Watt @ 12VDC, actual wattage @ 14.2 VDC=80 Watts BTW they are now obsolete 5.3 ADC @ 14.2 VDC

Base Load Total including headlight = 162 watts on my 2015


Add approximately 10 Watts if using incandescent city lights


***Approximate Watts Available above Base Load=174 Watts***


****Note , Subtract 10 Watts if you have OEM city incandescent bulbs instead of LED from Available Watts

All loads below are in addition to Base Load


High Beam Light is between 70 Watts for OEM and 80 Watts for Osram

Fan = 4.81 amp @ 14.2 VDC=70 watts

Heated Oxford Grips on Max=3.6 amp to 4 ADC ( each grip 28-30 watts maximum) @ 14.2 VDC = 56.8 Watts Maximum

Gerbing heated Jacket @ 77 Watts = 5.42 amp @14.2 VDC

Fluke meter displaying mVDC is being driven by a hall effect
clamp on amp probe that outputs 1 mV per amp DC, measured at the Compu-Fire regulator positive output wire.

Fluke meter showing VDC is connected to the battery terminals
Testing was done at 1500 RPM with base load and fan

Testing was done again @ 3000 RPM, with base loads and all other loads as described.


:nerd:

Note:
Since this bike has 6 KM on it, is strapped down on my lift and has no other cooling, beyond the rad fan, I felt it prudent to limit how fast and how long I ran this motor , picture #562 is what I would say is maximum output, you may gain 1 volt at 6000 RPM which would be 24 watts. My feeling is we are at saturation with the magnetic field at 3000 RPM. So what I will say is this stater has a maximum output of 348 Watts. Always keep in mind that your battery if less than 12.4 VDC becomes a continuous load. Something I will try and show once the stater is changed out on Smiley's bike.

:frown2:

#565 fan and base electrics
#549 showing regulator and amp clamp
#550 base electrics
#551 base electrics & Fan
#552 base electrics & Fan & low beam
# 553 base electrics, low & high beam
#554 base electrics, low & high beam & heated grips
#562 base electrics, low & high beam & heated grips & fan @ 3000 RPM

Below note updated 2018
Note; when viewing meters, pay attention to the one showing DC mv,the hall effect clamp on amp probe is 1 milli volt per amp,so in photo #554 it is 20.9 amps DC and #563 23.86 amp @ 13.46 VDC at 3000 RPM , increasing to 4000 RPM would bring the voltage up to 14.2 VDC, but we're nearing the output maximum of the stator.

Also in reference to incandescent verses LED, incandescent bulbs have a wattage rating at 12 VDC, a increase to 14.2 VDC will cause a increase in wattage , however the increase in wattage is not directly proportional to the voltage increase. LED bulbs are either fixed current or in the case of headlight bulbs have a driver and a rating of 9 to 32 VDC, the wattage will remain the same no matter what the voltage, however a increase in voltage is inversely proportional to the decrease in current.
 

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#7 ·
What are the downsides to using a 9AH 12V battery instead of the OEM 10AH 12V battery with the Versys 650 (2016)? Out here in India, we do not have access to a 12V 10AH battery, and imported with duty costs a bomb.

The 9AH AGM is available aplenty.

Any advice?
I am running the 9AH amaron battery for a while now, no issues as such. I even have a pair of aux leds which run flawlessly with both the main headlights on. I don't use heated grips or anything so its fine so far. I also have a battery tender to keep the battery topped off when im not riding.
 
#8 ·
The AH is not a directly important number. A larger number does imply a "stronger" battery, in that it will take longer to run down, but under normal circumstances you should not be running your battery down.

As long as it is a 12v battery designed for motorcycle use, it won't harm your Versys regardless of the AH rating.

Normally the battery only supplies power to start the engine. After that, the alternator provides all the electricity for the bike, including recharging the battery. If you left the key turned ON but the engine not running, the battery would eventually run down. The 10AH battery would take a little bit longer to run down than a 9AH battery.

The higher AH number may be better under a few circumstances. Primarily if you live in a very cold climate. That doesn't seem likely for you in India! Other circumstances would be unusual, like many engine starts for very short trips (package delivery) so that the battery can't recharge fully each time the engine is running, or if you're powering something from the battery when the engine isn't running.

A reputable brand of battery at 9AH won't hurt your Versys and should work fine for you.
 
#9 ·
I agree with a lot of what members are saying-due to where you live- temp wise- and if you do not run a lot of electrical add on your fine with that 9amp battery-but just for clarification the bike does not run off the alternator it runs off the battery and the alternator replaces current used-why you ask because the ecu and injectors(lights don't care) need a pure DC signal the alternator does not provide that- I'm sure Kawasaki uses a bridge rectifier
Okay. I always thought the battery was ONLY meant to start the bike, and after that the alternator takes over to power all the electricals on the bike connected direct to the battery VIA the battery. Anything which is plugged straight to the OEM relay set up under the hood, will run off the alternator. Am I okay with my base understanding?

A reputable brand of battery at 9AH won't hurt your Versys and should work fine for you.
Super, thank you for this.

I am running the 9AH amaron battery for a while now, no issues as such. I even have a pair of aux leds which run flawlessly with both the main headlights on. I don't use heated grips or anything so its fine so far. I also have a battery tender to keep the battery topped off when im not riding.
Xen, thank you for this too. Helps to have someone local here who understands our 3rd world troubles! Will go out and fetch the Amaron VRLA AGM 9AH battery. Will just need to check if it fits into the battery bay (should I suppose).
 
#10 ·
I just replaced my battery yesterday after 4 years so as the clerk said it does not owe me anything. It would start the bike but often went dead after inflating my tires and could barely turn over the engine. It failed a load test. The new battery fires up the engine with just a touch of the starter button where as the old battery required a long press of the same button to start.

If you live in a city I would seek out a commercial battery supplier as they are always cheaper than a dealer or store and have a vast selection of lead acid batteries for every application from computer power supplies to large diesel trucks to boats.

I would be inclined to look for a battery that has specifications as high or higher than stock. No one knows for sure what will happen until you try it but my guess a lower capacity battery will act like my failing battery above and just barely crank over the bike.

In universal sizing, the Versys 650 takes a TX-12 battery.
 
#11 ·
just for clarification the bike does not run off the alternator it runs off the battery and the alternator replaces current used-why you ask because the ecu and injectors(lights don't care) need a pure DC signal the alternator does not provide that- I'm sure Kawasaki uses a bridge rectifier like most do that produces a pulse wave not a pure flat sine wave the battery is a pure flat DC wave-so that's itw
Sorry, doesn't work that way.

The alternator would be connected to the battery via some charging electronics or perhaps a simple rectifier/regulator. Idk what the waveform looks like for the V650 system in terms of how clean it is, but in any case the output of the charging system is attached to the + and - terminals of the battery. Meanwhile those same terminals are connected to the hot battery bus and run into the power distribution system.

The battery in this circuit is effectively a very large capacitor. It will smooooth the voltage waveform very effectively to DC, soaking up extra electrons from the alternator/charger when the voltage goes up, and providing extra electrons when the voltage is drooping (from too much demand for the alternator to supply it at full voltage).

The battery cannot be both supplying current (discharging) and simultaneously accepting current (charging). After engine start the battery is slightly depleted and will charge. The alternator must provide enough current at operating voltage to both recharge the battery and run all the systems on the bike. Once the battery is charged up, the alternator provides current to run the bike systems, and the battery in a perfect world does nothing but in the real world smooths the voltage waveform as a capacitor.
 
#12 ·
After starting duty the battery is on stand-by mode most of the time.




The battery’s primary job is to start the motorcycle and to supply any extra current the bike requires when the alternator output is lower than the current draw. This normally only happens at low rpm, when electrical demand is high and alternator output low, as it might be when stuck in slow traffic or cruising at low speed. Lots of high-draw electrical accessories exacerbate the situation and in a worst case may cause the battery voltage to dip below the point where it can restart the bike. The easiest way to avoid problems here is to monitor the battery’s charge via the OEM charge indicator, a formerly standard accessory that seems to be getting rarer all the time, or by installing an aftermarket charging system monitor, which is something I heartily recommend if you’re running a Christmas tree’s worth of electrical accessories.
 
#14 ·
Alternator Or Battery

Primary and Secondary
NO-
is normally open, energized to close the contact

I will refer to a fuse as primary or source and secondary as load. So the purpose of a fuse is to protect the wire it is attached to and also the branch circuits -A fuse block is a branch circuit of the main fuse. You never fuse your branch circuit with a fuse that is close to the main fuse. As an example, connecting a 25 amp fuse to the secondary of our 30 amp main fuse could end up blowing both the main 30 amp fuse and the 25 amp branch circuit fuse. In a situation like that, we would use a 30 amp time-delay fuse and a 25 amp fast blow fuse if it was close to 25 amp as what was needed-
this is not in our automotive electrical field that I refer to-so just forget I mentioned it.
So in our motorcycle, the primary side of the fuse 30 amp fuse is connected to the battery. The battery also is connected to the start solenoid through the start solenoid NO contact to the starter. We also have a start relay within the relay box.

The secondary side of the 30 amp fuse goes to the Key switch and also to fuse block #1 and to the positive output of the regulator.

This comes up when guys install a new regulator. They think connecting the new regulator output to the battery will make things work better!!
Well, people have left this forum as I can be somewhat anal when explaining things-never intentional but I come across that way.

So I will point a few things out.

Once the motor is running, the stator and regulator are the primary source of DC-anyone that says there is AC in that is partially correct, however, this is high frequency, you need an oscilloscope to see this ripple-it is insignificant!
So the
secondary of the 30 amp fuse is the same attachment point as all of the loads and the regulator.

So connecting the new regulator positive to the battery does several things, all power used must now go through the 30 amp fuse, any additional power above and beyond coming from the battery, plus the regulator must also go through the main fuse. The exception is the added connections made by the owner connected directly to the battery.
In addition, the original circuit of the regulator, the positive went to all the loads, one of those loads was the battery, in this case, the regulator in essence is connected to the primary side of the 30 amp fuse in respect to the regulator positive output. By connecting directly to the battery, we increase the voltage across the battery, basically cooking it, plus the 30 amp fuse was never meant to supply all the power for the motorcycle.
So once running, the alternator/regulator is our primary source of DC and the battery is our secondary source.

FYI
all those aftermarket connections made at the battery positive, the current flows from the regulator, through the 30 amp main fuse, to the battery, through your wiring, and hopefully a properly sized fuse to your heated grips, your Denali sound bomb compressor, or some such thing.

That is why the MK-2 and newer have auxiliary wiring coming from the regulator output side, having a small gauge wire, because it is much closer to the positive power source
, Regulator, than if connected directly to the battery as many of us do.

And doing that isn't a problem-if my compressor for my Denali horn was connected to the output of the regulator, and it " locked rotor" ( normally it draws around 15 to 20 amp), pushing the horn button on a locked rotor situation might kill my ignition--And I would need to scramble and restart or hope I have enough forward movement to bump start on the release of the horn button.
 
#13 ·
Excellent Posts On Battery AH

http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...tator-testing-device-load-ratings-2015-a.html

http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/1116674-post4.html

http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...-far-can-you-ride-battery-without-stator.html
I will say that originally I looked at adding a capacitor, as the battery can only accept a charge at a certain rate, which BTW is important to note, if you left something on your bike turned on, that is you made a mistake adding a accessory, you are out in the boondocks and someone boosts you, your stator will put out roughly 11 amp in excess of what you need to run the bike, as you should know a AGM battery can take abuse like this, however expect this action to affect the long term life of the battery, if this should ever happen to you and the opportunity is such that you are still at home, put the battery on a 1 amp charger and correct your wiring.
 
#15 ·
Sorry, doesn't work that way.

The alternator would be connected to the battery via some charging electronics or perhaps a simple rectifier/regulator. Idk what the waveform looks like for the V650 system in terms of how clean it is, but in any case the output of the charging system is attached to the + and - terminals of the battery. Meanwhile those same terminals are connected to the hot battery bus and run into the power distribution system.

The battery in this circuit is effectively a very large capacitor. It will smooooth the voltage waveform very effectively to DC, soaking up extra electrons from the alternator/charger when the voltage goes up, and providing extra electrons when the voltage is drooping (from too much demand for the alternator to supply it at full voltage).

The battery cannot be both supplying current (discharging) and simultaneously accepting current (charging). After engine start the battery is slightly depleted and will charge. The alternator must provide enough current at operating voltage to both recharge the battery and run all the systems on the bike. Once the battery is charged up, the alternator provides current to run the bike systems, and the battery in a perfect world does nothing but in the real world smooths the voltage waveform as a capacitor.
So you say I'm wrong- but in your own words you say -quote-in the real world smooth's the voltage wavefom and that is a correct statement and what runs the bike-the smooth waveform ecu will not function on a pluse and what products that waveform the battery ergo bike runs off the battery--you also say the battery can not be both supplying current and accepting current-well to produce that waveform the pluse current from the charging system enters the through the positive side(because we do know that electrons flow positive to negative) go through the battery and out the negative side so the battery is simultaneously discharging and charging depending on the current load-and for me this topic is closed-can't make it any clearer :closed:
 
#16 ·
So you say I'm wrong- but in your own words you say -quote-in the real world smooth's the voltage wavefom and that is a correct statement and what runs the bike-the smooth waveform ecu will not function on a pluse and what products that waveform the battery ergo bike runs off the battery--you also say the battery can not be both supplying current and accepting current-well to produce that waveform the pluse current from the charging system enters the through the positive side(because we do know that electrons flow positive to negative) go through the battery and out the negative side so the battery is simultaneously discharging and charging depending on the current load-and for me this topic is closed-can't make it any clearer :closed:
Hey I don't want to be argumentative about this. I took your statement to be that the battery is supplying the juice to run the bike, and the alternator doesn't do anything more than charge the battery. But in fact the alternator is providing all of the electrical energy when the bike is running.

Yes the battery is necessary because the alternator rectifier circuit is constructed crudely, so the battery becomes a yuuuge capacitor to smooth out the voltage. The battery will soak up electrons when necessary, and will provide electrons when necessary, but it won't do both at the same time.

I think I remember that electrons flow from negative to positive. That was somewhere back in my college and grad school days in Electrical Engineering. Like I said I don't want to be argumentative on this forum, just trying to avoid misunderstandings.

eta: I used to be annoying in systems ground school, too, about the way things really work. The material provided to pilots is usually suggestive of how the system works, but is not technically accurate at all. Instructors don't usually dig any deeper themselves, so they can't answer questions. Don't look too closely at the electrical system or hydraulics diagrams! The real takeaway is usually "Red light BAD. Green light GOOD." Nowadays I just sit quietly sipping coffee when they send me to class.
 
#17 ·
One of the biggest problems-to me- with writing on the internet is trying to get your thoughts from your head to paper so it makes sense- after rereading everything I think we are on the same page just a few words are shifted around-and I don't want to argue either and yes back in the day 60's I was taught the same thing and all was good-silly old brit's with their reversed systems-it wasn't until I went back to school in 1988 this reversed thinking thing came up and I'm like wait a dam minute everything I was taught was wrong this changes every thing or does it- nope business as usual you just move your finger in a different direction on paper- if no one tells it does a light blub know or care which way current is flowing it still works- the brit's had it right all a long-who knew-now lets break out our zener diodes and toast them-long live Lucas
 
#18 ·
When I started in aviation we were trained to know EVERYTHING about each system, but at the end (of MY career) they just instructed us in how to USE the system.

PROBABLY a better way....
Yeah they used to want us to be able to build the airplane. My first checkride as a new hire with an airline was under that philosophy, but I lucked out. One of my siblings has epilepsy, and so I am aware that something which flashes at 60 per minute can trigger a seizure. In the systems book it mentioned the strobes flash at 50 per minute, which naturally was something I noticed because of my sibling.

At the beginning of the oral the check airman starts leafing through the book to find a question. "Let's see, how many flashes per minute on the wingtip strobes?", he asks. I tell him "Fifty". No joke, he closed the book and said if I knew that answer there was no need to ask me any more systems questions!
 
#19 ·
...
Don't use car battery chargers for elongated periods on a regular basis because the capacity to charge ratio needs to be observed & batteries have been known to "boil" when the charger output is too high...
No necessarily true. I have two car battery chargers, both of which have a setting for smaller batteries, and also have automatic float. Most newer chargers are microprocessor controlled.
 
#21 ·
What are the downsides to using a 9AH 12V battery instead of the OEM 10AH 12V battery with the Versys 650 (2016)? Out here in India, we do not have access to a 12V 10AH battery, and imported with duty costs a bomb.
I also have an electric bike,AH is the rating system they use for capacity which means distance on a charge basically. How long you can go a charge. They also use Watt hours,Kilowatt hours. So maybe your batteries over there have an AH rating as they double as power packs for electric mobility scooters and stuff like that.Cant see any difference in a motorcycle battery since the system is charging when the bike is running.If you were draining the bike power with the motor not running, like if the bike wouldnt start and you kept turning it over the 10 AH would last longer than a 9AH. Since its a capacity rating, a 9AH could be physically smaller with a lead-acid battery.
 
#22 ·
Follow on question. The 9ah battery has a 120cca vs the stock 180cca. Problem?
The 9 AH is key, and AGM Yuasa is key, the cold cranking amps higher output has more plates and they are thinner, and slightly more lead. Since our starter requires much less , no advantage of paying more or getting a higher cranking amp battery. (AH is 9 amps for 1 hour at 12 volts DC) or 108 watts for one hour.
 
#23 ·
The 9 AH is key, and AGM Yuasa is key, the cold cranking amps higher output has more plates and they are thinner, and slightly more lead. Since our starter requires much less , no advantage of paying more or getting a higher cranking amp battery. (AH is 9 amps for 1 hour at 12 volts DC) or 108 watts for one hour.
Well, its not even 9ah,am down to 8ah now. And yes, the battery is an AGM VRLA but not from yuasa.

I guess the lower capacity batteries life might be shorter? It costs 40% of the price of a stock yuasa agm battery.
 
#24 ·
https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html#4

Read above link through for better understanding of batteries.

Cold cranking amps (CCA) is a measurement of the number of amps a battery can deliver at 0°F for 30 seconds and not drop below 7.2 volts. So a high CCA battery rating is especially important in starting battery applications, and in cold weather.This measurement is not particularly important in deep cycle batteries, though it is the most commonly "known" battery measurement.
 
#25 ·
Gas Versys Diesel

Starter motor part numbers between the 1k and 650 reads the same on bikebandit. I think the entire alternator rectifier assembly is exactly the same.
Gas Versys Diesel , yes I didn't misspell , it wasn't until recently did I remember that KLR made a military diesel version. So if your bike is a diesel version, then go for the highest cranking amp battery, a word of warning, some have decided that using a lithium battery is the way to go, lighter etc. , be aware cold drastically affects the output, more than 3 times the price of a good AGM battery and my experience is that all my bikes, for the last 40 years have had Yuasa batteries that lasted from 5 to 7 years.
To go a step further, when I was about to sell my 07 Versys, the battery was around 12.5 VDC after keying off for a few minutes, this created a extra load on the stator, when I replaced it, I was given the option. "You want the regular battery for $70, or the high output one for $100, ( both same AH )" Yes I chose the $70 one, because I knew better, and my guess is many would spend the $100 thinking more is better, yes even I hesitated for a minute
, asked what the difference was, then my brain kicked in>:), expect the Vendor to be making more money on the high CCA battery.
 
#26 ·
My battery voltage measures about 10.5 at crank and 12.5-12.75 at rest. Is this normal or at the edge (especially om crank). My battery when new went dead (some wiring issue between the alternator and battery) and i had to recharge it fully to begin using it again. This battery is now 2.5 years old. Made in thailand yuasa.
Two tests, one what is the charging voltage at idle? Second measure the voltage after a 20 minute or more ride, check after keying off waiting 5 minutes, post that voltage, check again after hours of sitting before starting, post that voltage.

The very last I would suggest getting the battery load tested, I have my own load tester from Princess Auto, you need to compensate for the fact that this is meant for a car battery, however it is the initial current and sustained current / per #minutes that you look for ( test duration 3 to 5 minutes).
 
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