Kawasaki Versys Forum

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-   Technical Discussion - V1000 (https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/130-technical-discussion-v1000/)
-   -   Onewizard gets it right (https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/130-technical-discussion-v1000/222473-onewizard-gets-right.html)

Steve in Sunny Fl 12-15-2019 10:57 AM

Onewizard gets it right
 
He runs a Thermobob on his versys 650.

As you know I have tuned the 650, and now the 1000. During the course of this, I learn the bike I'm working on. Currently I'm on the 1000, and our weather in Fl has cooled. The ridiculous 140* thermostat has raised it's ugly head. So now there's a low temp of 140 and a high temp 0f about 210. Stupid. Not good for the engine, not good for fuel economy. Nothing to be gained at all.

Just to put a point on it, the other similar bikes to the v1000 have the same setup. I imagine because the ninja is faired it can tolerate the low temp thermostat a little better, because the fairing stalls some airflow and heat exchange. The v1000 has a pretty exposed engine, lots of surface area to lose heat. The 140* thermostat is a real inhibitor to consistent, efficient operation.

I'm looking at options, of course a bypassing system like a Thermobob would be best. I may try to source a 180* thermostat, or just reach out to Watt-man (Thermobob inventor) and see if we can get something cobbled up together.

BTW, cooling systems are really pretty simple deals, it exchanges engine heat to the ambient air. The better we control the engine temp in a narrow band REGARDLESS of ambient air temps, the better all around operation would be.

And think of it this way... during the summer your v1000 is always running over 180*, so a 180* thermostat wouldn't make it run any warmer, But during the cooler rides when coolant temp is 140 to 160... that extra heat from the engine would be nice. No downsides.

Onewizard, tell us about the Thermobob, and what your experience has been. This would be a big deal for the v1000.

Steve

52Degrees 12-15-2019 11:55 AM

Had to look that one up to see how it works.

Out here in Modesto, temps are expected into to low 20s and occasionally into the low teens during winter, and 115 in the summer isn't unreasonable.

I mean, 115 is never reasonable, but you get the idea.

With temps currently into the high 30s, I'm seeing typical coolant temperatures at around the 147 mark, and occasionally dippie into the 130s. Mileage sufferers pretty dramatically in winter, even taking into account our wonderful "winter blend" fuel that is foisted upon us by regulators.

Since my experience is with engines that are minimally twice the displacement (and roughly four times the mass) of motorcycle engines, it never occurred to me that there might be an issue with the low operating temperatures in experiencing. It makes sense, but I guess I figured kawi engineers had a clue when they developed this engine.

Cool stuff... Is like to know where all this goes.

fasteddiecopeman 12-15-2019 02:11 PM

I've known "Watt-man" (Bill) for at least 12 or 13 years, since I bought one of his ORIGINAL 'Thermo-Bobs' for my KLR650. THAT bike had a temp-gauge, and it went from fluctuating wildly (stock), to rapidly getting "to temp" and then stayed there.

Then in '08 I bought BIG RED, and it turned out - so had Bill - and he was developing a Thermo-Bob for the Versys650 using it. I got one of his FIRST ones, installed it and liked it, so I bought another for my '09 up in Canada, and installed IT.

When the '09 was written-off (summer of '15) I was 'forced' to buy a '15 (Gen 3 V650), so Bill "proto-typed" a Thermo-Bob for it, for me. I worked-out the installation on mine, then supplied my pics and notes to him (which are the ones on his site for the Gen 3 650s installation).

GREAT KIT!!!

:grin2:

Steve in Sunny Fl 12-15-2019 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fasteddiecopeman (Post 1638699)
I've known "Watt-man" (Bill) for at least 12 or 13 years, since I bought one of his ORIGINAL 'Thermo-Bobs' for my KLR650. THAT bike had a temp-gauge, and it went from fluctuating wildly (stock), to rapidly getting "to temp" and then stayed there.

Then in '08 I bought BIG RED, and it turned out - so had Bill - and he was developing a Thermo-Bob for the Versys650 using it. I got one of his FIRST ones, installed it and liked it, so I bought another for my '09 up in Canada, and installed IT.

When the '09 was written-off (summer of '15) I was 'forced' to buy a '15 (Gen 3 V650), so Bill "proto-typed" a Thermo-Bob for it, for me. I worked-out the installation on mine, then supplied my pics and notes to him (which are the ones on his site for the Gen 3 650s installation).

GREAT KIT!!!

:grin2:

I wasn't trying to ignore you or minimize you in any way Ed, I only knew of Onewizard's experience with the thermobob because of a post I happened into.

onewizard 12-15-2019 03:38 PM

ThermoBob / #4 snow bike / MK-3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve in Sunny Fl (Post 1638683)
He runs a Thermobob on his versys 650.

As you know I have tuned the 650, and now the 1000. During the course of this, I learn the bike I'm working on. Currently I'm on the 1000, and our weather in Fl has cooled. The ridiculous 140* thermostat has raised it's ugly head. So now there's a low temp of 140 and a high temp 0f about 210. Stupid. Not good for the engine, not good for fuel economy. Nothing to be gained at all.

Just to put a point on it, the other similar bikes to the v1000 have the same setup. I imagine because the ninja is faired it can tolerate the low temp thermostat a little better, because the fairing stalls some airflow and heat exchange. The v1000 has a pretty exposed engine, lots of surface area to lose heat. The 140* thermostat is a real inhibitor to consistent, efficient operation.

I'm looking at options, of course a bypassing system like a Thermobob would be best. I may try to source a 180* thermostat, or just reach out to Watt-man (Thermobob inventor) and see if we can get something cobbled up together.

BTW, cooling systems are really pretty simple deals, it exchanges engine heat to the ambient air. The better we control the engine temp in a narrow band REGARDLESS of ambient air temps, the better all around operation would be.

And think of it this way... during the summer your v1000 is always running over 180*, so a 180* thermostat wouldn't make it run any warmer, But during the cooler rides when coolant temp is 140 to 160... that extra heat from the engine would be nice. No downsides.

Onewizard, tell us about the Thermobob, and what your experience has been. This would be a big deal for the v1000.

Steve

Not going to copy all my photos,https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...o-install.html but if you go to post 77 you will see my current #4 ThermoBob, this was before I understood how to use BB code. Post 83 shows my bypass temperature gauge, FYI this really is a parallel circuit when the engine is at temperature, even with the thermostat fully open, the radiator is somewhat of a restriction when looking at the output flow rate / water pump pressure, so my engine never gets 100% fluid through the radiator on a hot day, no worries, since the flash my fan comes on before I am at the boiling point, and the engine virtually runs at 187 to 195 'F winter and summer all the time, even at 120 KM/HR in 3'C weather.How do I know?
This was a fan cycle before the flash was done.Now normal temperature is 187'F or a maximum 205'F at idle in 90'F weather with the fan running at 1500 RPM
https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...ictureid=27103

This is my bypass line where a normal ThermoBob would go, very little room compared to the MK-2 Versys
https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...ictureid=27073
Be aware that this was experimental and I doubt anyone could get this from Bill
https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...ictureid=27095

https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...ictureid=27091
This photo was taken shooting upward, notice the inflow from the OEM Tstat housing of the #4 is above the frame and the bypass outflow to the water pump is below, Bill said he wouldn't promote this because my high point is not the rad but the outflow / bypass line, which could cause air to be trapped in here in initial start up after install. I have run this for over 3 years now. Like I said, you would be surprised as how long it takes to get up to temp when it is say 6'C outside.
https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...ictureid=27093

So to explain a couple things, many don't realize, first the OEM T stat has a bleed hole which allows a small amount of fluid through, think about being inside your engine during initial warm up, areas closest to the combustion chamber will heat faster than those farther away, your water pump is dead heading against the T stat. So we have a heat transfer going on inside the water jacket of the Versys, eventually a small amount of fluid makes it's way through the stat and the Tstat bulb starts to see a higher temperature and starts to open , we then get some flow, only problem is if we are talking below 15'C , the water entering the pump is colder and the stat is bound to close off some, restricting flow. It gets much more complicated than this, here is a active discussion https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...o-install.html

My 2015 in action at 0'C , immediate start up I get water flow through my bypass line at a rate of about 15 times that of OEM Tstat, and that flow goes directly to the intake of the pump, my water jacket within the engine distributes heat evenly, there are no hot spots, no sudden heat rise within the engine. My 2015 Comes up to 187'F and stays there, at 0'C it takes about 8 minutes at idle, fast idle drops out around 160'F. Compare the ThermoBob to a human athlete in winter, I use this as at one time I cross country skied, my coldest was in a wind chill of minus 60'C , air temp was minus 36'C , we had to wait until it warmed up to minus 30'C . My point is , surviving in the cold, you use layers, you remove layers and never want to sweat, before you get chilled you add layers. At minus 30'C my gloves froze in 30 seconds. That was a sanctioned loppet put on by Labatts , many had frostbitten fingers and toes , unfortunately Ontario has too many lawyers and that eventually caused the end of it.
I will add one more comparison, the light dimmer and incandescent bulbs, technology has spilled over into LED lighting / dimming devices. It was discovered when slid dimmers came out that bringing the bulb up from fully off extended the life of the bulb almost double the hours. Todays LED dimmer technology uses the same , but for different reasons, one is a sudden turn off at full brilliance will cause a collapsing field in reverse of the applied, by dimming in turning off, this is vastly reduced. Bringing the inside of the engine evenly up to temperature is what the ThermoBob does, plus that Tstat bulb is getting water flow over it continuously, the water pump is never dead headed, and I don't see how my #4 snow bike stat will ever have a air lock in it.

Steve in Sunny Fl 12-15-2019 05:01 PM

all you need to stop the air lock is a brake bleeder installed at the high point - if possible. Steve

onewizard 12-15-2019 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve in Sunny Fl (Post 1638735)
all you need to stop the air lock is a brake bleeder installed at the high point - if possible. Steve

I found that the housing is so small that I never had a problem. I ran the engine for 1 minute intervals on initial install , kept adding glycol until all air was out. I then installed the rad cap and that bypass gauge has been present since the very first install . Since the bypass registered a temperature increase I considered that I had flow. I then went through a complete heat cycle, running it up until the fan came on, during this time you could see air coming up into the reservoir . I then let the motor cool down, this drew fluid into the rad, something to think about, try draining the fluid using the drain plug, notice very little comes out, as you are producing a vacuum, take the rad cap off and stand back because now the fluid will shoot out the drain plug.

What I am saying is, once you have the air out , no worries. I have been dealing with water cooled electrical equipment for over 35 years, that includes expansion tanks that have about 7 to 9 pounds air pressure when empty. It was 2002 when Inductotherm realized they were mounting their expansion tanks wrong. They were mounting horizontally, they are now mounted vertically with the pipe fitting at the bottom. Before you were pushing uphill , using the 7 pounds air pressure to get water out, also the bladder had a tendency to block the outlet mounted horizontal. Why discuss expansion tanks? Because in part this is related to ethylene glycol and how it works, in my case we were using low conductivity ethylene glycol ( no rust inhibitors as they are conductive)and de-ionized water , mixed with a 50/50 solution in a plastic tank when possible, never in a steel drum, unless you want chocolate cooling water, you get oxygen released, oxygen and steel produce great amounts of rust.

The ethylene glycol releases the oxygen in the water, if you watched some of the devices used to extract air in a closed water system, you would find that many are similar to a wire brush, what happens is the small bubbles are pulled out of the coolant flow and rise to the top, since the radiator has many fins, it is very similar to this air bleeder. I am going to say that the very first heat cycle of my #4 Thermobob had 98% of the air removed from the system, the next heat cycle completed the remaining 2%. The most important thing about any cooling system using a pump, when doing major service, make sure you allow air to come out while filling the system, that includes short run cycles , 30 seconds or less, if the pump loses prim or gets air in it, it can't pump water. Fill the rad full, just cranking the motor is sufficient to move coolant, don't run until you are completely full in the rad.

For those without a ThermoBob, be aware if you changed the T stat, you are going to have about half a liter of air between the rad and T stat and that large slug of air withh move the instant the stat starts opening, before that the bleed hole will allow some coolant / air to pass. If you look at my mounting, the bypass line had fluid shooting directly onto the thermostat , the instant I started the bike.

_Big_Mac_ 12-16-2019 03:46 AM

Why does Kawasaki put such a thermostat there instead of a 180? Does it save a few pennies? I'd imagine they'd cost the same. Is it an engineering mistake on their part?

onewizard 12-16-2019 10:24 AM

Closed loop / Bypass
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by _Big_Mac_ (Post 1638757)
Why does Kawasaki put such a thermostat there instead of a 180? Does it save a few pennies? I'd imagine they'd cost the same. Is it an engineering mistake on their part?

I think you are missing how this works. First to @Steve in Sunny Fl , what size is the rad hose going into the water pump and from the T stat? I see no reason why you couldn't use the T Bob for the Versys 650. My snow bike stat housing was experimental and I got one of the first castings, Bill installed a 10'F higher T stat in it as I wanted to use the discharge .The position of the thermostat was oriented in that #4 so that the bypass coolant was passing over the temperature bulb. I had two reasons, one , there is less room on the Mk-3 to mount the T Bob on the water pump / return side, and two, even though it is minor, you get stratification on the water pump side.

So a explanation I don't think I have ever done this way before. If you are old enough, in the 1960 to 1980's , it wasn't unusual to see cars or pickups with cardboard in front of the rad. Before I get too deep here, generally speaking , all cars have a coolant bypass, it is called the car heater, coolant goes from the water pump through the engine and bypasses the thermostat and radiator through the heater core and back to the return side of the water pump, as the coolant heats up above the setting of the T stat, fluid then starts to pass through the radiator, depending on how cold it is and how much energy you are putting into the motor, you may find that the returning coolant from the rad causes the T stat to close down, one way is to reduce the cooling effect of the radiator. This is a crude comparison because the T Bob is designed to maintain engine temperature, our car cooling system wasn't.

So in the 1960-1980 , T stats were cheap and cheaply made, you knew you had a T stat failed stuck open when after driving for half a hour you still didn't have enough heat to melt the frost on the windshield.So a interim measure was to stick some cheap cardboard in front of the rad. I use this to explain the OEM cooling system, during warm up, the water pump is dead heading, ( not 100 % true as a extremely small amount of coolant passes through the bleed hole, but compared to the T Bob, dead heading is appropriate because the fluid through the T Bob is about 20 times that of OEM during warm up).

I could compare the OEM cooling system to a coffee maker, a coffee maker heats water up within a chamber, when it is correct in is then allowed to pass through the coffee grounds / filter to the pot, during the heating process, the area closet to the heating element is the hottest, yes poor comparison, however my point is within the water chamber of our motor , there are going to be hot spots, the water eventually becomes one temperature, once it reaches the T Stat set temp and the stat starts to open, we get water flow to the rad, a equal amount of water comes from the rad to the water pump, this coolant is at whatever temperature the bike was stored in or ambient temp.Let me say it could be 10'C, when that 10'C fluid enters the pump, expect the thermostat to close down and that engine water chamber just received a shock / sudden temperature drop .

For those that understand and wish to correct me, the stat doesn't open 100 % instantly or close 100% instantly, it opens directly proportional to the temperature rise above set point, it also closes down the same way, however it does take time, so when this slug of cold coolant passes through the engine, it may be 5 seconds before it fully closes. Yes we just dropped the engine temperature in this process, eventually everything will warm up , close to operating temperature, but at or below 10'C your 650 Versys will never be at full operating temperature 100% of the time, even at 6000 RPM doing 130 KM/HR, my 2015 is at full operating temperature along with the oil, within 10 minutes of starting the motor and 100% of the time after that. One thing i missed stating, the engine is heating only the coolant within the motor and the bypass line, OEM the engine needs to heat all the coolant and depending on air flow and ambient temperature, the coolant entering the pump could be considerably cooler than optimum engine temperature.

The T Bob is a very clever design, it wasn't designed to make a car interior warm, it was designed to maintain a perfect operating temperature specifically for the benefit of the motor. The secret is , and I am repeating myself,the bypass line only heats the coolant in the engine water chamber and the bypass line, as the coolant heats up to T stat opening set point, the stat slowly opens, initially a small amount of fluid goes through the rad, it returns through the T Bob, if that fluid were say 80'F cooler, it would first cause the stat to start closing however it is mixed with the hot bypass fluid, so what goes past the water pump is modified water temperature. In reality the T Bob was engineered to have the bypass line sized such that the engine never sees a change of more than 5'F , I am guessing at this, the open discussion by Bill has a graph showing this.

So you guys in Florida no worries, however , even at 60'F your 650 will not perform the same as my T Bob 650, when I am coasting or at low RPM's, the energy going into the motor is less, the flash Steve did has made a drastic change, at low RPM ( 2000RPM) my motor was always running hot when we had 90'F weather, not anymore.

Yes the motor in Florida without the T Bob may last just as long as my T Bob motor, and yes the T stat will close down as heat is removed by the rad and it will open up to increase flow to the rad when the engine temperature rises, and yes your engine is heating and cooling, expanding, condensation in the oil occurs and this action attributed to the elongation of the cylinders of the KLR where the T Bob was born. I said it about 8 years ago, the T Bob is a excellent investment if you ride in weather below 15'C.

SteveJ 12-17-2019 02:24 PM

I have the Therm o bob on my gen 3 and I live in FLA. Big difference in warm up times so it must be working. No apparent over heat issues in 108* AZ heat. Why did they not put a temp gauge on it from the factory is beyond me.

SiSF, if you wanna take a look at it I can buzz over but I'll also be at the Last Blast Before...

fasteddiecopeman 12-17-2019 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve in Sunny Fl (Post 1638715)
I wasn't trying to ignore you or minimize you in any way Ed, I only knew of Onewizard's experience with the thermobob because of a post I happened into.

No - I didn't think THAT, Steve. I just wanted to mention my personal history w/ Bill AND his Thermo-Bob, and my 'experience'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJ (Post 1638915)
...Why did they not put a temp gauge on it from the factory is beyond me....

After watching the temp-gauge on my KLR - UP, DOWN, etc, when STOCK - I think they left the gauge OFF on the V650 for TWO reasons - 1. saves a few pennies; and 2. cuts back on visits from owners 'scared' by the needle's flickering ALL the time.


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