FZ-09 fueling - Kawasaki Versys Forum
Other Motorcycle Make and Model Discussion Discuss other motorcycles by Kawasaki or any other motorcycle / automobile manufacturer here.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-14-2015, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
chadams66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Garden Home, Oregon
Posts: 1,139
FZ-09 fueling

for all of those thinking of stepping up to a Yammie FZ-09 this is the best article I've found on the fueling issue..why it's bad and how it can be fixed...Nels of 2 Wheel Dyno Works is well known in the Seattle to Portland area and is the MAN when it comes to Dyno tuning around here...The FJ-09's fueling is supposed to have fixed "most" of the 07's problems...

http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread...d_digest_%2359

chadams66 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-15-2015, 12:04 AM
Member
 
saddlebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Eutopia
Posts: 1,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadams66 View Post
for all of those thinking of stepping up to a Yammie FZ-09 this is the best article I've found on the fueling issue..why it's bad and how it can be fixed...Nels of 2 Wheel Dyno Works is well known in the Seattle to Portland area and is the MAN when it comes to Dyno tuning around here...The FJ-09's fueling is supposed to have fixed "most" of the 07's problems...

http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread...d_digest_%2359

I've read that cutting off fuel on decel is the cause of this herky jerky on/off throttle crap on many FI bikes. It never happened on carb'd bikes because they couldn't cut off fuel if they wanted to. My question is do they really completely cut off fuel? If so, how the hell does the engine not die during decel...or does it?
saddlebag is offline  
post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-15-2015, 01:11 AM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1,445
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by saddlebag View Post
I've read that cutting off fuel on decel is the cause of this herky jerky on/off throttle crap on many FI bikes. It never happened on carb'd bikes because they couldn't cut off fuel if they wanted to. My question is do they really completely cut off fuel? If so, how the hell does the engine not die during decel...or does it?
if you read the article is says that fuel is cut when the rpms are over 4500 and then below 4500 rpm fuel is slowly returned so that the engine can run at idle.

So basically when you twist the throttle and rev the guts out to 10,000 rpm then release the throttle you will be slammed with a lot of engine braking as the engine is actually not being fueled and you are are effectively using your inertial to keep the engine turning and the braking is the resistive forces of the engine. But once the rpm's reduce enough you still want the engine to keep running once at idle or if you decide to go back onto throttle, an that is the balancing act or Fuel mapping in ECU's.
When do you add fuel to the engine, how much etc... if it is done poorly - as is this case of v1.0 of FZ-09 mapping - then you suffer from stuttering, jerking, or just huge bursts of power when you use smallest re-turn back onto the throttle - and this can be dangerous mid corner or when conditions are slick.

I just came back from a nice bike run with a guy who has the Australian version called the MT-09 - he says power is great but it is very dangerous. You basically have to ride it like a hooligan to not affect you. I'm going to tell him about the articles as he wants to fix the crap suspension as well.

Last edited by Gigitt; 02-15-2015 at 01:17 AM.
Gigitt is offline  
 
post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-15-2015, 04:14 AM
Member
 
saddlebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Eutopia
Posts: 1,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigitt View Post
So basically when you twist the throttle and rev the guts out to 10,000 rpm then release the throttle you will be slammed with a lot of engine braking as the engine is actually not being fueled and you are are effectively using your inertial to keep the engine turning and the braking is the resistive forces of the engine. But once the rpm's reduce enough you still want the engine to keep running once at idle or if you decide to go back onto throttle, an that is the balancing act or Fuel mapping in ECU's.
So if I read this correctly, you are saying the engine is indeed dead during decel until it gets back to around idle or you get back on the throttle, right? I've never seen anyone come right out and say it, just imply it by saying that the fuel to the cylinders is cut at decel.

Chevy's cut out half their cylinders while cruising, Harleys cut out one when idling. From a functional standpoint, I guess it's no big deal, but it just seems strange to me that the engine is dead about half the time I'm running it through the mountains. Odd to me that American bikes don't seem to suffer this affliction the way so many large displacement foreign bikes do.
saddlebag is offline  
post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-15-2015, 05:16 AM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1,445
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by saddlebag View Post
So if I read this correctly, you are saying the engine is indeed dead during decel until it gets back to around idle or you get back on the throttle, right? I've never seen anyone come right out and say it, just imply it by saying that the fuel to the cylinders is cut at decel.
I don't know what they do ... The engine is not dead... The article told me that the fueling is cut during deceleration until the RPM's come back down to 4500 rpm. so between 4500 rpm and Idle (~1300) one can only assume that fuel is then slowly added at increasing amounts untill the RPM's drop closer to Idle - as you don't want to engine to actually stall.

Take this with a grain of salt - but generally speaking Carburetor engine are not that fuel efficient as they always fuel the engine even when off throttle and decelerating - and usually these engines do not have much engine braking. EFI engine use Fuel Maps and the engineers found that to increase fuel efficiency you can easily remove fuel on deceleration - this in turn increase engine braking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddlebag View Post
Chevy's cut out half their cylinders while cruising, Harleys cut out one when idling. From a functional standpoint, I guess it's no big deal, but it just seems strange to me that the engine is dead about half the time I'm running it through the mountains. Odd to me that American bikes don't seem to suffer this affliction the way so many large displacement foreign bikes do.
Yes you can also blame the engineers for making gas guzzling V8 more efficient by turning off fuel to cylinders while cruising... it is actually quite a smart approach... same principle is LIMP mode in cars... reduce fueling and or turn off bad cylinder so car will get you a workshop.
Gigitt is offline  
post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-15-2015, 07:23 AM
Member
 
invader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kapuskasing Ontario Canada
Posts: 7,815
invader is offline  
post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-15-2015, 08:36 AM
Member
 
saddlebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Eutopia
Posts: 1,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigitt View Post
I don't know what they do ... The engine is not dead... The article told me that the fueling is cut during deceleration until the RPM's come back down to 4500 rpm.
If there is no fuel as it decelerates from 10k rpm to 4500 rpm, there is no bang in the suck, squish, bang, blow process. That tells me the engine is essentially dead. One needs fuel to make bang, no?
saddlebag is offline  
post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-15-2015, 08:40 AM
Member
 
saddlebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Eutopia
Posts: 1,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigitt View Post
Yes you can also blame the engineers for making gas guzzling V8 more efficient by turning off fuel to cylinders while cruising... it is actually quite a smart approach... same principle is LIMP mode in cars... reduce fueling and or turn off bad cylinder so car will get you a workshop.
I'm not blaming engineers for meeting standards, I'm simply trying to wrap my head around why it's necessary to "cut off" fuel during decel. I can understand cutting it back, but cutting it off seems a like a bit of overkill. Especially since people have been complaining about the abrupt on/off fueling on these foreign bikes for so long. Maybe they have stock in Power Commander or something.
saddlebag is offline  
post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-15-2015, 10:31 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
chadams66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Garden Home, Oregon
Posts: 1,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by saddlebag View Post
If there is no fuel as it decelerates from 10k rpm to 4500 rpm, there is no bang in the suck, squish, bang, blow process. That tells me the engine is essentially dead. One needs fuel to make bang, no?
You are correct sir...AND it (the ECU) doesn't slowly reintroduce fuel below 4,500 rpm..it slams it in there..which makes the 07 herky jerky in the corners when you go to roll on the throttle...It's dangerous (this is not my opinion alone)...different amounts of fueling will result in different amounts of engine braking (no fuel=heavy engine braking)...You don't just reflash your ECU or change your map to go faster...I just got my Versys re-tuned by a race tuner..the difference is almost night and day...Now for some better springs up front...

chadams66 is offline  
post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-16-2015, 01:02 AM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1,445
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by saddlebag View Post
If there is no fuel as it decelerates from 10k rpm to 4500 rpm, there is no bang in the suck, squish, bang, blow process. That tells me the engine is essentially dead. One needs fuel to make bang, no?

Engine is not dead... it is just in free run.
All the sensors, ECU and electrical bits are still working and monitoring what is going on. Essentially you are sitting on an air compressor when there is no fuel during deceleration.

A Dead Engine is when you loose all power and electrics controlling it.`

Yes fuel makes it go bang... but you are off the throttle and sending signal of 0% fuel to engine.
Throttle does not control engine idle - the Idles screw and ECU does.

Last edited by Gigitt; 02-16-2015 at 01:13 AM.
Gigitt is offline  
post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-16-2015, 04:04 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
chadams66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Garden Home, Oregon
Posts: 1,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigitt View Post
Engine is not dead... it is just in free run.
All the sensors, ECU and electrical bits are still working and monitoring what is going on. Essentially you are sitting on an air compressor when there is no fuel during deceleration.

A Dead Engine is when you loose all power and electrics controlling it.`

Yes fuel makes it go bang... but you are off the throttle and sending signal of 0% fuel to engine.
Throttle does not control engine idle - the Idles screw and ECU does.
What you say is true...The only thing keeping the engine turning over from 10k down to 4.5k when you throttle down is the chain..and transmission...If your bike turns over but doesn't start..you turn to your buddy and say..she's dead...

chadams66 is offline  
post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-16-2015, 04:21 AM
Member
 
invader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kapuskasing Ontario Canada
Posts: 7,815
Nick Stolten • 3 days ago

"We're working on something with a new supplier to address the closed loop fueling. In it's current form, Yamaha maintains a stoichiometric air/fuel ratio, which is currently non-adjustable on the FZ-09 (using any of the tools available to us). I was hoping to include this in the article, but we're still waiting on parts (and weather). More to follow..."
invader is offline  
post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-16-2015, 11:25 AM
Member
 
MaverickAus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW, Australia
Posts: 2,040
Garage
Glad I don't own a dog like that
MaverickAus is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Kawasaki Versys Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome