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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Nationalism

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Originally Posted by charly View Post
I have an Alpinestars mesh jacket and love it. The Alpinestars pants, however, zip all the way around. It's made in Indonesia but...are you stuck in the 60's? The Vietnam war is over. It's okay to support their economy.
I think it is VERY important to support our own economy. If Buell sold a UlyssesXT for less than double the cost of my Versys I'd be riding one now instead.
That said, it is not always feasible to buy American. In that case I only purchase from countries worthy of my support. When you support a foreign economy, you support their policies as well. The VietNam war is over, I am not stuck in the 60's. They still have an oppressive government and are populated by people with few rights or freedoms. The government has shown no remorse for the torture and mistreatment of our POW's and has not adequately accounted for MIA's we know had been captured. This is not a country that deserves any support.
Members of my family fought in that war, one gave his life. Members of my family also fought against Italy, Germany, and Japan in WW2. A few gave their lives. I willingly purchase things made in Italy, Germany, and Japan because they have become democratically based governments with good records on human rights and reasonably fair economic policies. They are worthy of our support.
Non democratic countries with terrible human rights records are not worthy of support. This includes, but is not limited to, China, Vietnam, Saudi Arabia, etc...

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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 11:23 AM
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I think there is one thing you may have overlooked. Buying products from China doesn’t support the Chinese government and their policies, it supports the people and promotes the spread of capitalism. Capitalism requires an openness that in turn promotes freedoms. Also, the richer the people of a country are, the more educated the people become, and as they become more educated they become more informed about the world and begin demanding more rights and freedoms. Economics and freedoms are intertwined in a complex weave that can not be completely separated.
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 11:28 AM
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... and I'd have to add that protectionism (not buying stuff made elsewhere) is what caused the Depression in the '30s to become the "GREAT DEPRESSION"!
Ed
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 11:42 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pegasus View Post
I think there is one thing you may have overlooked. Buying products from China doesn’t support the Chinese government and their policies, it supports the people and promotes the spread of capitalism. Capitalism requires an openness that in turn promotes freedoms. Also, the richer the people of a country are, the more educated the people become, and as they become more educated they become more informed about the world and begin demanding more rights and freedoms. Economics and freedoms are intertwined in a complex weave that can not be completely separated.
Didn't overlook that at all, it is the oft quoted mantra that just isn't true. Buying products from China DOES support the government and their policies. China has become a major world power fueled by the massive amounts of wealth transferred from our country to theirs. We could get away with that here only for as long as we could get credit to make up for that lost wealth. Now that that credit has crunched we are hurting, and having to beg the Chinese to lend us back billions (or trillions) that we have spent there just to keep our country going. The freedoms and rights that were supposed to come with the wealth in China have not and are not materializing; it has always been and will always be a false hope. As long as we have to keep begging them for money, we have absolutely no bargaining power either.

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Originally Posted by fasteddiecopeman View Post
... and I'd have to add that protectionism (not buying stuff made elsewhere) is what caused the Depression in the '30s to become the "GREAT DEPRESSION"!
Ed
I don't support tariffs or protectionist trade policies. Don't need that to buy at home or from decent countries.
BTW, China is doing quite well economically with very stiff protectionist policies.

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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 12:29 PM
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What's an American made product?


This?
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 01:29 PM
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This is a very complicated issue. The reason I brought up Vietnam in my post was that it is becoming a popular tourist destination. I have friends who have travelled to Vietnam recently and they were very impressed with the people and their culture.

China, however, is a difficult issue for me. I visit Central America frequently and was in Panama last year. I bought some "Smile" toothpaste and then the news hit that the Chinese were selling melamine laced toothpaste. Sure enough, I was using Chinese toothpaste. I threw it in the garbage. It was cheap and it was a killer. How many Panamanians got sick from that stuff because they couldn't afford the good stuff?

Quality control has a long ways to go in China. They have been known to manufacture knock-off circuit breakers with the UL marking and a recognized manufacturers name molded in. The only problem is that they are wired straight through with no trip mechanism at all.

It's almost impossible not to buy Chinese manufactured goods. Try buying toys at your local Walmart that aren't manufactured in China. With such a disgusting safety record would you trust a toddler with Chinese manufactured toys?

North American manufacturers, however, are feeding the manufacturing frenzy in China. They are fast tracking the widening of the Panama Canal because there isn't enough port space on the left coast of North America. With such a huge volume of freight coming in from off shore it's also making it easier for organized crime to import illicit drugs.

I don't believe in embargos because they hurt the people more than they do the government. And the Cuba embargo is a joke. With so many American manufacturers sourcing goods from other countries, it's easy to get a Country of Origin certificate that isn't US and the product is just routed through Canada on its way to Cuba. The same goes for embargo nations in the Middle East.

I have heard that many North American manufacturers have built plants on the coast of China. Once the pollution got unbearable and the cost of labor went up, they closed the plants down and moved them inland to cleaner air and cheaper labor.

That being said, I try to buy North American manufactured goods whenever I can. I'm Canadian but don't hesitate to buy American made goods. We're on this continent together. When I hear of American protectionist policies that try to shut out Canadian made goods it just pi$$es me off. We have a North American Free Trade Agreement that special interest groups in the US are always trying to weasel out of.

Last edited by charly; 06-04-2009 at 01:43 PM.
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 01:48 PM
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Yes, I agree that China has it’s faults, knock off’s, protectionism, and lack of quality control. But so did we 50 years ago and that is approximately the state that China is in now. Their government took quick and decisive action against those responsible for the melamine laced milk. You have to give credit for trying. You can’t come out of the dark ages overnight. When I was a boy, I rewrapped the water pipes under the house and the oil heater exhaust pipe with asbestos every fall. I also always crimped the lead weights onto my fishing line with my teeth and started smoking. All because not only myself, but no one knew the dangers of these things. Live and learn, and that is what you have to give time for. I think that you are not very tolerant of others, and where did you most of your information from…Rush Limbaugh?
Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 01:54 PM
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Yep, America is soooooooooooo much better at quality control than China.




(posted while I enjoy my peanut butter sandwich)
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 01:55 PM
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A lot of products list a specific country, but that is often very incorrect. Many parts of many products (motorcycle and otherwise) are created in different countries. Hell, there's a higher percentage of Chinese manufactured parts in Ford, GM, and other American cars than American manufactured parts. Toyota and Honda cars however have a very high percentage of US parts, and are even built here. You likely support our economy more buy buying a foreign car than a domestic. I never take labels for what they say, unless its a legal requirement by some food agency, there's really no way to tell where something came from unless you are managing their supply chain. That motorcycle jacket could say made in Vietnam, most likely it was simply sewn together there. The textiles, zippers, armor plates, and more could be from all over, even our important trade partners. The global economy is very important, and it is the reason for our status of living. Many governments have differing opinions on how to govern, and have made questionably immoral actions. I have no desire to make that seem unimportant or ignore those past actions, but that does not mean they aren't important to us and cannot affect us. We all gain through international trade!
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 01:59 PM
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Btw Potus, I'm not trying to be mean, but almost any textile/zipper is made somewhere in asia. America simply does not have companies that can compete as manufacturing suppliers for those simply parts. Your old jackets may say, made in Canada, and likely they are cut and sewn together in Canada with parts from Malaysia, China, Taiwan, etc. There is very little that you can by in North America that doesn't support foreign economies, especially China. Without them we'd be wearing sheepskins.
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 02:11 PM
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I'm not being hypocritical, I hardly know who Rush Limbaugh is and I speak from my own experience. I'm in the manufacturing business. And I don't manufacture planks.

Last edited by charly; 06-04-2009 at 03:09 PM.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 02:29 PM
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Without them we'd be wearing sheepskins.
Not sheepshins. Just VERY expensive clothing.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
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Btw Potus, I'm not trying to be mean, but almost any textile/zipper is made somewhere in asia. America simply does not have companies that can compete as manufacturing suppliers for those simply parts. Your old jackets may say, made in Canada, and likely they are cut and sewn together in Canada with parts from Malaysia, China, Taiwan, etc. There is very little that you can by in North America that doesn't support foreign economies, especially China. Without them we'd be wearing sheepskins.
Actually, while most sheepskins on the global market come from Australia and New Zealand, most are tanned in China. I do my homework. I can't completely avoid China, but I do a decent job. I do not buy ANYTHING that SAYS made in China, and wherever there's an option I avoid things with parts sourced from China.
We purchased a new Dodge Nitro last year. More than half of the parts were made here in the U.S., and it was assembled in Ohio. There were some parts that came from Canada. There were a lot from Central and South America.
I am not against buying from foreign countries. Just the hostile and objectionable ones. I'm not even against buying Asian. I have purchased numerous items made in Taiwan, Japan, the Phillipines, India, and South Korea without any remorse.
I will admit to purchasing things from Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, and Thailand; though I'm going to have to do more research on these countries before I truly feel comfortable doing so.
I know I can't completely shut out certain countries, as it is often impossible to determine where some parts are sourced, and sometimes there are no options left. I have found though that if you make an effort you can usually find other options or even do without.
If more people did this, fewer American manufacturers would be so inclined to move everything to China. There would be more jobs here and in nearby friendly places like Canada and Mexico. It would mean lesser threats around the globe as well.
Upset about atrocities in Sudan? Don't buy that Chinese made iPod that gave China enough money to ship the bullets to them. Worried about nuclear weapons in the hands of Iranian fanatics? Don't buy the High Def TV from China that sends more money and materials their way. Want to take the family fishing? Don't buy a new Chinese set-up; get an old American made Zebco at a garage sale or flea market. Keep it out of our landfills and take the money away from funding programs forcing unwilling Chinese women to get abortions. Worried about your child's health, don't buy poisonous toys from China. Other options might be a bit more expensive, but even that's not always the case. The good you'll do will be worth the effort and expense.

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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 04:39 PM
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Yes, I agree that China has it’s faults, knock off’s, protectionism, and lack of quality control. But so did we 50 years ago and that is approximately the state that China is in now. Their government took quick and decisive action against those responsible for the melamine laced milk. You have to give credit for trying. You can’t come out of the dark ages overnight. When I was a boy, I rewrapped the water pipes under the house and the oil heater exhaust pipe with asbestos every fall. I also always crimped the lead weights onto my fishing line with my teeth and started smoking. All because not only myself, but no one knew the dangers of these things. Live and learn, and that is what you have to give time for. I think that you are not very tolerant of others, and where did you most of your information from…Rush Limbaugh?
Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
Pegasus, there is a difference between manufacturing product through ignorance of the dangers compared to deliberately making dangerous products motivated strictly by greed. If you want to get into scripture battles, here's one for you that kinda describes making dairy products, pet food and toothpaste laced with melamine or making circuit breakers and fuses wired straight through:

"But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced their hearts with many pangs." (1 Timothy 6:7-10)

Scripture battles are pointless. For every piece of scripture you throw at me (or stone you cast in my direction) I can throw one back at you.


Last edited by charly; 06-04-2009 at 05:23 PM.
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 05:28 PM
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... and I'd have to add that protectionism (not buying stuff made elsewhere) is what caused the Depression in the '30s to become the "GREAT DEPRESSION"!
Ed
What caused Black Friday was the fact that almost everyone held stocks bought on margin. When the stock prices went down, they didn't have the money to pay the margin calls, and the economy collapsed like a house of cards. In 1929, we were pretty self sufficient as far as consumer goods went. True, we had the Smoot-Hawley tariffs, but they weren't the proximate cause of the depression. The demise of credit was far more of a factor. Too much paper chasing too few dollars.

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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 08:53 PM
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charly, hummmmmmmmm, is whats called a pissing contest?
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 09:20 PM
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Two quotes come in mind

1. Money makes the world go round.....
2. Money talks and Bullsh..t walks.......

Thats what Globalization is all about, my man....
There was a time where if something broke down, ripping it apart and putting it back together was a norm.
Now, most goods come like plug and play. If it doesn't work, get another. That's how the manufacturer keep us forking out the dough.($$$$) It's the same everywhere around the globe.

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-07-2009, 01:22 PM
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Buy Canadian whenever possible. We need the money to support all the illegal immigrants and tourists that come here for the free health care. Nuff said.

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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 12:19 PM
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Buy Canadian whenever possible. We need the money to support all the illegal immigrants and tourists that come here for the free health care. Nuff said.
That's kind of funny. My Canadian friends come across the river to get better quality medical care than their government is willing to give them.

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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 12:53 PM
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what an odd concept talking about supporting local manufacturing on a Versys forum.

history has shown that for developed countries to maintain their manufacturing they have to concentrate on high value added items. making clothing, no matter what design isn't going to cut it. high end clothing may stave off the decline, but its a deal not permanent salvation.

most of the British Motorcycle manufacturing disappeared through poor manufacture, poor quality control, poor design, poor management and so on. yet Triumph was relaunched as a new company and on the face of it is going from strength to strength.

The US motorcycle industry seems to have stayed in a rut producing bikes which are in a time warp, which seemingly sell purely on emotion not rationality. having recently ridden a Harley I'm amazed they are still able to find buyers.
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