Pilots Only Forum / The Perils of Petrol Miscalculation - Page 2 - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #21 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 02:13 PM
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I was a crew chief on F-111s for 8 years, and know nothing about civilian aviation, but what amazes me is that our 2-man fighter-bomber normally took off for a typical 2.5-3 hour sortie with 32-35,000 pounds of fuel (~4500 lbs. more with drop tanks), which is apparently more than a large airliner carries to cross an ocean. I guess that's what 2 engines capable of 25,000 pounds of thrust each plus AB does to your fuel mileage, eh?
Unfortunately my LAST trans-Atlantic flight was in '03 so I can't recall what fuel-load we'd have, BUT I'm pretty sure it was "WAY north of 35,000 pounds".

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...Way back in the day in the 1970's before flight training was as heavily regulated, instructors would routinely shut down the engine in the Cessna or Piper, not simulate the failure by pulling it back to idle....
THAT was NEVER allowed in the RCAF or Air Canada when I was there, as a "...shut down the engine..." is no longer a SIMULATED emergency!, but on 'licensing checks' in the simulator, the captain would ALWAYS have to show proficiency doing a 'single-engine' approach and landing - that would be ONE out of FOUR on the AE340 (which was my last aircraft flown), ONE of THREE on the L1011 and B727, all of which I flew.
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post #22 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 02:18 PM
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“So I flew in here to Phoenix from Flagstaff because my manager doesn't own a globe. He chartered one of those small private jets. I flew here on a plane this big, it was like a pack of gum with eight people in it.We were putzing along. We were going half the speed of *smell!* We got passed by a kite! There was a goose behind us and the pilot was yelling "Go around!" So about halfway through the trip, we start losing oil pressure in one of the engines, and the pilot says we have to turn around. It was a nine minute flight.Couldn't make it with that equipment. He came over the intercom and said "Hey, we're losing oil pressure in one of the engines," which I couldn't understand why he did, because he could have just turned around and said, "Hey, we're losing oil pressure." *"heard'ja"* Everyone else started freaking out, but I had been drinking since lunchtime, so I was like "Take it down! I don't care! Make sure y you hit something hard, 'cause I don't want to limp away from this!" The guy next to me is *losing his mind*. I guess he must have had something to "live for". He says, "Hey man, if one of the engines goes out, how far will the other one take us?" I look at him. "All the way to the scene of the crash! Which is pretty lucky, because that's where we're headed! I bet we beat the paramedics by a good half hour! We're haulin' ass!”
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post #23 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 03:00 PM
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THAT was NEVER allowed in the RCAF or Air Canada when I was there, as a "...shut down the engine..." is no longer a SIMULATED emergency!, but on 'licensing checks' in the simulator, the captain would ALWAYS have to show proficiency doing a 'single-engine' approach and landing [that would be ONE out of FOUR on the AE340 (which was my last aircraft flown), ONE of THREE on the L1011 and B727, all of which I flew].
The world of private pilot training was not very regulated back in the 1970's!

In the sim for the type rides we always get loads of single engine stuff. Of course it is just The Box, so nothing hurt but pride if we get the Red Screen of Death. My CRJ type ride was partially in the airplane and we only went to idle thrust not actually shut down one engine. This was a company check airman who was designated by the FAA to do our type rides. But my Brasilia type ride was totally in the airplane and administered by a Fed who insisted on shutting one down and feathering it. Then we flew around on one engine for a while, did a MCA demonstration , shot one instrument approach to missed then one to landing. All after midnight.
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post #24 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 08:11 PM
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Unfortunately my LAST trans-Atlantic flight was in '03 so I can't recall what fuel-load we'd have, BUT I'm pretty sure it was "WAY north of 35,000 pounds".



THAT was NEVER allowed in the RCAF or Air Canada when I was there, as a "...shut down the engine..." is no longer a SIMULATED emergency!, but on 'licensing checks' in the simulator, the captain would ALWAYS have to show proficiency doing a 'single-engine' approach and landing - that would be ONE out of FOUR on the AE340 (which was my last aircraft flown), ONE of THREE on the L1011 and B727, all of which I flew.
Oh, I was misunderstanding the post that I though said a 22,000 pound fuel load.

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post #25 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 10:25 PM
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"Then we flew around on one engine for a while, did a MCA demonstration , shot one instrument approach to missed then one to landing. All after midnight."

whuuuuuuuuutttttttttt???? I would have told him no, give me a floor and we will demonstrate those procedures at altitude. that is just a really bad idea to do "live" if you don't have to. I would have also contacted his superior just to ask what he thought of a single engine missed approach at night.... like... hey, you wanna come along for the next one of those?

if I'm answering your question I assume the basic points have been addressed, such as: did you do a compression test? is it still on fire?
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post #26 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-08-2019, 12:33 PM
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...whuuuuuuuuutttttttttt???? I would have told him no, give me a floor and we will demonstrate those procedures at altitude. that is just a really bad idea to do "live" if you don't have to. I would have also contacted his superior just to ask what he thought of a single engine missed approach at night.... like... hey, you wanna come along for the next one of those?
I agree w/ you Beezerboy!

Did my ATP licensing ride in a C-130.

When the inspector came onboard, I told him that anything he wanted done, just ask the co-pilot, and it would be done, but ONLY SIMULATED EMERGENCIES - throttle(s) to IDLE ONLY.

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post #27 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-08-2019, 02:37 PM Thread Starter
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I agree w/ you Beezerboy!

Did my ATP licensing ride in a C-130.

When the inspector came onboard, I told him that anything he wanted done, just ask the co-pilot, and it would be done, but ONLY SIMULATED EMERGENCIES - throttle(s) to IDLE ONLY.

I did my ATP ride in the E-120 Brasilia. Kinda like the Herky but with just 2 fans.
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post #28 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-08-2019, 03:08 PM
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I did my ATP ride in the E-120 Brasilia. Kinda like the Herky but with just 2 fans.
I spent 13 years in that thing. lol
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post #29 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-08-2019, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
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I spent 13 years in that thing. lol
13 years. You got me beat by 2 years.

I racked up a total of about 8700 hours and have left ear hearing damage to prove it...Lol.

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post #30 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 04:15 AM
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yep, and single engine on idle, on a gas recip to me is 1500 at the least, no lower than that until the runway is made. think like that and it may save your life some day. just remember that "they" are all trying to kill you

if I'm answering your question I assume the basic points have been addressed, such as: did you do a compression test? is it still on fire?
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post #31 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 07:21 AM
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13 years. You got me beat by 2 years.

I racked up a total of about 8700 hours and have left ear hearing damage to prove it...Lol.
I flew it for a corporation so I only have about 4700 hours in it. I came out of a dash8-300 so I was not a big fan of the 120 at first. But I have to admit it grew on me I enjoyed flying the plane. I remember first day of ground school watching the video of the prop over speed and wondering what did I get myself into.lol
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post #32 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 08:57 AM Thread Starter
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I flew it for a corporation so I only have about 4700 hours in it. I came out of a dash8-300 so I was not a big fan of the 120 at first. But I have to admit it grew on me I enjoyed flying the plane. I remember first day of ground school watching the video of the prop over speed and wondering what did I get myself into.lol
I flew for Westair for 12 years and we got some of the very first Brasilia's from Embraer. I do remember the days of the prop overspeed. It put the fear of God in all us E-120 pilots.

Coming out the the Bandit E-110, the Brasilia was quite an upgrade.

The only regret was wishing they would have put counter rotating props on it cuz it was a rudder trim monster. Change power 1%...trim the ball. Change pitch 1 degree...trim the ball. Sneeze, fart, or belch...trim the ball...Lol.

I think I still have a bigger right wrist from all the twisting on the rudder trim knob.

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post #33 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 09:57 AM
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If it's germane...
I flew airforce Dehaviland Chipmunks, Canadair Tutor jet trainers, Lockheed T-33 Silver Stars, Lockheed C-130Es (about 3,000 hrs total among them), then Air Canada - flew DC8, B727, DC9, L1011, B767, AE320, AE319, AE340, and AE330 (about 20,000 hrs among them!).

Flying beat 'working for a living', and was one helluva LOT SAFER than robbing a bank...!


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post #34 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 10:59 AM
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I was getting a simulator ride in a 727 sim, way back when I was a 727 first officer (after being trained in Boeing Seattle as a 727 second officer [sort of a flight engineer], and then being an instructor for four or five years). W/ my Hercules 'time' I had more experience than the captain had, and at the end of the sim-ride the check-pilot asked if I wanted to do anything else, as we had about 15 minutes left, so I said "set me up at 3,000', 10 or 15 miles back, 250 Knots, fail ALL THREE (w/out needing to complete the checklists) and see IF I can make the runway. My plan was to stay as 'hot' as I could till CERTAIN I'd "make the runway", then flaps and 'gear, still HIGH and 'hot', then use speed-brakes to ensure the runway.

The 727 had a prohibition against speedbrakes and flaps at the same time, because of the number of 727s that got into a high-sink rate and crashed when it was new, w/ pilots experienced on prop-jobs like the DC6, not realizing how long it takes to get jet engines "spooled-up" from idle. During my Seattle course my Boeing instructor had shown me that the 727 had been CERTIFIED TO USE FLAPS AND SPEEDBRAKES at the same time, but that the prohibition had been the EASIEST way to 'remove the high sink-rate problem'.

When I selected the speedbrakes the captain hollered "NO - that's prohibited!" but I kept my hand on the lever - while the check-pilot said "It's OK - let Ed try it...!" We continued to a non-eventful landing, and then the captain asked "Can I do the same approach, but I won't break the rules?"

So a button was pushed and MAGICALLY we were at 3,000', 10 or 15 miles back, 250 Knots, ALL THREE failed [SAME everything as what I'd just had], and the captain continued, NOT doing what I'd just demonstrated WORKED, and we 'crashed' a few miles short of the runway.

We had a very interesting debriefing....

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post #35 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 01:58 PM
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I was getting a simulator ride in a 727 sim, way back when I was a 727 first officer (after being trained in Boeing Seattle as a 727 second officer [sort of a flight engineer], and then being an instructor for four or five years). W/ my Hercules 'time' I had more experience than the captain had, and at the end of the sim-ride the check-pilot asked if I wanted to do anything else, as we had about 15 minutes left, so I said "set me up at 3,000', 10 or 15 miles back, 250 Knots, fail ALL THREE (w/out needing to complete the checklists) and see IF I can make the runway. My plan was to stay as 'hot' as I could till CERTAIN I'd "make the runway", then flaps and 'gear, still HIGH and 'hot', then use speed-brakes to ensure the runway.

The 727 had a prohibition against speedbrakes and flaps at the same time, because of the number of 727s that got into a high-sink rate and crashed when it was new, w/ pilots experienced on prop-jobs like the DC6, not realizing how long it takes to get jet engines "spooled-up" from idle. During my Seattle course my Boeing instructor had shown me that the 727 had been CERTIFIED TO USE FLAPS AND SPEEDBRAKES at the same time, but that the prohibition had been the EASIEST way to 'remove the high sink-rate problem'.

When I selected the speedbrakes the captain hollered "NO - that's prohibited!" but I kept my hand on the lever - while the check-pilot said "It's OK - let Ed try it...!" We continued to a non-eventful landing, and then the captain asked "Can I do the same approach, but I won't break the rules?"

So a button was pushed and MAGICALLY we were at 3,000', 10 or 15 miles back, 250 Knots, ALL THREE failed [SAME everything as what I'd just had], and the captain continued, NOT doing what I'd just demonstrated WORKED, and we 'crashed' a few miles short of the runway.

We had a very interesting debriefing....

I don't get some people . He lost 3 engine's and the guy is worried about breaking rules. If both you and him had a plane parked on the ramp I know who's airplane I would get in. "captain may I catch a ride with you" lol
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post #36 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 06:27 PM
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I don't get some people . He lost 3 engine's and the guy is worried about breaking rules. If both you and him had a plane parked on the ramp I know who's airplane I would get in. "captain may I catch a ride with you" lol
Let me qualify my comments first by saying that Captain had just seen a successful breach of the rules, so the rest doesn't really apply to him. But...

Some humans are rigid with rules. The rule is the rule is the rule. While I can't speak publicly on a forum like this too specifically, I am aware of a number of incidents directly related to pilots adhering to rules until they've dug themselves so deep a hole they can't get out. Now the opposite end of the spectrum is the cowboy. I've flown with some of them and they did scare me! All are retired by now, and besides I'm the one with 4 stripes in my cockpit.

I think the bigger problem these days is dependence on the automation. Funny, back in the day before we had GPS onboard, everything was Green Needles raw data navigation. We'd manually tune the VORs and dial in the correct radial. The jet had FMS but no GPS. RNAV was white needles, but everybody was nervous about those white needles. Heck, the FAA prohibited us from RNAV direct for at least a year when we got FMS with GPS! We still flew NDB approaches into mountain airports. But now the tide has changed. New guys coming up having learned in glass cockpit Cessnas. They're really sharp with software, but put them in Green Needles and they're sweating bullets! They even ask if we're allowed to go Green!

Industry wide the emphasis is now on hand flying, turning off the fancy electronics, and being a pilot again.

The first thing this new generation wants to do when things get complicated is text a message to Dispatch or Maintenance. They're so inculcated with finding consensus and being in constant communication that they don't realize (believe?) we are aviators capable of and authorized to deal with problems ourselves.
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post #37 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 06:52 PM
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I flew for Westair for 12 years and we got some of the very first Brasilia's from Embraer. I do remember the days of the prop overspeed. It put the fear of God in all us E-120 pilots.

Coming out the the Bandit E-110, the Brasilia was quite an upgrade.

The only regret was wishing they would have put counter rotating props on it cuz it was a rudder trim monster. Change power 1%...trim the ball. Change pitch 1 degree...trim the ball. Sneeze, fart, or belch...trim the ball...Lol.

I think I still have a bigger right wrist from all the twisting on the rudder trim knob.
what years were you at westair? Do you remember Rich Kline?
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post #38 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 08:36 PM
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I flew for Westair for 12 years and we got some of the very first Brasilia's from Embraer. I do remember the days of the prop overspeed. It put the fear of God in all us E-120 pilots.

Coming out the the Bandit E-110, the Brasilia was quite an upgrade.

The only regret was wishing they would have put counter rotating props on it cuz it was a rudder trim monster. Change power 1%...trim the ball. Change pitch 1 degree...trim the ball. Sneeze, fart, or belch...trim the ball...Lol.

I think I still have a bigger right wrist from all the twisting on the rudder trim knob.
My initial sim instructor showed us prop overspeeds at altitude and props that didn't feather during a V1 cut. Both lessons stuck with me. Flamed one out in a windshear and the prop didn't feather, but knew we weren't going to die thanks to the sim instruction, and lived to tell the tale. But when the prop oversped in descent, yeah that got my attention seriously fast! We got it back under control and landed at the nearest airport, with pulse rate 200+.

I loved the Bro but am glad not to fly it any more.

Did you ever try the trick of just adjusting the left power lever? Nearly zero rudder trim required.

When I went to the CRJ, I kept reaching for both the rudder trim and the elevator trim wheel for a very long time. Old habits!
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post #39 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 10:38 PM Thread Starter
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what years were you at westair? Do you remember Rich Kline?
Was there from 1986 til they folded in 1998.

Then did the private/corporate jet thing for another 20 years.

Yep I remember Rich.

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post #40 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 10:41 PM Thread Starter
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Did you ever try the trick of just adjusting the left power lever? Nearly zero rudder trim required.

When I went to the CRJ, I kept reaching for both the rudder trim and the elevator trim wheel for a very long time. Old habits!
Did not know about tweaking the left power lever trick.

I too reached for the trim wheel and rudder knob for a while in the next bird I flew.

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