Water Wetter vs. Engine Ice vs. Regular Coolant (The Green Stuff) - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 05-14-2010, 09:45 PM Thread Starter
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Water Wetter vs. Engine Ice vs. Regular Coolant (The Green Stuff)

I am currently about to flush my coolant system and have been tossing around the idea of replacing with water wetter premix. My question is, has anyone out there in the V world tried the water wetter or engine ice coolant brands. If so, did you notice any improvement in performance, etc.... (I know the V doesn't have a temp gauge so you really can't tell if the temp drops).
I've read a little on each manufacturers website and they each claim to drop temps, increase mileage blah, blah.... but of course they're gonna say that their product works wonders. I want to know, from real world experience, if anyone can attest to the abilities of one or both of these products.

I know water wetter is popular amongst the road racing community as it has been one of the only approved coolants that you can run in AMA and other racing organizations. I also believe that engine ice just recently gained approval by AMA but haven't really heard from any of the local racers using it.

Worst case, I'll just stick with the regular old ethylene glycol.

Thanks to all who respond ahead of time.

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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 05-14-2010, 10:52 PM
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As you said, Water Wetter is popular on racebikes because it's easier to clean up than ethylene-glycol. I used it on water cooled race bikes but I am not sure it has the advantages they advertise. It may run a bit cooler (my gauges weren't that accurate, just the stock coolant temp gauge), but it wasn't the 30 degrees they claim. I hardly ever hear the fan come on on the Versys. Unless you live in a very hot climate, I can't see this being a real advantage.


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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 05-14-2010, 11:07 PM
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the manual says a coolant change every 3 years, i presume thats okay
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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 05-14-2010, 11:25 PM
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Engine Ice works

I have to say, I use engine Ice in all my off road bikes after having problems with my son KTM 105 running hot I put in Engine Ice and never had a problem again and was sold on it. We race cross country (races last 2-3 hours) and at the time my son's 105 motor had a lot of work done to it, the thing would keep up with 125's going up hill. We get triple digit temps hear and I might put in my V if I have any heat related problems. Be nice to here what others have to say on this topic.

Donn
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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 05-15-2010, 10:36 PM
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I replaced the coolant with Engine Ice at the time of my first oil change, 400 miles. I had used it in my previous bike, a KLX250S that had been bored, head work, pipe etc. and was used for street riding. Never had a problem with the smaller bike, and it got a workout holding 65-70 mph on road trips. I figured it was cheap insurance, so I put it in the Versys too.
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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 05-16-2010, 01:52 AM
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Water wetter

I'm certainly no expert but I don't think there is any real advantage to products like water wetter other than the fact that you don't have a huge hard to clean slippery mess if you crash on a track. I think their claim is it can "reduce coolant temp up to 20 degrees". I'm thinking they are comparing to plain water here as the "coolant" not a mix of ethelyne glycol and water. There are any number of ways to increase heat transfer of liquids. You can add salt to water to make it boil at a higher temp too (not a good idea in a motor though).


I'm pretty sure you actually don't want to have your engine run too cool. From my understanding of engines, the hotter it runs the more effecient it is to a point where you start to loose lubrication or clearances become too tight. I think this is why there are a lot of ceramics being developed for use in engines. Also noticed that thermostats have risen in temp since the good old days. Engines that run hotter are more effecient (to a point) so they can get better mileage and/or power. You still want the coolest intake temps possible though.

Interesting topic. I'm sure this will be like one of the "best oil" threads (I use Mobil MX4T by the way).

Main problem I have with Watter Wetter, Engine Ice etc are the names they come up with. Reminds me of Marvel Mystery Oil and I can't help but laugh every time I see it. Probably great stuff but makes me visualize some dude riding into town trying to sell you some cure all back in the old west. Royal Purple makes me think of Prince on his goofy Vetter fairinged bike in Purple Rain. That one makes me laugh too.
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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 05-16-2010, 03:57 AM
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Engine Ice or water wetter takes the place of antifreeze on a race bike because if you crash it does not leave a slippery spot on the track like antifreeze does. That is the only advantage over antifreeze. Antifreeze does everything water wetter does plus it keeps the coolent from freezing and cracking your engine block. For a street bike use regular antifreeze mixed with distilled water 50/50 or premix. Regular tap water contains minerals that can adhere to the coolant passages. Antifreeze and water wetter helps lubricate the water pump and transfers heat better than strait water. Additives in anti freeze also help prevent corrosion which I'm not sure water wetter does.
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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 05-16-2010, 04:23 PM
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Engine Ice info at the following link website.

http://www.engineice.cc/faq.html
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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 05-18-2010, 08:54 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks to all for your response. I went to the moto-shop today and purchased some engine ice coolant. I filled the Versys' coolant system with it less than an hour ago. I figured it would be worth a shot and its not a heck of a lot more $ than the good old ethylene glycol (ok so it is, but oh well, its for my V)
I thought about using water wetter, but knowing how I am, I would forget to replace it come winter time and that would spell trouble. I couldn't pass up the fact that engine ice offers/advertises relatively the same performance gains as water wetter, yet protects to 20+ below zero.

I'm going on a two day ride through Arkansas and Missouri this weekend so I'll have to post back if I see any noticeable changes in performance, although I don't anticipate being able to notice anything through feel or the seat of my pants.

Cheers.

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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 07:45 PM
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everything ok man,did the engine blow or smth?

i just have to add by this post that i changed my ethylene glycol in 2 years than the recommended 3 because lately i heard some strange noises of fluid flow when i switched off the engine after one-two hours of fast riding.
the result is that the noise dissapeared and the explanation is that the old fluid had lost its characteristics because of the repeated heat-cold cycles in this period of time,water evaporates faster than glycol in high temperatures so the concentration of the fluid changes through time even if you have a very small-unnoticed daily evaporation.the climate here is pretty hot all year and i use the bike daily.
the paraflu as we call it is cheap and replacing it once a year is an easy procedure.i believe kawasaki should have shorten the period of 3 years to 2 in the manual.

Last edited by naz; 06-05-2010 at 06:04 AM.
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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaryfast777 View Post

I'm going on a two day ride through Arkansas and Missouri this weekend so I'll have to post back if I see any noticeable changes in performance, although I don't anticipate being able to notice anything through feel or the seat of my pants.

Cheers.
Wish I'd known you were coming thru Missouri this past weekend, would of been nice to meet/see another V rider!


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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry for the delayed update. The trip went excellent! We hit some awesome roads in OK, MO, and AR. I can't verify that the engine temps dropped with engine ice, but I can say that the versys rocked the entire trip. I took the trip with my father-in-law who's an old school racer. He's on a BMW 1200 rs and I was surprised at how well I kept up with him in the twisties even though he's got almost double the displacement. He could easily leave me on the straights if he wanted to, and I quickly found out that a larger fairing would definitely make 100+ mph riding a little more comfy...I know the versys isn't made to roll at the high speeds a true sport bike will, but I'll have to say I finally got to stretch the versys's legs a bit and it is way more capable than I had previously thought. In all we covered ~750 miles in two days with no issues...even with 90+ degree temps.

Final thoughts: Engine Ice...why not?

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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 10:28 PM
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Engine ice is simply a propylene glycol coolant which is outperformed by ethylene glycol in terms of thermal conductivity, as depicted in their site (0.34/0.38 W/m-K @ 90C coolant temp): http://www.engineice.cc/faq.html
Compared to ethylene glycol, propylene glycol does require less flow increase to achieve the same heat transfer as pure water. http://www.crownsolutions.com/lib/cr...ZC8Vupyuud.pdf

How much did you pay for the Engine Ice? Amsoil's propylene glycol 7 year/250000 mile coolant also contains proprietary poly organic acid technology. $33.75 MSRP per US gallon. $25.33 + shipping/taxes with promo code from: http://www.woodsbrosracing.com/amsoil/ant.htm I've used it in my car so far and it works well too.

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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 11:34 PM Thread Starter
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Invader, thats a good point about Amsoil's coolant. I actually tried to find some of the stuff around here but had no luck. I'm a huge fan of Amsoil's products. I've always ran their oil in all of my bikes and it truly is good stuff.

I think I paid about $18-$19 for the engine ice at the local cycle gear here in Tulsa, OK. If they would have had Amsoil coolant at the shop I get Amsoil synthetic from, I probably would have bought that without as much as a second thought.

I'll have to say that the people at engine ice did a pretty good job exceeding the heat capacity of a 50% EG/Water solution. As mentioned in Invader's post, the thermal conductivity of the 50% EG/Water mix is 4 hundredths higher (.38 vs .34 respectively) than that of engine ice, but the viscosity (resistance to shear) is slightly higher in engine ice which would in turn explain the higher specific heat (calculated heat capacity) of Engine Ice to be 119 [J/kg-K] higher than that of the mix. I would hypothesize that the only reason you see a slight increase in the specific heat of engine ice is due directly to the fact that a higher viscosity fluid will resist shear, as well as cavitation, and hence, be moved more effectively by the pump than a lower viscosity mixture. This would explain why people on other forums who have temp gauges say that during a dead stop, engine temps with engine ice are pretty much the same as if they had a 50/50 EG/water blend, but, that when they are moving, they notice decreased temps at the same relative speeds when compared to 50/50 (more air flow across radiator, higher pump pressures=increased flow=lower temps).
I will say that the numbers provided by engine ice as a comparison are minuscule and don't provide any direct reason for being at your dealer's doorstep 30 minutes before they open in the morning so that you can get some, but the fact that it is non-toxic is cool, and really seems to be the underlying marketing tool they use after getting you reeled in by their profession of "lowered engine temps"...plus the fact that its not a slippery mess like ethylene glycol.
I would really like to see how Engine Ice arrived at their numbers (i.e. tests performed, conditions, equipment used). The science of Heat Transfer is a beast in and of itself, and there are many factors at play in a liquid cooled engine. You have not only forced convection through the radiator, but conduction to the fluid in the block itself, and they all vary over time, giving you a great differential equations problem

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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 11:39 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy49 View Post
Wish I'd known you were coming thru Missouri this past weekend, would of been nice to meet/see another V rider!
Where abouts in MO are you from Randy49? We came up through Andersonville (I think...may have been Anderson... in the SE Corner of the state), then hit Branson, and stayed in Eureka Springs, AR the first night. There are some killer roads around there. I'd always ridden in a car on them as a kid going to Branson on family trips, but I finally got to really experience them for the first time...on a bike!!

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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by invader View Post
Engine ice is simply a propylene glycol coolant which is outperformed by ethylene glycol in terms of thermal conductivity, as depicted in their site (0.34/0.38 W/m-K @ 90C coolant temp): http://www.engineice.cc/faq.html
Compared to ethylene glycol, propylene gycol does require less flow increase to achieve the same heat transfer as pure water. http://www.crownsolutions.com/lib/cr...ZC8Vupyuud.pdf

How much did you pay for the Engine Ice? Amsoil's propylene glycol 7 year/250000 mile coolant also contains proprietary poly organic acid technology. $33.75 MSRP per US gallon. $25.33 + shipping/taxes with promo code from: http://www.woodsbrosracing.com/amsoil/ant.htm I've used it in my car so far and it works well too.
Invader.

Many thanks for a very informative post/link on Heat transfer.
will be much use for work and thanks again.

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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-05-2010, 12:31 AM
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I didn't look into the Engine Ice website info, so can you tell me if it contains any corrosion inhibitors? Fluid circulating through dissimilar metals induces corrosion, though normal anti-freeze protects against that. Water Wetter does not. Just a thought.
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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-05-2010, 06:14 AM
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According to Engine Ice:

"Is it safe for aluminum?
Yes, Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant is safe for aluminum and most all metals."

"Sometimes I see "particles" floating in my bottle of Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant, why is that?
That is the anti-foam and anti-corrosion properties and is a normal occurrence in our proprietary blending process. Once in the engine, it dissolves and does its job of protecting your engine."

"Is Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant silicate and phosphate free?
Yes, Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant is both silicate and phosphate free."

If there are no silicates or phosphates, the corrosion-inhibiting chemical is probably OAT (organic acid tech). Phosphates cause water hardness elements, calcium and magnesium, to precipitate out in solid form. Both silicates and phosphates protect metals very well, with silicates being especially good for aluminum. However, silicates (in green ethylene glycol) don't last a long time, and can be hard on water pump seals.

That's only 1/2 gallon (64 oz) of pre-mixed Engine Ice for $20 to $22. Liquid Performance's Racing Coolant is very similar at $16 to $17 per half gallon (64 oz) bottle: http://www.liquidperformance.com/pro...ingcoolant.htm

Check out: Evans Waterless Coolant
Evans NPG-R 'Race Fluid'

Last edited by invader; 06-05-2010 at 06:31 AM.
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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-05-2010, 06:17 AM
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i like evans product.its boiling point is 375 f meaning 190.5 celsius! very high indeed compared to 50-50 ethylene glycol that has only 105-115 celsius.i will have to find this product available here,thats the hard part
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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-05-2010, 06:28 AM
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Besides all over USA ($39.95 per gallon) and Canada, Evans dealers are in Athens Greece, Madrid Spain, Charterhouse London, Monterado Italy, Jin An District Shanghai, and Victoria Australia.

http://www.evanscooling.com/dealers/
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