Need help, high idling speed.... - Kawasaki Versys Forum
 
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 04:13 AM Thread Starter
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Need help, high idling speed....

Would appreciate help from all.
First,let me tell you what i have installed succesfully on my 2012 versys.
BMC air filter,two brothers cf can and an o2 sensor eliminator. All is running fine without any issues since i bought the bike in january..
Today, i have spent few hours doing this..
1] pair valve removed [4 rubber stopper installed]
2] paired the vacuum hose for the map sensor [equal length]
3] changed new plugs [iridium]
4] cleaned the air filter

Initial start up was perfect,cold start valve functioning as normal,so far so good.
But now,once it warmed up,idle stays at 1300rpm.. previously 900rpm.
And to make it worse,its not even resting at the idling screw.. meaning to say, i can only bring the rpm higher,not lower!! Where did i go wrong?
Please help....
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 05:38 AM
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First of all, you idle has to be set at 1300 rpm, and not at 900 rpm.

"paired the vacuum hose for the map sensor [equal length]" ?

Leave the IAP sensor hose alone on its outer left fitting. Use a simple 6" (15 cm) long, 1/8" (3 mm) ID vacuum hose on the TB vacuum fittings:



Make sure you have no vacuum leaks at hose fittings, and all that you removed for service is properly reinstalled and tightened.
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 05:54 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by invader View Post
First of all, you idle has to be set at 1300 rpm, and not at 900 rpm.

"paired the vacuum hose for the map sensor [equal length]" ?

Leave the IAP sensor hose alone on its outer left fitting. Use a simple 6" (15 cm) long, 1/8" (3 mm) ID vacuum hose on the TB vacuum fittings:



Make sure you have no vacuum leaks at hose fittings, and all that you removed for service is properly reinstalled and tightened.
I am quite sure you will be the first one to reply, THANK YOU SIFU....
1300rpm? I have never adjusted the idle speed since new,all the while it was like that..On the vacuum port that you use,im currently using it for my scottoiler.
So what i did, i paired the left and right vacuum hose and 'tee-it' to my map sensor. Im quite sure there was no leak,but i may need to re-check!
If i were to follow your set-up, can you recommend where should i 'tee-it' for my scottoiler? Thanks a lot.
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 06:03 AM
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Let's call the left vacuum fitting #1, middle fitting #2, and the right fitting (as seen in my photo) #3.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 06:25 AM
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Leave the IAP sensor hose on its original fitting #1 not T'd to anything.
With a 15 cm, 3 mm ID vacuum hose cut in half on fittings #2 and #3, use one T for Scottoiler.
Check and adjust Scottoiler oil feed which may now be faster.

There is no MAP sensor. IAP (inlet air pressure) sensor reads inlet negative air pressure (vacuum).


Last edited by invader; 08-26-2012 at 06:41 AM.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 06:50 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
Leave the IAP sensor hose on its original fitting #1 not T'd to anything.
With a 15 cm, 3 mm ID vacuum hose cut in half on fittings #2 and #3, use one T for Scottoiler.
Check and adjust Scottoiler oil feed which may now be faster.

There is no MAP sensor. IAP (inlet air pressure) sensor reads inlet negative air pressure (vacuum).

Got it, thank you very very much....
Thanks for correcting me on the iap sensor.
Will try this tomorrow and update you on this.
Is this the reason why the idling speed is higher and can't be slowed down?

Last edited by doowutchyalike; 08-26-2012 at 07:04 AM.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 07:27 AM
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Yes. The IAP sensor hose must be left alone on its specific left TB's outer fitting which has a larger ID. T'ing it screws up the sensor reading which affects low speed and idle quality.
It will run much better now. Then we'll look into adjusting your main throttle sensor by rotating it counterclockwise by about 1 mm to richen up your lean idle and fix the lean stumble near 2800 rpm.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 07:33 AM
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D-J Method and α - N Method:

When the engine load is light like at idling or low speed, the ECU determines the injection quantity by calculating from the throttle vacuum (inlet air pressure sensor output voltage) and engine speed (crankshaft sensor output voltage). This method is called D-J method (low-speed mode). As the engine speed increases, and the engine load turns middle to heavy, the ECU determines the injection quantity by calculating from the throttle opening (throttle sensor output voltage) and the engine speed. This method is called α - N method (high-speed mode).
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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D-J Method and α - N Method:

When the engine load is light like at idling or low speed, the ECU determines the injection quantity by calculating from the throttle vacuum (inlet air pressure sensor output voltage) and engine speed (crankshaft sensor output voltage). This method is called D-J method (low-speed mode). As the engine speed increases, and the engine load turns middle to heavy, the ECU determines the injection quantity by calculating from the throttle opening (throttle sensor output voltage) and the engine speed. This method is called α - N method (high-speed mode).
It's now 10.15pm in Malaysia,can't wait for tomorrow,so I decided to do as you recommended on the vacuum hose today itself and set the tps tomorrow.

Did everything as you ask me too, no avail... It's still idle high, and the throttle cable is still not touching the idling screw! It's hovering at 1200-1300rpm..
What next?
1 more thing, how do I post pictures here? Maybe I post some pictures once I know how for you to see better...

Last edited by doowutchyalike; 08-26-2012 at 10:14 AM.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 11:56 AM
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Isn't the Versys supposed to idle @ 1300RPM?
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 09:47 PM
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Yes, idle must be set to 1300 rpm... Something is preventing him from having a solid setting for the throttle stop to sit positively onto. Although it should not be at 900 rpm as it was, his idle is now up to 1200~1300 at lowest setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doowutchyalike View Post
... the throttle cable is still not touching the idling screw! It's hovering at 1200-1300rpm..
What next?
Check your throttle cables routing. Make sure the throttle cable ends are properly seated in place in their sockets at the brackets over the throttle bodies and in cable slack adjusters, etc. Then make sure your throttle cable slack is well adjusted so that they don't fall out of position again, and that your throttle is operating smoothly.

Last edited by invader; 08-26-2012 at 10:55 PM.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 09:50 PM
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According to service manual:

"Throttle Grip Free Play: 2-3 mm
If the throttle grip doesn’t return properly, check the throttle cable routing, grip free play, and cable damage. Then lubricate the throttle cable.
To adjust, loosen the locknut at the upper end of the accelerator cable. (under throttle grip) Turn the adjuster in completely so as to give the throttle grip plenty of play. Loosen the locknut at the middle of the decelerator cable. (see pic) Turn the adjuster until there is no play when the throttle grip is completely closed. Tighten the locknut. Turn the accelerator cable adjuster until the proper amount of throttle grip free play is obtained. Tighten the locknut."

You can easily pull the mid-cable adjuster that runs over the engine, adjust it then check with cable back up in its natural position. Shown here with locknut loosened and backed up to the right:

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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
Yes, idle must be set to 1300 rpm... Something is preventing him from having a solid setting for the throttle stop to sit positively onto. Although it should not be at 900 rpm as it was, his idle is now up to 1200~1300 at lowest setting.



Check your throttle cables routing. Make sure the throttle cable ends are properly seated in place in their sockets at the brackets over the throttle bodies and in cable slack adjusters, etc. Then make sure your throttle cable slack is well adjusted so that they don't fall out of position again, and that your throttle is operating smoothly.
He might have messed with idle screw setting. Since bike is at 1300rpm why not set the screw to touch and hold idle at that position. He might have slacked a bit too much down since his was idling at 900rpm.-IMHO
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 03:00 AM
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He might have messed with idle screw setting. Since bike is at 1300rpm why not set the screw to touch and hold idle at that position. He might have slacked a bit too much down since his was idling at 900rpm.-IMHO
No. Something is preventing his throttle to shut completely and positively on the idle screw.

Another possibility, if the throttle cables are adjusted in proper position; Did you leave a rag or tool in a throttle body, or is something obstructing the throttle cam?
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 05:24 AM Thread Starter
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No. Something is preventing his throttle to shut completely and positively on the idle screw.

Another possibility, if the throttle cables are adjusted in proper position; Did you leave a rag or tool in a throttle body, or is something obstructing the throttle cam?
Thank you invader for clearing that up. Never adjusted the idling screw and the cables since i bought it,brand new. I have check on the possibility of that cause i put a piece of paper covering each inlet... Both were accounted for when i reinstall everything back up. I did reopen to check!
Its like you said,something is preventing it from closing properly,but no idea what? Just for your info,i ride my bike to the office today, a good 50++ km away. Bike was good. All the improvement you said was noticeable, except now, a loud "bang" when i close the throttle and the bike sounded like a helicopter hovering above me when im stuck in the jam in between cars. The two brothers can is annoying at 1300rpm... Last time it use to stutter like a misfire but no loud "bang". Is it running richer at close throttle?!
You said something about preventing it to shut completely, which area should i look for if it's not the cables?
I will be out now removing both throttle cables to see if this is the culprit, if not, i have eliminated 1 possibility. Will update....

Last edited by doowutchyalike; 08-27-2012 at 05:28 AM.
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 05:48 AM Thread Starter
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Both cables removed, still not touching the idle screw....

Last edited by doowutchyalike; 08-27-2012 at 06:33 AM.
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 06:29 AM Thread Starter
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Ok,everything is taken off again.......
side covers,tank,filter box... i have check and re check.... im still lost at what to check next.. The temptation is now to pull out the whole unit...can do that since im already here.. no intention of using the bike some more until this is resolved! But to check what?
Is there any link between the pair valve rod and the throttle?
Any adjustments to play with to adjust throttle closure and opening?

Last edited by doowutchyalike; 08-27-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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Done, rectified!!
Thank you all for helping me out on this matter,especially Invader.
I know it was not the things i took out cause everyone is sure about that,thanks for pointing me the right way ! After removing the cable and still having the same problem,I was about to pull out the whole injection unit until i actually found the culprit!
A small piece of metal got stuck between the butterfly on the right hand side, it seems exactly like a the one you will have on a cross treaded screw,very small piece,not sure where it came from, but it left a mark on the intake wall.. thank god once i removed it,the mark was just on top of the butterfly when in close position,so no leak!!
Fix everything back up, and the bike now idle at 900rpm again and the throttle resting on the idler screw.
One thing i just found out after receiving information from all that the bike should idle at 1300rpm instead of 900rpm,that is actually around a quarter turn before the lowest idle you can set,just a bit below 900. I can not bring it any lower. Is this right? Shouldn't it be that i can adjust it lower until the engine stalls??

And again,thanks invader for informing earlier about the scottoiler adjustment...
I'll be needing some guidance on the next step,to adjust the throttle position sensor. How do i go about it?
Again,THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND KNOWLEDGE IN HELPING ME OUT.....ALL OF YOU!

Last edited by doowutchyalike; 08-27-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 04:48 PM
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I never tried backing off the idle adjustment to see if it can stall, but I don't think it could... At any rate, just adjust it to 1300 rpm nomal idle.

Try it out like that with the vacuum hose setup, etc, and get used to how it's running now with the new mods. Let me know how she runs now that it's fixed and if it still backfires (BANG!) with the exhaust, even if you already sealed off the PAIR valve. Then I'll tell you how to adjust your main throttle sensor. It will add just enough fuel at low throttle opening to stop backfiring and to cure the lean stumble, especially near 2800 rpm.

Last edited by invader; 08-27-2012 at 05:32 PM.
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