Pair Valve Mod is Almost POINTLESS!!! - Kawasaki Versys Forum
 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-25-2011, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Pair Valve Mod is Almost POINTLESS!!!

ok, I have noticed lots of people think the pair valve mod is awesome. well i have some facts for you. If you block it off it off it does not help you at all besides getting rid of some popping out of the exhaust. DO NOT LET PEOPLE make you think it will actually help you. I have over 50 dyno pulls and found some interesting facts.

1) The auto tune unit comes with an afr map set up for a bike with the pair valve installed.
2) Blocking it off doesn't help on the dyno
3) It actually lowers the exhaust temp, by not having the clean air help burn the unspent fuel
4) YOU CAN GET RID OF THE POPPING WITH GOOD TUNING!!!
5) Because of #3 it will hurt your torque to some degree Higher exhaust temp increases the speed of the exhaust which helps increase torque

I just dont want you people wasting money on so kit that does nothing.

have a good day
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-25-2011, 04:18 PM
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Interesting input, and I don't question your findings. I'd like to here more about #4 and how you would define "good tuning".

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Last edited by zgfiredude; 05-25-2011 at 10:54 PM. Reason: meant to say #4
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-25-2011, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by skizzo81 View Post
ok, I have noticed lots of people think the pair valve mod is awesome. well i have some facts for you. If you block it off it off it does not help you at all besides getting rid of some popping out of the exhaust. DO NOT LET PEOPLE make you think it will actually help you. I have over 50 dyno pulls and found some interesting facts.

1) The auto tune unit comes with an afr map set up for a bike with the pair valve installed.
2) Blocking it off doesn't help on the dyno
3) It actually lowers the exhaust temp, by not having the clean air help burn the unspent fuel
4) YOU CAN GET RID OF THE POPPING WITH GOOD TUNING!!!
5) Because of #3 it will hurt your torque to some degree Higher exhaust temp increases the speed of the exhaust which helps increase torque

I just dont want you people wasting money on so kit that does nothing.

have a good day
The Autotune installation instructions require that the PAIR system has to be disabled. Again, it's because if it's left connected, the O2 sensor will see a leaner A/F ratio than actually exists.

THERE IS NO MAP IN THE AUTOTUNE UNIT! THE ONLY MAP IN THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS THE ONE YOU LOAD INTO THE MAIN PC-V UNIT, AND IT'S THE SAME ONE WHETHER OR NOT YOU USE AN AUTOTUNE OR HAVE THE PAIR SYSTEM DISABLED!

The PAIR system exists SOLELY as part of the catalytic converter system. When the converter is removed, there is absolutely NO reason to have it anymore. It has NO effect upon performance. Leaving it connected causes popping in the exhaust, much the same way a loose header pipe does.

If this is what your "mechanic/tuner" has been telling you, you need to find another one, because he doesn't know s**t about electronic engine control systems.

I've been running a PC-V/Autotune unit for two years, and set it up myself. That means I KNOW what's involved in installation and setup/programming. I also work with the EEC systems in Ducatis.

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-25-2011, 10:42 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
The Autotune installation instructions require that the PAIR system has to be disabled. Again, it's because if it's left connected, the O2 sensor will see a leaner A/F ratio than actually exists.

THERE IS NO MAP IN THE AUTOTUNE UNIT! THE ONLY MAP IN THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS THE ONE YOU LOAD INTO THE MAIN PC-V UNIT, AND IT'S THE SAME ONE WHETHER OR NOT YOU USE AN AUTOTUNE OR HAVE THE PAIR SYSTEM DISABLED!

The PAIR system exists SOLELY as part of the catalytic converter system. When the converter is removed, there is absolutely NO reason to have it anymore. It has NO effect upon performance. Leaving it connected causes popping in the exhaust, much the same way a loose header pipe does.

If this is what your "mechanic/tuner" has been telling you, you need to find another one, because he doesn't know s**t about electronic engine control systems.

I've been running a PC-V/Autotune unit for two years, and set it up myself. That means I KNOW what's involved in installation and setup/programming. I also work with the EEC systems in Ducatis.
look the fresh air helps the exhaust burn better that is a fact.
I know the map is in the pcV but the AFT TABLE ISNT ACTIVATED UNTIL YOU HOOK UP THE AUTO TUNE.
The pair valeve Doesnt hurt anything so why waste the money to plug it.
The pair valve only opens on decel. GUESS WHAT THAT MEANS. the afr's when your accelerating are not affected!!!
so that would mean your auto tune will work just fine.
as far as exhaust temp... the hotter you can keep the exhaust the faster it flows which will raise your torque.
research some more... stop using street experiance instead of design facts.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-25-2011, 10:54 PM Thread Starter
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-25-2011, 10:55 PM
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-25-2011, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
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lol... i dont have a problem saying i am wrong... if i am wrong.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-26-2011, 03:59 AM
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Intriguing... Bugman says "without a PAIR valve you get very prominent explosions (popping) on decel, and these are completely eliminated when you restore the PAIR system to stock."
Like you mention, removing PAIR valve yields no performance benefits but does reduce exhaust popping tendency with low restriction silencer. I never did try it with stock exhaust and PAIR valve, but I did it for free and could resinstall PAIR hoses and valve if I chose to.

Last edited by invader; 05-26-2011 at 03:08 PM.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-26-2011, 06:20 AM
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I'm with ttpete on this one. The PAIR is solely there for emissions considerations and I've never seen any controlled tangible experiments showing how keeping it is a benefit to torque. Dyno's do not lie and I've spent more time and money on having bikes tested on them than most (average of 15-30 runs per bike, per round of modifications, close to 20 bikes since 1995..).

Look at it this way - if having an exhaust air injection system is a great way to increase torque and the cost is almost negligible, why doesn't every racing team in existence use one? From those campaigning in WERA/CCS to AMA levels of competition on up to Moto2, WSS, WSB, Moto2, etc?


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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-26-2011, 08:46 AM
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Popping and grumbling on decel is awesome...just sayin (IXIL)
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-26-2011, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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I'm with ttpete on this one. The PAIR is solely there for emissions considerations and I've never seen any controlled tangible experiments showing how keeping it is a benefit to torque. Dyno's do not lie and I've spent more time and money on having bikes tested on them than most (average of 15-30 runs per bike, per round of modifications, close to 20 bikes since 1995..).

Look at it this way - if having an exhaust air injection system is a great way to increase torque and the cost is almost negligible, why doesn't every racing team in existence use one? From those campaigning in WERA/CCS to AMA levels of competition on up to Moto2, WSS, WSB, Moto2, etc?
i didnt say it was a garuntee that it would help torque. BUT i did say that the fresh air helps burn unspent fuel which CAN help keep exhaust temp higher. which higher exhaust temps CAN raise torques lvls... even .01 TQ is still an increase.

for your second point the racing teams dont need it, i would think, because the pair valve ONLY works on DECEL. how often and how long do they stay in a decel state?

all i was trying to do with this post was tell everyone not to order block off kits. what a waste of money. After i finished my tunning my bike pops only maybe 1-2 times a day and i drive like 150 miles a day. stop taking me out of context.
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-26-2011, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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Popping and grumbling on decel is awesome...just sayin (IXIL)
thats what i am talking about! louder the better.. haha!
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-26-2011, 03:23 PM
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The PAIR valve does increase off-throttle backfiring tendency if mixture is lean enough at closed throttle (pilot circuit on carbed engines) with low-restriction exhaust. With PC-III or PC-V with Autotune, and to a certain point with main throttle sensor adjustment, enough fuel can be added to prevent exhaust popping under deceleration.

Last edited by invader; 05-26-2011 at 03:26 PM.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-26-2011, 06:20 PM
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The PAIR valve does increase off-throttle backfiring tendency if mixture is lean enough at closed throttle (pilot circuit on carbed engines) with low-restriction exhaust. With PC-III or PC-V with Autotune, and to a certain point with main throttle sensor adjustment, enough fuel can be added to prevent exhaust popping under deceleration.
The PC-V maps don't add fuel at zero percent throttle, and the Autotune doesn't adjust it. But you can go and manually richen it up. It's mentioned in the manual.

Quoting directly from the Autotune manual:

"Make sure the clean air system is blocked. Also called the PAIR valve, the clean air system draws fresh air out of the air box and dumps into the exhaust port to help ignite any unburnt fuel in the exhaust. This extra air will skew the AFR readings of the Autotune module."

"Dynojet does not recommend inputting values in the 0% column of the Target AFR tables. If you should need to tune the 0% column to combat popping on deceleration, input values directly in the Fuel tables."

If you're ever on this side of the river, stop by, and I'll plug the bike into the computer and you can see the setup.

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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-27-2011, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
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The PC-V maps don't add fuel at zero percent throttle, and the Autotune doesn't adjust it. But you can go and manually richen it up. It's mentioned in the manual.

Quoting directly from the Autotune manual:

"Make sure the clean air system is blocked. Also called the PAIR valve, the clean air system draws fresh air out of the air box and dumps into the exhaust port to help ignite any unburnt fuel in the exhaust. This extra air will skew the AFR readings of the Autotune module."

"Dynojet does not recommend inputting values in the 0% column of the Target AFR tables. If you should need to tune the 0% column to combat popping on deceleration, input values directly in the Fuel tables."

If you're ever on this side of the river, stop by, and I'll plug the bike into the computer and you can see the setup.

well i did put in the 0% and guess what no problems. i am running 0% up to 6500rpm at 13.8 now i have pretty much no popping.
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