camshaft swap? - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-05-2016, 11:01 PM Thread Starter
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camshaft swap?

i have seen the benefit of more aggressive cams in my old xr400 (dead due to the choke plate being ingested into the cylinder) and a stage one hot cam in my grizzly 550.

I'm thinking about ordering the cams from a 650r to swap its exhaust cam into my versys. if anyone has run this setup, could you tell me how it effected the power and torque? I'm just looking for a little more midrange kick.

for the $65, should i just get the 650r cams to try out?

would i need to adjust the fueling for swapping out just the exhaust cam?

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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-05-2016, 11:04 PM
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 06:04 AM
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The Ninja 650 motor has a different compression ratio which makes me think it has different cylinders. It also has different intake and exhaust cams and different fuel mapping. It would be easier to just swap motors.

That said I've ridden a few Ninja 650s and they seem to have less torque if only because it is not there at the same RPMs I feel it hit on the Versys. Unless you ride close to wide open throttle the 650 Versys engine has more power.
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 06:29 AM Thread Starter
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I have searched for hours on this subject, but there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer on how changing just the exhaust cam out to the 650r exhaust cam will affect the power and torque on the versys.

I'm not looking to swap engines, just to get a little bump in power in the mid range rpms. the 650r exhaust cam is a little bump in duration, so that should make a little bit more exhaust flow, but may reduce the down low torque.

I do go full throttle sometimes to feel the acceleration, but no, its not on a racetrack ever.

I was thinking, has anybody tried two versys exhaust cams to get more torque down low?

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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 06:40 AM Thread Starter
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I just ordered the cams from a 650r to play with, so i'll just see for myself where it put the power.

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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdrocks View Post
baloney, the ER6 sportbike motor has higher HP and torque numbers than the de-tuned Versys motor, although the motors in the 2015-16 Versys have closed the gap some. the ER6 motor makes HP and torque in a very usable range, and to say that a rider needs WOT with this motor is simply nonsense. the ER6/Versys bikes use the same transmission, so imagine yourself riding around at WOT on your Versys.

i only have 5000 miles on a stock Versys, but it was enough to confirm the differences between the two versions of the same motor.
SO that being said will a cam swap wake up the V motor a bit? I believe you would need to alter fueling as well.. But cams on their own should provide a noticeable difference even without compression changes. Probably not a very large difference but I would think certainly noticeable.
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdrocks View Post
baloney, the ER6 sportbike motor has higher HP and torque numbers than the de-tuned Versys motor, although the motors in the 2015-16 Versys have closed the gap some. the ER6 motor makes HP and torque in a very usable range, and to say that a rider needs WOT with this motor is simply nonsense. the ER6/Versys bikes use the same transmission, so imagine yourself riding around at WOT on your Versys.

i only have 5000 miles on a stock Versys, but it was enough to confirm the differences between the two versions of the same motor.
You don't get the same mid range wallop of torque on a Ninja 650 as you do on the Versys when pulling away. Also first gear is much lower on the Versys than it is on the Ninja motor. I believe all other gears are the same. Not saying one is better than the other, or there is an enormous difference, only they are slightly different. Also the Ninja I road was a 2008 so it may be different than a more recent Ninja 650.
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 07:07 PM Thread Starter
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I'm sure that if I swapped out the intake cam, I would need to add more fuel into the mix. I'm hoping that I wont need to add fuel with just the exhaust cam, but we'll see.

I don't have the cash for the pcv with autotune yet, but that's something I definitely need to get in the future.

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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 10:04 PM
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No need for more fuel or a PCV. You actually need to remove fuel progressively through the rev range. Stock or modded, it only needs a bit more fuel at the low end, mostly near 2800 rpm, and especially if riding at low elevation above sea level.... Rotating main throttle sensor counterclockwise just a tad does the trick.

Versys inlet and exhaust cam lobes have less duration and lift than the 650R's... Versys inlet camshaft is however identical to 650R's exhaust camshaft.

Ninja 650R/ER6:
Inlet- open 31 BTDC................Exhaust- open 50 BBDC
close 61 ABDC........................close 30 ATDC
duration 272..........................duration 260
cam height 36.6 +/- 0.057 mm... cam height 35.9 +/- 0.057 mm

Versys:
Inlet- open 25 BTDC................Exhaust- open 47 BBDC
close 54 ABDC........................close 25 ATDC
duration 260..........................duration 252
cam height 35.9 +/- 0.057 mm... cam height 35.4 +/- 0.057 mm


Gary "BRP"
Blue Ridge Performance

"We do not use high compression pistons. JE pistons weigh more than stock. Heavier parts move slower. We run stock pistons, with a milled head and cylinder... Depending on the track, we use different combos of Versys and 650R cams. (A cheap route, is to install a Versys intake cam in your 650R, and put the 650R intake cam in the exhaust.) We have billet cams ready to grind, but until we start getting some requests, they will stay in the unground form. Proper porting & compression nets the biggest gains.
Stock rods stretch a lot faster. Not a big problem, until you start getting over 75 hp. My engine builder is currently building some flat track engines. One is a 700cc, the other 750 using stock bore/rod length, with stroked crank and custom built pistons, with pin location moved. Those should be in the 90+ hp range."

Versys ignition timing ranges from 10 BTDC @ 1300 rpm, to 33 BTDC @ 5000+ rpm.
ER-6: From 10 BTDC @ 1300 rpm, to 35 BTDC @ 4800+ rpm.

Cylinder base gasket is about 0.25 mm thick. Head gasket is a 3-layer steel, about 0.75 mm thick... You can remove the center layer of the head gasket, using copper head gasket sealer to seal the outer layers together. Such is BRP's prefered method, instead of removing base gasket. Lowering the cylinder also lowers any wear ridge at top of stroke.


Alan Rodenborn
http://www.racingunlimited.com

"I've been roadracing EX500s since 1999. Won a few natl twins titles, with a fast rider.. Johnny Staska. You guys can google up that stuff.
My 540cc EX engine makes about 70 dynojet HP. My 600cc EX motor makes 80. The 600 will break a crank in two, usually some time after 250-300 race miles. I've got a (stiffer) crank stroker 650cc EX500 in the works, which should make closer to 90HP... With a 32mm (in) valve head. Who ever said that these bikes don't respond to porting, should be discounted immediately. I've spent hundreds of hours porting and flow testing EXs. Stock heads flow just over 100CFM @ 10in H2O. A good 32mm head will flow 140. My stroker 500 mis on the back burner, since we built a Ninja 650 Racebike.
The Ninja 650 made 98HP with 12.6 to 1 compression. I just revised to a single ring piston and 13.8:1 compression. Haven't been back to the dyno yet.
BTW, I've got 3 complete racebikes for sale, including the championshp winner... With a fresh 600cc engine. Also have a couple of nice race engines for sale."

Last edited by invader; 07-06-2016 at 10:08 PM.
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 06:03 AM
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so put a 650R intake cam into the versys exhaust side?
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 06:24 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
No need for more fuel or a PCV. You actually need to remove fuel progressively through the rev range. Stock or modded, it only needs a bit more fuel at the low end, mostly near 2800 rpm, and especially if riding at low elevation above sea level.... Rotating main throttle sensor counterclockwise just a tad does the trick.

Versys inlet and exhaust cam lobes have less duration and lift than the 650R's... Versys inlet camshaft is however identical to 650R's exhaust camshaft.

Ninja 650R/ER6:
Inlet- open 31 BTDC................Exhaust- open 50 BBDC
close 61 ABDC........................close 30 ATDC
duration 272..........................duration 260
cam height 36.6 +/- 0.057 mm... cam height 35.9 +/- 0.057 mm

Versys:
Inlet- open 25 BTDC................Exhaust- open 47 BBDC
close 54 ABDC........................close 25 ATDC
duration 260..........................duration 252
cam height 35.9 +/- 0.057 mm... cam height 35.4 +/- 0.057 mm


Gary "BRP"
Blue Ridge Performance

"We do not use high compression pistons. JE pistons weigh more than stock. Heavier parts move slower. We run stock pistons, with a milled head and cylinder... Depending on the track, we use different combos of Versys and 650R cams. (A cheap route, is to install a Versys intake cam in your 650R, and put the 650R intake cam in the exhaust.) We have billet cams ready to grind, but until we start getting some requests, they will stay in the unground form. Proper porting & compression nets the biggest gains.
Stock rods stretch a lot faster. Not a big problem, until you start getting over 75 hp. My engine builder is currently building some flat track engines. One is a 700cc, the other 750 using stock bore/rod length, with stroked crank and custom built pistons, with pin location moved. Those should be in the 90+ hp range."

Versys ignition timing ranges from 10 BTDC @ 1300 rpm, to 33 BTDC @ 5000+ rpm.
ER-6: From 10 BTDC @ 1300 rpm, to 35 BTDC @ 4800+ rpm.

Cylinder base gasket is about 0.25 mm thick. Head gasket is a 3-layer steel, about 0.75 mm thick... You can remove the center layer of the head gasket, using copper head gasket sealer to seal the outer layers together. Such is BRP's prefered method, instead of removing base gasket. Lowering the cylinder also lowers any wear ridge at top of stroke.


Alan Rodenborn
Welcome to the NEW Racing Unlimited.com

"I've been roadracing EX500s since 1999. Won a few natl twins titles, with a fast rider.. Johnny Staska. You guys can google up that stuff.
My 540cc EX engine makes about 70 dynojet HP. My 600cc EX motor makes 80. The 600 will break a crank in two, usually some time after 250-300 race miles. I've got a (stiffer) crank stroker 650cc EX500 in the works, which should make closer to 90HP... With a 32mm (in) valve head. Who ever said that these bikes don't respond to porting, should be discounted immediately. I've spent hundreds of hours porting and flow testing EXs. Stock heads flow just over 100CFM @ 10in H2O. A good 32mm head will flow 140. My stroker 500 mis on the back burner, since we built a Ninja 650 Racebike.
The Ninja 650 made 98HP with 12.6 to 1 compression. I just revised to a single ring piston and 13.8:1 compression. Haven't been back to the dyno yet.
BTW, I've got 3 complete racebikes for sale, including the championshp winner... With a fresh 600cc engine. Also have a couple of nice race engines for sale."
so your saying that even with both the 650r cams in the versys, I wont need to add fuel? to me, it seems that allowing more air to go through the engine would require more fuel so its not too lean.

when I cammed my xr, I did need bigger jets to get it to run 100%.

in your opinion, what would be the best setup of cams to get the most power and torque overall for street riding? would both 650r cams cause too much loss down low? should I just try that first to see how I like it?

I have never ridden a 650r, so I don't know how the power band is on it. I do know more lift and duration usually equals more power though.

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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jdrocks View Post
wrong again...the ER6 bikes and the Versys use the same cartridge transmission containing identical ratios 1st through 6th. the bikes are also delivered with the same OEM sprocket sets.

a 12-15% difference in the numbers is more than "slightly different", and even Kawasaki recognized this fact when they bumped up the performance on the latest generation Versys motor to make it more competitive with other bikes in the same class.

the Versys motor does work, no question, but the overall bike performance does benefit from added HP and torque. i've swapped in sportbike motors to all my Versys bikes, and never looked back.
Low ratio first gear - I looked this up on recent bikes (2016), all that I could find on a quick google search, and it seems to be identical however I seem to recall them mentioning this on a review of a Versys when it first came out in 2007. It may have been something that was changed with the refinement/redesign of the bikes over the years. There have also been changes to both the Versys and Ninja 650 engines over the years as the HP and torque numbers have changed somewhat.

Could be wrong but I believe the aluminum engine block uses a hardening process on the bore rather than cast iron cylinder liners. Would over boring the engine engine not destroy the hardened aluminum and make the engine much less durable?

Last edited by twowheels; 07-07-2016 at 12:30 PM.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jdrocks View Post
ER6 introduced in 2006, Versys in 2007 using the de-tuned ER6 motor. the motors below the top end were identical, including the transmission, and remained identical. the bikes still share the same transmission, with all performance changes having to do with compression, cams, exhaust, mapping, and so on.

the Kawasaki folks thought they got the transmission right the first time, and it has been unchanged for 10 years. the cartridge trans is an ingenious design, and can be removed/replaced in basically one lump, although trans problems are very rare.
My 2010 is considerably smoother shifting than my 2008 was and a 2015 I road is smoother still. The may have been doing some refinement over they years. Will post that link about first gear when I find it.
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 08:32 PM
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so your saying that even with both the 650r cams in the versys, I wont need to add fuel? to me, it seems that allowing more air to go through the engine would require more fuel so its not too lean.

when I cammed my xr, I did need bigger jets to get it to run 100%.

in your opinion, what would be the best setup of cams to get the most power and torque overall for street riding? would both 650r cams cause too much loss down low? should I just try that first to see how I like it?

I have never ridden a 650r, so I don't know how the power band is on it. I do know more lift and duration usually equals more power though.
That is always the case, yes. Anyone with a PCV will remove progressively more fuel as revs increase, no matter what the state of tune. This is quite typical, and is a good part of available power improvement.

There's no real point in trying to wring out more power out of it. It has great usable power for riding... If you want more performance and speed, trade it on a Z800 or ZX-6R.
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 11:08 PM
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I'm a bit confused. If I understand this thread correctly, removing fuel (leaning the mixture) will improve power?

In Post #28 of this thread, http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...-2010-v-2.html , I thought we assessed that the 2007-2009 bikes ran better because they flowed more fuel. I understood that the 2010+ were mapped differently (=anemic or lean).

Please help clarify.

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
That is always the case, yes. Anyone with a PCV will remove progressively more fuel as revs increase, no matter what the state of tune. This is quite typical, and is a good part of available power improvement.

There's no real point in trying to wring out more power out of it. It has great usable power for riding... If you want more performance and speed, trade it on a Z800 or ZX-6R.
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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-08-2016, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bwwoodard View Post
I'm a bit confused. If I understand this thread correctly, removing fuel (leaning the mixture) will improve power?

In Post #28 of this thread, http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...-2010-v-2.html , I thought we assessed that the 2007-2009 bikes ran better because they flowed more fuel. I understood that the 2010+ were mapped differently (=anemic or lean).

Please help clarify.

Thanks.
Some calibration changes were made with ignition timing advance and fuel curves. Still, a dynamometer test run with A/F ratio readout on any year Versys will show it being progressively too rich from near mid-range to redline... PCV removes progressively more fuel at WOT up to redline, which improves power, stock or not. Some fuel can however be added from idle to about 3000 rpm to cure the lean low end stumble, which is also quite typical.

Last edited by invader; 07-08-2016 at 12:17 AM.
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-08-2016, 06:49 AM Thread Starter
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so your telling me, even if I added a higher flowing air filter and exhaust, and both 650r cams, that I would still be taking away fuel from the stock fuel mapping? that doesn't make ANY sense!

more air going through the engine should require more fuel into it to not be so lean to burn it down. there is no possible way that the versys is that rich from the factory.

maybe you could take away fuel if your only going to run on a racetrack for a couple laps and then rebuild the engine afterwards, but that's not goal here. I don't want to sacrifice reliability for hp.

maybe we're just not talking about the same thing, but every single engine that I have modded to get more air into and more air out of the engine, has required MORE fuel overall, not less. I'm just trying to figure out how more air in now requires less fuel in to run properly.

to give an example of what I think your trying to say. if the versys were carbureted, and had a 250 main jet with a 40 pilot jet, with the mods, it would say bump up to a 265 main(top end power), but the pilot(off idle to 1/4 throttle) would go up a lot more than the main to like a 70?

in other words, the mid to top rpm fueling would not go up as much as the idle to 1/4 throttle fueling, but would get more fuel overall?

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-08-2016, 07:20 AM
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You won't get enough more air flow to overcome the already progressively too rich mid to top end... Check any PCV fuel map for different states of tune.

Even a carburated Ninja 250 benefits from a smaller main jet with removed air box snorkel and screen and with some exhaust mod, as included in Dynojet kit with a metering needle calibrated to draw more fuel at low to mid throttle opening.

Same with my free breathing modded car. It takes more fuel in low end and progressively less at higher rpm, to maintain near optimum 13.2:1 A/F ratio at WOT while in closed loop for maximum torque and resulting power across rev range.

http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...rent-slip.html

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Invader you were right!!!!

I will say it 10 times

YOU WERE RIGHT
YOU WERE RIGHT
YOU WERE RIGHT
YOU WERE RIGHT
YOU WERE RIGHT
YOU WERE RIGHT
YOU WERE RIGHT
YOU WERE RIGHT
YOU WERE RIGHT
YOU WERE RIGHT

I put the Memjet at ''2''(the smallest setting) and FINALLY I have what I want at top end
Almost the same with ER-6 performance (after changing the cams of course)

Now I can have two settings
Memjet at ''8'' for the city and twisty roads
Memjet at ''2'' for fast highway travel, plus the fuel economy
(or set it to ''5'' to have a little from both)
I must check my top speed again(was 220 km/h without the Memjet at all, in positive conditions, which means wind going with the direction)

Last edited by invader; 07-08-2016 at 05:08 PM.
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-08-2016, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by invader View Post
Even a carburated Ninja 250 benefits from a smaller main jet with removed air box snorkel and screen and with exhaust mods, as included in Dynojet kit with a metering needle calibrated to draw more fuel at low to mid throttle opening.

Just for the record, with a full exhaust and pods, a 250 needs a BIGGER main jet. 100% certain and confirmed by having my bike on the dyno. Stock is a 98 main and I needed 108 mains at my elevation.
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-08-2016, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sharkynrk View Post
Just for the record, with a full exhaust and pods, a 250 needs a BIGGER main jet. 100% certain and confirmed by having my bike on the dyno. Stock is a 98 main and I needed 108 mains at my elevation.
Yeah with a FULL EXHAUST system and PODS (no airbox at all) in that application, for sure.
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Last edited by invader; 07-08-2016 at 03:07 PM.
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