Epic Electrical Problem possibly two different ones. - Kawasaki Versys Forum
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-01-2014, 12:26 PM Thread Starter
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Epic Electrical Problem possibly two different ones.

The problem started with my own hands. I decided to replace front and rear brakes along with an oil change. That was easy so I got a little more audacious and decided to replace the chain along with front and rear sprockets. This is where life took a turn for the worse. I deemed a stand too much of an expense and decided to make my own stand to put the bike on while I worked on it. The bike inevitably fell off my jerry rigged stand and I didnít think much of it but I think that is where it all went wrong. After restoring the bike to service and replacing the damaged pieces that I broke I took it for a ride. All seemed well but then I noticed it running ďweirdĒ. The real indication of a problem was when it refused to charge the battery. I didnít take too many notes here but I eventually had to push start it and the head lights (high and low) wouldnít come on. When I got home I put it on the charger and it seemed to accept the charge and the next night tried again. This time it started right up but again didnít charge the battery and after a few miles it was running harsh again. I decided to pursue it as a charging issue and replaced the rectifier. That worked for <20mi then the fault happened again. So I replaced the battery and the relay box. Again it worked for a few miles then the real problem took over again. I have replaced the stator (more because I just had an extra one but it also eliminates that). Finally I started really paying attention and here it goes.

When I start the bike Voltage instantly drops. Expected due to FP.
When the starting motor starts to turn it drops another .5V
After the bike is running voltage doesnít return to the charging state and continues to tick down.
If you listen there is a whining sound. I found that it was the starting motor still turning! Even while the motor ran!!!
Once you disconnect the stator cord the starter stops and voltage goes back up by .5V. But without the stator it still doesnít charge.
Sadly that wasnít a good fix so I found the starter relay and jimmy rigged it so that I could touch the starter motor to the relay and then disconnect it. With the motor used to start the bike then disconnected and the stator still connected the bike returned to charging but the headlights still donít come on.
I have pulled the relay box and did a few checks on it. When you are looking at the tech manual for the Versys it tells you to connect the battery to check the ECU between terminals 2-11 and check continuity of 1-3. Nothing. It is open. I get it the relay box is bad but why?
So I checked the starting motor section. It says to not tap the motor (I dropped my bike) or you might damage it. The motor is grounded. But I donít know if it is supposed to be. Finally I donít know how this happened but with the key in off I was reconnecting the starting motor and it just started chugging!!! The stator was not connected so the lowest potential was the motor? I donít know it just freaked me out and I pulled the starting motor wire again.
I need my baby to run she makes life so much cheaper and selling her has never been an option. P.S. if you have a relay box for sale I would love to buy that.
The continuity check from positive to negative is <5ohms which I figure is from the lights and other accessories. If you have anything else I can try please help!!!
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 03:40 AM
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well you go into all this explaining, but you have failed to tell us what damage was done to the bike when it fell over? What did you pull off and replace?

Pulling something off to get to something else might have caused the issue... But I cannot for the life of me see what could have stuffed the bike soooo much just from a raised rear tip over - well if the rear tyre was off then that might be a big list.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 12:55 PM
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I bet a rear stand seams cheap now?

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 01:54 PM
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I bet a rear stand seams cheap now?
Ouch, but true...
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 09:36 PM
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For now my only comment;

http://www.ripleys.com/
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 11:05 AM
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I am an electronic engeneer and trouble shooter. So, what i would do is find out all the bike parts that hit ground. You already did the obvious, so the next step is to find the wires connected to the starter motor and look for any damage. There is no magic, the motor can't start by itself. Conclusion: somewhat, something, gives it a powersignal. The power itself comes directly from the battery. Checked it? The signal comes from the starter button throuhg the starter relay. Checked?
Obviously there is a powerdrain somewhere and i suspect the starting cicuit has to do with that.
You can download a service manual with an electric diagram.
I find that very helpful.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 01:04 PM
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Was the battery damaged? Are all the cells topped up?

The bike running rough is normal with a low charge, and if one of the posts broke on the battery , or the cells drained, it may not have enough juice to keep everything working correctly. Also, it won't charge well or at all.

I'm not sure if the starters are serviceable, but if you had an issue with the reg that you replaced, it's possible the brushes could have burnt themselves out.

The starter should be grounded to the motor, IIRC.

It sounds like either the starter is shorting out, or something is causing it to get juice when it shouldn't.

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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 01:38 AM
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Seems to me it is the Starter Relay switch is 'sticky', with the latching not releasing when the starter switch is off. If this is true, current will tend to go to the path of lower resistance and if this sticky latching is the path of lower resistance, the battery and plugs will receive inadequate current and thus not able to perform. The Coils will be working extra hard and may burn out eventually. This relay switch could be faulty if it cannot un-latch when the starter switch is off or if the starter switch itself is sticky causing a closed circuit even though the switch has been released (causing the relay switch to stay on).

About the headlamp not coming on, there seems to be a relay switch that will trigger the headlamp to turn on when the Key is at ON and the Starter switch is depressed momentarily. I am not sure if this relay switch is the same as the starter switch of is another relay switch which is also connected to the Starter switch.

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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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Additional. :D thanks for the help guys

So it fell off with the rear tire removed. parts I replaced are the brake/clutch lever and the right side passenger peg. (it fell on the right side really did a number to the swing arm and a scratch to the plastic) and yes the rear stand does seem real cheap now. lol

The speed sensor is another part that I had removed (to put on the new front sproket) and looking at the full schematic it feeds back through joint B to the headlights!? but the Speedo reads out perfectly and the meter cluster doesn't show any sign of problems.

and the relay for the Starter only stuck because the low potential. I didn't have the ground or the stator connected that means the starting motor was the only ground. I fixed that.

The battery is new and fully charged. its a VRLA so it doesn't need water...

The headlights are both good.

inside the relay box (I know a plug and chug box not one I can repair.) the power should come from pin 14 across to the headlight relays (which are in series! stupid design!!) but I'm not able to get it across to there without bypassing the starting relay (which inside the relay box works fine! it switches open and close when power is applied) the other relays just won"t take it.
Is there a way to solder a jumper in to realign power from maybe the fan relay which is still good to the headlights? what would I use? (I'm an electrician by trade but solid state and ckt cards are things the navy doesn't let me work on)

And what about continuity checks what would be a good way to go about checking for a grounded component? I took one between the battery terminals but is that good enough?
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 12:57 PM
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Check your frame ground which is behind the battery right next to the ECU,and also the ground that is very close to the throttle cable you're going to have to remove a piece of plastic right next to the throttle cable , looking at the starter cable , this ground is about 3 inches left.

Sorry for not giving a professional answer, I am a master electrician with electronic endorsement , and a motor shop background . First starting out I was given stuff nobody else could fix, pretty much continued like that for the next 35 years. I thought it was impossible for one person to have that much go wrong , and thought it was made up by someone that was recently kicked off this site.Nice thing about this site is you can always go back and edit

:

I think you may be mistaken about your headlight relay, look under burnt stators, I have some extensive tests to prove what needs replacing.

FYI. Slow down in replacing stuff, unless you have lots of money, always best to prove what is wrong, then replace. Easy to cause damage with adding parts that are installed incorrectly.

First thing I would do is disconnect the stator at the TPS sensor, measure the 3 phase voltage at idle coming from the stator, A-B , B-C, C-A, should be around 20 volts AC @ 1400 RPM , give or take a volt.

To check headlight relay, turn key to on, no need to start bike, same connector but socket that continues to regulator, take a jumper wire from positive terminal and touch any one of these three wires, one of the three goes to a diode and the relay, check each one, one of them should pull the relay in, once pulled in the relay latches-------in other words if your bike was running and you stalled it, the headlight would remain on, however initial starting, the headlight is out of the circuit until the stator starts to produce power to reduce load on the battery.


Last edited by onewizard; 09-07-2014 at 11:01 PM.
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-15-2014, 10:02 PM
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Bump???????????????
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-16-2014, 06:17 PM Thread Starter
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All the grounds were good. To add to the troubles I fried the ECU/I think I found the reason the relay was blown. If the ECU was drawing too much it would short out relay 1?
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-17-2014, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by salazar5145 View Post
All the grounds were good. To add to the troubles I fried the ECU/I think I found the reason the relay was blown. If the ECU was drawing too much it would short out relay 1?
In your first post you mention what happens when the bike is running---"When I start the bike Voltage instantly drops."

To the best of my knowledge it won't run with a fried ECU which also drives ECU main relay.

Maybe you need professional help.

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