Hunting between 3000 and 4000 rpm - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 08:26 AM Thread Starter
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Unhappy Hunting between 3000 and 4000 rpm

Hi all,

I'm really hoping that you can help answer a question about the V and how they behave between 3000 and 4000 RPM.

9 days ago I purchased a 2009 V with 2390 miles on the clock. Since purchasing it I have found that the engine is hunting when the engine revs are between 3000 and 4000 RPM. I don't think that this is the vibration that other users have reported (the bike has a vibration from the dash/screen between 2800 to 3500 RPM and I can live with that) but the bike physically slows down and then accelerates again before repeating the process. The symptoms get worse when going down hill and the bike slows considerably when going up hill without a big correction in throttle position and a long delay.

The problem can also be seen when revving the engine in neutral. Holding the throttle open so that the revs are between 3000 and 4000 RPM the rev counter needle drops by between 100 and 300 RPM for between half and one second every one to three seconds. This means that riding my V on urban roads or in heavy traffic is an uncomfortable and un-enjoyable experience . It runs like a dream above 6000 RPM.

Is this normal behaviour for a V? More importantly, are these the same symptoms that other V riders are referring to as vibration between 3000 and 4000 RPM?

In my hunt for an answer I have also ridden an ER6 which uses the same engine, throttle bodies, injectors and ignition system as the V (the injector mapping is different) and it didn't have the problem with hunting that my V does. I would have tried another V but they're very popular and there aren't any for sale near me at the moment.

The spark plugs have been replaced, I've drained the fuel tank and replaced the fuel and I've also fitted the vacuum hose mod recommended by Invader (http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...read.php?t=661) in the hope that it will help resolve the hunting problem, but there hasn't been any improvement.

Thanks in advance.

andygs79
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 09:30 AM
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All my time on the forum I have not heard of this problem and not a common problem.

I would trust every word of invader and maybe even send him a pm. He has helped many us out on the forum.

What you describe is kind of a flat spot. If your intake is clear and your exhaust is clear, the fi is set correctly, could it be this vacum hose placement?

Pull one of those hoses and see if it does the same thing?

I'm not a mechanic just trying to help you out!





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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 09:42 AM
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I would say it is not normal. Hopefully you will be able to correct it. I had a 2008 Harley Sportster that came from the factory with that problem at a lower rpm, right in the 30 to 40 mph range. Ruined an otherwise decent motorcycle. Was able to correct it with a Power Commander and less restrictive pipes but it greatly dropped fuel mileage and was nosier than I liked. My 2011 Versys has the best fueling of any of the fuel injected bike I have owned, I would say it is next to flawless. Perhaps it has a throttle position sensor problem.
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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Hi MTS and shilohsam,

Thanks for your responses. I'm very pleased to hear that not all V's are like the one that I have purchased.

I will now feel a little more confident when I go back to the dealer that sold the bike and insist that they do something about it. So far they have completely refused to do any investigation or make any attempt to fix the fault. In fact, they've told me that it is a characteristic of Kawasaki's engine :-O

I'd still like to here from others about how their V's behave between 3000 and 4000 RPM because the more responses you can give me, the more weight I will have behind my fault claim when I go back to what is proving to be a very difficult motorcycle dealer.

I'd also like to know if anyone's V has suffered from this problem and if so how it was resolved?

Thanks again.

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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by andygs79 View Post
Hi MTS and shilohsam,

Thanks for your responses. I'm very pleased to hear that not all V's are like the one that I have purchased.

I will now feel a little more confident when I go back to the dealer that sold the bike and insist that they do something about it. So far they have completely refused to do any investigation or make any attempt to fix the fault. In fact, they've told me that it is a characteristic of Kawasaki's engine :-O

I'd still like to here from others about how their V's behave between 3000 and 4000 RPM because the more responses you can give me, the more weight I will have behind my fault claim when I go back to what is proving to be a very difficult motorcycle dealer.

I'd also like to know if anyone's V has suffered from this problem and if so how it was resolved?

Thanks again.

andygs79

If your dealer won't do anything. Let them know you will call Kawasaki's Headquarters. I know in car owners manuals they have the number to call if a dealer isn't doing you any good. I had to call once on a car i bought. When the dealer got the call about my complaint they jumped through hoops to fix my car.

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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 11:01 AM
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 11:42 AM
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Both my Vs are great between 3 and 4,000 rpm (and THROUGHOUT the rev-range!), but what I will suggest is that perhaps your throttle-cables have too much slack. Adjust them as per your OWNERS MANUAL (in mine for my '08, it's pages 112 to 114).

Good luck!

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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 11:44 AM
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I have an 09 V, 20,000 miles. Never had anything like you described. With Invaders vacuum-hose mod, it rides very smooth at low RPMs, including between 3,000 and 4,000.

Sounds like a "fueling" problem to me. Hopefully Invader will jump in with some of his insight.
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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shilohsam View Post
I would say it is not normal. My 2011 Versys has the best fueling of any of the fuel injected bike I have owned, I would say it is next to flawless. Perhaps it has a throttle position sensor problem.
MY 08 used to behave like that and all it took was a touch on the tps. Now its near perfect for drive-ability, but my mileage has suffered and I am prepared to accept that....
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 03:57 PM Thread Starter
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Hi weljo2001,

Thanks for the advice and the link.

Unfortunately the dealer that sold me the V is not a Kawasaki dealer and therefore I don't think Kawasaki will really care if I speak to them.

On the other hand they are a Triumph dealer, but I don't think Triumph will care about them selling a faulty Kawasaki. Although Triumph may care about how customers are treated at this particular dealer it is the only one within 3 counties, so I'll keep your suggestion in mind.
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 04:22 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fasteddiecopeman View Post
Both my Vs are great between 3 and 4,000 rpm (and THROUGHOUT the rev-range!), but what I will suggest is that perhaps your throttle-cables have too much slack. Adjust them as per your OWNERS MANUAL (in mine for my '08, it's pages 112 to 114).

Good luck!
Hi fasteddiecopeman,

Thanks for the advice.

Checking the slack in the throttle-cables hadn't even crossed my mind. The bike was sold with a full service history and was supposedly 'serviced' before I purchased it, so I didn't think that checking free play in cables would be necessary.

However I appreciate the advice and have done as you suggested. The slack in the cables is within the quoted tolerance of 2 to 3 mm.

Thanks for the advice and let me know if you think of anything else.

I'm off to read the owners manual to look for anything else that may be worth checking
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
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Hi ScottyNeal and reniram,

I must admit that the symptoms do suggest not enough fuel is being delivered to the engine in the 3000 to 4000 RPM range. If this was an older bike with one or a number of carburettors I would have had the carb's off, cleaned, refitted and balanced by now (which just goes to show how old some of my motorbikes have been). The problem is that I don't have the means to diagnose fuel delivery problems myself where injectors and computers are involved.

I have contacted my local Kawasaki dealer and they are going to have a look at the V on Friday. With luck they'll find the fault. In the mean time the poor V is sat at home not being used.

I haven't tried disconnecting the vacuum hose that links the TBS to the IAP yet but will give it a go tomorrow (it's dark and wet here at the moment) and report back.

Thanks again for all of your help.

I did see a post on a forum (I thought it was this one but I cannot find it again) about a faulty clutch switch causing problems similar to those that my V is experiencing. Does anyone know if the V reduces the fuel delivered to the cylinders when in Neutral or when the clutch lever is pulled in? It's a long shot but I'm starting to get desperate and I'm running out of time to get a refund on the V if the fault cannot be resolved.
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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 04:55 PM
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Hi ScottyNeal and reniram,

I'm starting to get desperate and I'm running out of time to get a refund on the V if the fault cannot be resolved.


Hell if you can take it back and get a refund. Thens thats what i would do and tell them when they get it fixed to give you a call and you might be interested in purchasing it again.....

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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 05:12 PM Thread Starter
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Hell if you can take it back and get a refund. Thens thats what i would do and tell them when they get it fixed to give you a call and you might be interested in purchasing it again.....
The only way I'm going to get a refund is to go to through the legal system. I am entitled to one but the dealer would have to agree that the V is faulty and they don't. In fact, if they'd have spent as much time actually listening and investigating rather than making up excuses we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

To be honest, if the fault can be fixed I would prefer to keep the V. It's not everyday that you come across a V over here, let alone at that age, with low mileage, in my price range and in immaculate condition - with the exception of the fault.

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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 05:43 PM
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I have a newer 2012 V with the same engine. No surging issues on my V at any RPM either. Hope this helps you "build a case".

I have had surging problems with carburated bikes in the past. Taking the carbs off and giving them a through cleaning fixed them. However, I don't know how to service FI systems but I'm betting its all fuel related. my $00.02
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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 06:04 PM
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I did see a post on a forum (I thought it was this one but I cannot find it again) about a faulty clutch switch causing problems similar to those that my V is experiencing. Does anyone know if the V reduces the fuel delivered to the cylinders when in Neutral or when the clutch lever is pulled in?
Clutch switch is just a starter lockout switch. It has absolutely nothing to do with the ECU or air/fuel mixture calibration... I tried to snap them out of that dream.

Shifting out of neutral while in cold fast idle does further increase rpm, apparently with additional ignition timing advance.

Your problem is most likely with the main throttle sensor. It's only available with the two throttle bodies assembly, and not on its own. Main (and sub) throttle sensor voltage output could easily be checked through its motion range. There usually are a couple of main throttle sensors for sale on Ebay.

Last edited by invader; 01-27-2014 at 08:19 PM.
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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 08:24 PM
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My bike does not hunt as bad as yours.
I have issues holding steady RPM between 2200 and 3200. It jutters but does not loose power and drop rpms like yours does for seconds.

Note I have a LAMS (learner) Restricted bike so this might have something to do with it - maybe.

I have the TB Vacuum hose mod - but I modified it to a looped hose system and a TAP, so I can turn on and off the mod - for me the mod does nothing discernible.
What really helped some things a bit was doing a TB synchronization. It has reduced it but it is still there.

Other thing to test is the O2 sensor, down low the ECU might not really measure the O2 but uses a fixed lean map ( I read that Yamaha XT660 singles are like this), but on the cross over point maybe like 4500 rpm the ECU kicks in and what you might be seeing is the ECU jumping between Real and stored fuel mappings - it is felt as surging.
see his products here that explains it - but nothing for us : http://www.ebay.com.au/usr/7416kevinh

another thing to look at is chain tension - it can exacerbate the feeling of surging.

I have also read that the sub-throttle sensor might cause it as well (advanced mod)

Try the simple things first. TB Sync and Chain tension and test O2 sensor.

Hoping it is an easy fix.

Last edited by Gigitt; 01-27-2014 at 08:31 PM.
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 08:31 PM
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If your main and sub throttle sensors are good and progressive as they should be, you may try rotating main throttle sensor counterclockwise by a mm or so to cure low throttle opening lean rpm hunting. Mine was just below spec range at WOT. Adjusting it fixed the lean stumble at near 2,800 rpm.

Last edited by invader; 01-27-2014 at 08:38 PM.
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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 09:39 PM
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I have an 09 Versys and I would say that this is not normal; although the Versys seems to happiest at >5K RPM. Take it to a Kawasaki dealer.

Jim

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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 10:03 PM
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It is more prone to lean rpm hunting when cruising, or lean stumble/surge at around 2,800 rpm at low throttle opening at low elevations where the air is denser, such as in Southampton, UK. The lean setting for emssions purposes can be corrected by rotating main throttle sensor slightly counterclockwise.

O2 sensor (Europe/Australia...) and TB synchronization could also be checked, as mentioned by Gigitt.

Last edited by invader; 01-28-2014 at 07:05 PM.
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