Strange bike behaviour. Floating problem - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-21-2019, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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Question Strange bike behaviour. Floating problem

Due to poor English, could not come up with a better thread name (

However try to explain in a short story
I have some floating problem that kills me and which I can't solve for a long time.

Sometimes my bike is perfect. Runs fast, sounds well.
But sometimes.
Symptoms:
  1. it begin to sound strained. It seems like added some metall and bubbling notes into muffler sound. I could compare it with the car working with potatoe in muffler. Also some popping in muffler (rarely in airbox) appears when gas at idle.
  2. Engine vibrations increases very much, mirrors at idle vibrates so that I couldn't see clearly, only could see blurry silhouettes.
  3. And in addition to all previous simpotms the bike loose its power a little. I mean its felts some laziness in acceleration and RPM rising afer 6000 reluctantly.
  4. After long ride bike smells more then it should, I think. I mean a smell of gasoline, exhaust gas and something else ))))


All above mentioned symptomes as usual comes after 15-30 minutes of riding the cold bike. In hot weather (more then 15C) they comes a bit earlier, when it's cold - a bit later.

No errors in memory of ECU and never FI light goes on (except my own interventions).

The bike is 2007 year. I've bought it with 9000km at odometr and it seems like true milleage.
I've mentioned this problem at 11K milleage. But as my first 2K millieage on this bike were on the road from Moscow to Ekaterinburg where I've mentioned nothing, only the road and +5C temperature ))))
So I think the problem was from the begining.

What was done:
After purchase all fluids and filters were changed. Spark plugs were changed.
Thermostat was changed.
vacuum synchroniziation was made
Compression measurement was done (16 kg/cm3 each)

After finding this problem first time:
I've checked the condition of spark plugs again and found that right cylynder spark plug have a bit black plaque on the insulator, but not the left.
I've swapped ignition coils, done 300-400 km - nothing changes, right spark plug was a bit worse then left.
Then I take off nozzles and put them into nozzles test stand.
Then starts testing six times for 15 seconds each - left nozzle always poured 82,5 ml, but right nozzle 2 times poured the same but 4 times poured 87,5 ml.
Decide to relace right nozzle.

New nozzle was ordered and replaced. Vacuum synchroniziation was made again. Spark plugs were changed again )))

Nothing changes. Still have above symptoms.

Then valve clearance was checked - inlet were ok, outlet were near lower border and have been adjusted.
Vacuum synchroniziation was made again.

And what? You understand, nothing changes. Still have above symptoms.

Then I check the resistance of all sensors comparing to service manual - everything ok.

Then I have disconnected O2 sensor and ride without it about 20-30 minutes. FI light is on but otherwise nothing changes. After some time of riding same symptoms.

Then I have disconnected IAT sensor and ride without it about 20-30 minutes. FI light is on but otherwise nothing changes. After some time of riding same symptoms.

During above mentioned body movements I've ride 6000 km

Yesterday I've made one more attempt. Despite of the fact that exhaust pressure from muffler seems to be high - I descide to check the cat.
I removed O2 sensor from muffler and left a hole. And then ride.
First impression was that birds falls down when I open the throttle.
Second impression - no symptoms. I've ride about 30 minutes - bike was perfect always. RPM easily rises to 9000. No vibrations. As for symptom of metall and bubbling sound - can't say nothing, see impression number one

Very happy, I put O2 sensor back and want to ride home to check how to remove the cat.
But then some problems appears. With O2 sensor installed I ride about an hour - no symptoms at all. Perfect bike with perfect acceleration and sound.
Facepalm.

Today have a ride again to check if something changes. First 50 km - everything was fine.
Then appears symptoms of strained sound with metall and bubbling notes in muffler. And light vibrations comes to me.
But acceleration was still perfect, very easily rising RPM until 8000 - 9000 (did not twist above these RPMs).
After that I've done about 100 km within a day. And still the same. Bad sound and light/middle vibrations, but perfect acceleration.

So now I'm at a standstill

Can't explain this behaviour and my idea to take off the cat seems not very good for me now.

The main problem for me is that I want to extend summer and go for a trip about 4-5K km at the end of next week, but with this floating problem a bit afraid to do this


Finally:
People, who could read until this point, are worthy of a medal from me

If somebody could understand at least smthng from my writing and have any ideas - you are welcome )))
I'll be very appreciated for any ideas )))
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-21-2019, 10:41 PM
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Service

Several things, 2007, what is the mileage? Has the valve shim check been done? Vacuum sync done? My first guess would be to pull the gas tank and check the stick coils, 2007 are known to have problems with cracked coils, engine heats up and metal expands, the copper winding of the stick coils heat up and expand, with a cracked coil condensation can form after cooling down, over time when first starting carbon tracking can occur, eventually you can get shorted turns and stick coil failure / misfire. Next on the list is to check both main and sub throttle sensors , you need the harness and a good meter. Look in TPS How To Forum. There could be other problems but this is a start.My very first check would be the stick coils. See this thread;
https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...e-blowing.html
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-22-2019, 12:55 AM
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You might consider looking at your exhaust system- a replacement with an aftermarket exhaust. You don't need the CAT ( if the Law in your place allows that). I have run my 09 without CAT and no backfire at all or Bird dropping or falling. Check the sticky coils first as what Onewizard said.

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-22-2019, 02:55 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
Several things, 2007, what is the mileage? Has the valve shim check been done? Vacuum sync done?
a bit more then 17000 km. All was done as I wrote above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
My first guess would be to pull the gas tank and check the stick coils
I've checked them and found nothing. Servicemans checked it too and also found nothing.
The resistance of the coils are ok. Have no spare coils to replace and check if somth will change.
BTW, as I think, ignition coils problem must influence spark plugs condition. If some misfiring occurs - spark plugs must have signs of reach fuel mixture.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-22-2019, 03:03 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastoman View Post
You might consider looking at your exhaust system- a replacement with an aftermarket exhaust.
in this case it's simpler and cheaper to remove cat from stock muffler then to buy new one

the problem is that after returning O2 sensor back I'm still have perfect acceleration with a bit vibrations and strained sound. And I can't explain how is it so. Cat have problems and then after removing O2 sensor, having a ride and puting O2 sensor back, cat suddenly recovers? ))))
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-22-2019, 10:45 AM
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Try switching sides of the stick coils to see if the problem moves to the other side. Bench testing and measuring the the coils without the heat does not rule out a bad coil.

Best part it is not to difficult and it is free. Good luck!
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-22-2019, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SteveJ View Post
Try switching sides of the stick coils to see if the problem moves to the other side.
already done as I wrote
nothing changes ))


today is +5C
have a ride for an hour
Acceleration is perfect all the time. Some engine vibrations a bit and some muffler bubbling.
may be my bikes ECU was flashed for winter use?

To kill or not to kill the cat, that is the question
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-22-2019, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deBug View Post
already done as I wrote
nothing changes ))


today is +5C
have a ride for an hour
Acceleration is perfect all the time. Some engine vibrations a bit and some muffler bubbling.
may be my bikes ECU was flashed for winter use?

To kill or not to kill the cat, that is the question
I had more time today and read your post again. A couple things to look at.Your mention of stick coils and rich looking plugs doesn't match, I still would put my money on the stick coils, when heated you could have a partial short on the primary, the suggestion of swapping coils from cylinder 1 to 2 will prove nothing, unless one plug looks more discolored than the other, since you mention mechanic, did he check the plugs?? Have you inspected your vacuum lines, MK-1 and MK-2 have known to have cracked vacuum lines, this will throw everything off especially at 5000 RPM or higher. For the price, I would replace all the vacuum lines, less than $20, I highlighted because some have had a cracked line to a sensor. Also is the air box mounted properly, I know on my old 07 it was very easy to look like it was mounted properly however it is on a downward angle and I experienced similar problems as you describe, fortunately I had just done my valve shim vacuum sync and re inspected my work.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-22-2019, 03:24 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
I still would put my money on the stick coils, when heated you could have a partial short on the primary, the suggestion of swapping coils from cylinder 1 to 2 will prove nothing, unless one plug looks more discolored than the other, since you mention mechanic, did he check the plugs??
two differents services have checked the coils visually and sad that's everything is ok
Can't undertstand why swapping the coils prove nothing. As I understand it prove nothing if both coils are bad )))

Also, how bad coils could be suddenly not so bad after removing O2 sensor and still from that moment )))

Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
Have you inspected your vacuum lines, MK-1 and MK-2 have known to have cracked vacuum lines, this will throw everything off especially at 5000 RPM or higher.
What do you mean about lines??
As I know there is only one line/hose which comes from throttle body to MAP sensor. This one I've checked vissually and by mouth )))
There are some more vacuum hoses?


Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
Also is the air box mounted properly, I know on my old 07 it was very easy to look like it was mounted properly however it is on a downward angle and I experienced similar problems as you describe
This summer I've reinstalled airbox so many times that seems could do this with closed eyes )))
However this was checked of couse.
And once more, how could all this be realated with O2 sensor removing and subsequent disappearance of 90% symptoms ...
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-22-2019, 03:27 PM Thread Starter
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may be while riding without O2 sensor the cat was blown a bit and now have a bit more health?
Sounds idiotic but nothing to imagine
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-22-2019, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
two differents services have checked the coils visually and sad that's everything is ok
Can't undertstand why swapping the coils prove nothing. As I understand it prove nothing if both coils are bad )))

Also, how bad coils could be suddenly not so bad after removing O2 sensor and still from that moment )))
More detailed explanation. The purpose of switching the coils is to determine if the right side coil has issues, as that is the spark plug that had deposits on it. Switching the coils should move the problem of deposits on the spark plug to move to the left side. The bike would likely run the same, you are just trying to determine if the coil is the problem when heated up. If the coil is bad and creates deposits on the left spark plug, one could conclude that indeed it is a bad coil. Visually inspecting the coil and on bench testing of the coils will not determine whether the coil is defective if it only acts up when hot.

I don't know about the Oxy sensor issue except you are possibly changing the mixture and back pressure issues enough to let the weak coil fire the spark plug. Just guessing on this.
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-22-2019, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deBug View Post
in this case it's simpler and cheaper to remove cat from stock muffler then to buy new one

the problem is that after returning O2 sensor back I'm still have perfect acceleration with a bit vibrations and strained sound. And I can't explain how is it so. Cat have problems and then after removing O2 sensor, having a ride and puting O2 sensor back, cat suddenly recovers? ))))
Quote:
Originally Posted by deBug View Post
may be while riding without O2 sensor the cat was blown a bit and now have a bit more health?
Sounds idiotic but nothing to imagine
Maybe its the O2 sensor...just trying to break the puzzle.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SteveJ View Post
The purpose of switching the coils is to determine if the right side coil has issues, as that is the spark plug that had deposits on it. Switching the coils should move the problem of deposits on the spark plug to move to the left side.
I agree with this and this was done as I wrote and nothing changes in condition of spark plugs
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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Maybe its the O2 sensor...just trying to break the puzzle.
Will try to read voltage from it and check
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 02:48 PM
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Service Manual 3-73

Quote:
Originally Posted by deBug View Post
Will try to read voltage from it and check
From what I can understand, there are several tests, one is for the heater, another is the sensor output at 0.7VDC and a second with plugs removed at 0.2 VDC section 3-73 of the MK-2 service manual. I also understand there is a service code expected to be generated upon failure. Yours might just be on the edge. I mentioned vacuum lines, intake air pressure sensor https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...13-post13.html
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