No fuel to START...on intermittent occassions... - Kawasaki Versys Forum
 
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-31-2013, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
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No fuel to START...on intermittent occassions...

Hey guys. In the middle of trouble shooting an intermiitent starting issue on an 08 V with only 5K. [Yeah, I am ashamed but mitigating circumstances]

Super condensed version... Over a 3 to 4 week period last summer, bike would turn over fine, good voltage/charge on batt but not start. This happened 5 or 6 times.


Bike WOULD run flawlessly [once started] as it had since I bought it. The very first time it happened the bike had sarted, ridden just a quarter mile and parked 5 minutes. I was at work. I did nothing but wait for an hour. It started right up. About a week later it would not start at work again. Waited an hour and ran the battery down trying to start it. Put batt on a charger. Twelve hours later back at work and it starts. Four or five days go by with numerous hot and cold starts. No problem. Maybe 4 or 5 days later at home, won't start. Batt checks at 12.84 volts. One shot of starting fluid later it starts and runs flawlessly as always. Problem "solved". Sorta. The starting fluid goes with me... and always fires the bike almost immediately 3 or 4 more times maybe every 10th start or more for the next couple of weeks. Then, won't start even with the fluid. [at home luckily] I pull the tank, empty the remaining gas [looks good] pull and inspect fuel pump and filter, both look great. Reinstall tank with fresh fuel and still won't start with or without starting fluid. $#%@$#*#$%

It stayed parked since then until yesterday when I decided enough was enough. NEW battery charged and installed. Pulled tank again, rechecked pump/filter and decided just for grins to install new pugs. What the hell... Old ones looked fine. It now sarts with the staritng fluid but won't run. I tried with the gas cap open and still no dice although last summer all through the problems it obviously was not a venting issue.

I thought I would check with you guys for any thoughts before I pull things apart again and start checking relays, injectors etc. I did only put ONE gallon of fresh gas in, in case I have to pull tank again. Certainly that would be enough for pump to prime it would seem??? The next step is obviously to check fuel output and pressure...

One thing I did not mention is that I don't have an idiot FI light and that I ALWAYS hear the pump prime up on every turn of the key although it has always seemed closer to 2 seconds than three to my ears from day one.

Thanks, guys.
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-31-2013, 06:16 PM
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Is your normal warmed up idle speed set at 1300 rpm?
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-31-2013, 10:06 PM
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SLAFFA - Have you checked your fuel-line as I suggested in a PM?

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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 06:55 AM
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Get a diagnostic fault test done at a dealership
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLAFFA View Post
One thing I did not mention is that I don't have an idiot FI light and that I ALWAYS hear the pump prime up on every turn of the key although it has always seemed closer to 2 seconds than three to my ears from day one.
You don't have an FI light, or it didn't go on? If it did go on, you can do a self diagnosis by grounding the bullet connector to read the codes... There is no trouble code for the fuel pump.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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Invader, I don't believe it's 1300 even cold. Around 900 warm to the best of my memory ever since I bought it. It's always idled superbly though either cold or hot. And the FI light operates normally per the manual. And yes I saw in the manual that the pump along with several other components will not give a code but golly there are a ton of things that will! Self diagnosis and non self diagnosis...Good Grief!

Eddie, I had found the online service manual and already reassembled everything by the time I got your email and spent several hours studying it and all the troubleshooting entries trying to see what separates starting from running as far as fuel. I actually wrote the OP up several days ago.

Just 15 minutes ago I finally had a chance to pull the tank, disconnect the fuel line and check the pump. I hear it run as always but it puts out nada, nothing, not even a drop even after four or five key turns the last two with the gas tank lid open. Funny thing is, there WAS slight pressure in the fuel line when I disconnected it and maybe half a teaspoon discharged from it...? Put another gallon of fresh gas in just to be sure pump was submergeed but no change - still no output at all.

I'm currently running on 1 hour of sleep in the last 24, so I will recheck the service manual tomorrow in case I somehow missed something before coughing up 200 bucks for a pump. Not sure just how the pressure regulator works, so I may pull the pump yet again and give the regualtor a few taps and try it one more time before ordering a pump. I don't see a timer relay for the fuel pump anywhere in the DFI chapter so I am guessing at the turn of the key, it shuts off because it has built up pressure? Or maybe there is a relay built into the ECU?
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 08:05 PM
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Normal warmed up idle speed must be set to 1300 +/- 50 rpm with adjustment knob on the right.

ECU is programmed to operate the fuel pump for 3 seconds when ignition is turned on. According to service manual, the pressure regulator is built into the fuel pump and cannot be removed. If the fuel pressure is much lower than specified (43 psi at idle), the fuel pressure regulator in the fuel pump may have been clogged or stuck. Replace the fuel pump.

Fuel Pump Failure (Occurrence level – rare)

http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~sh...tml#Question_7

Many used fuel pumps available from $50.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...l+pump&_sop=15

Last edited by invader; 02-01-2013 at 08:13 PM.
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-06-2013, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
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Update time. She's a running and purring like a kitten as of a couple of hours ago hour ago. CONTRARY to what the service manual says the pump CAN be..."tinkered with" which is basically what I did after pricing new pumps at about 220. Had nothing to lose. So for anyone with a fuel related issue...

After draining tank and removing pump yet again, I removed the three screws holding the plastic body to the mounting flange. Just 3 philips screws but boy were they tight! The plastic "cage" is what holds the motor in. The filter itself does seem to be attached in such a way that the only way to get it off is to break it off. The mesh screen is obvious, what isn't so obvious is that it [mine at least] appears to be filled with charcoal! wtf? Anyone else notice it on their own filters or anyone purchase/install a new pump? Anyway, I reconnected the two small leads that go to motor [red to positive] and then placed both the pump and the flange with the little doohicky thing at the opposite end [have no idea what it does] into a clean plastic container filled with gas. A 40 OZ peanut butter jar was perfect. Pump motor was upside down with discharge end up. Flange/mount was placed opposite of being in gas tank. A five gallon upside down bucket sitting next to bike was the perfect height to set the jar next to the bike and plug pump back into the electrical connector. The pressure regulator is not on the pump at this time of course. I attached a 2 foot piece of clear plastic tubing to the discharge end of pump. First turn of the key and the motor jumps from the torque but no liquid. Clearly the motor is not locked up. Same results with two or three more turns of the key. On about the fifth try, I see just a tiny bit of liquid in tube and just a bit more with each successive try. On maybe the 10th try it is now pumping at the prescribed 60 mil or greater per key turn BUT what it is pumping is quite black despite the fact it is sitting in clean gasoline. It's obviously pumping whatever it is IN the filter. Finally the gas runs clear. Filter still looks black. I reassemble the pump, and have the bike put back together in 15 minutes minus all those coverings. It fires immediately and purrs like a kitten. Cold idle about 1200 before dropping to around 900 warm like it has always been. I adjust it up to 1300. It runs perfectly for a short 5 minute ride. Lucky for me, I live close to work and seldom take any trips so I'll wait and see if/how long it lasts. Any more trouble and I will simply replace it.

I DID do some "light tapping" on both the regulator and the motor after disasembling. Not sure if that helped any. The regulator "shell" has a tab on each side that appears to lock the shell to the regulator body but I gave up after 5 minutes.

I'm wary of purchasing anything electrical used. Anyone done so and been satisfied?

Last edited by SLAFFA; 02-06-2013 at 11:26 PM.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-07-2013, 04:26 AM
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So at 5,000 miles in nearly 5 years, what's the longest period of time that it held the same gasoline for, and what grade and ethanol content?

I don't know when the fuel pump part number was changed from 49040-0010 to 49040-0026, and if it was improved at all... You'd do well with a later model's pump with low mileage. Versys pump failures are in fact very rare as they usually last forever. They all have charcoal in the filter pouch.

Here's are some very clean looking ones for under $100:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/09-10-11-12-...0627e8&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/09-Kawasaki-...814d73&vxp=mtr
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-07-2013, 06:58 AM Thread Starter
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Um...maybe a year, possibly 15 or 16 months after going down at about 35 miles per hour on a sweeper, speed was not excessive but sand will do that. I suffered much more than the bike did and at 60, things just don't heal as fast. Other than a couple of times in the rain, the only time I have gone down in 40 years on all kinds and sizes of bikes. Certainly took the wind out of my sails. Anyway, old gas and fresh battery and it fired right up. I have stuck with 87 octane/10% as the bike has always run fine with it.

It looks like you would not have any qualms buying a used pump? I'll be riding the bike pretty regularly so maybe I will invest in one of those used pumps and have it ready for if and/or when I need it. I MUST get a new seat though - my biggest beef with the bike by far and possibly the worst seat I have ever sat on on any motorcycle I have owned. Also need to find some lower pegs. I would love 2" lower but I guess I would have to settle for the 1.3" I see mentioned in a few places? Perhaps a newer higher seat and the peg issue might not be so bad. I find the bike cramped as is but probably because I have never found crotch rockets atractive.
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-07-2013, 04:32 PM
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I would get one of those pumps if I needed one, but I don't because I use good gas in my 2007 . You can do the seat front mount raise mod which helps. I love my Seat Concepts seat. I do sit a tad higher and back on it. Very comfortable with Moto Werks footpeg lowering blocks.

Last edited by invader; 02-07-2013 at 07:33 PM.
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-08-2013, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLAFFA View Post
Update time. She's a running and purring like a kitten as of a couple of hours ago hour ago. CONTRARY to what the service manual says the pump CAN be..."tinkered with" which is basically what I did after pricing new pumps at about 220. Had nothing to lose. So for anyone with a fuel related issue...

After draining tank and removing pump yet again, I removed the three screws holding the plastic body to the mounting flange. Just 3 philips screws but boy were they tight! The plastic "cage" is what holds the motor in. The filter itself does seem to be attached in such a way that the only way to get it off is to break it off. The mesh screen is obvious, what isn't so obvious is that it [mine at least] appears to be filled with charcoal! wtf? Anyone else notice it on their own filters or anyone purchase/install a new pump? Anyway, I reconnected the two small leads that go to motor [red to positive] and then placed both the pump and the flange with the little doohicky thing at the opposite end [have no idea what it does] into a clean plastic container filled with gas. A 40 OZ peanut butter jar was perfect. Pump motor was upside down with discharge end up. Flange/mount was placed opposite of being in gas tank. A five gallon upside down bucket sitting next to bike was the perfect height to set the jar next to the bike and plug pump back into the electrical connector. The pressure regulator is not on the pump at this time of course. I attached a 2 foot piece of clear plastic tubing to the discharge end of pump. First turn of the key and the motor jumps from the torque but no liquid. Clearly the motor is not locked up. Same results with two or three more turns of the key. On about the fifth try, I see just a tiny bit of liquid in tube and just a bit more with each successive try. On maybe the 10th try it is now pumping at the prescribed 60 mil or greater per key turn BUT what it is pumping is quite black despite the fact it is sitting in clean gasoline. It's obviously pumping whatever it is IN the filter. Finally the gas runs clear. Filter still looks black. I reassemble the pump, and have the bike put back together in 15 minutes minus all those coverings. It fires immediately and purrs like a kitten. Cold idle about 1200 before dropping to around 900 warm like it has always been. I adjust it up to 1300. It runs perfectly for a short 5 minute ride. Lucky for me, I live close to work and seldom take any trips so I'll wait and see if/how long it lasts. Any more trouble and I will simply replace it.

I DID do some "light tapping" on both the regulator and the motor after disasembling. Not sure if that helped any. The regulator "shell" has a tab on each side that appears to lock the shell to the regulator body but I gave up after 5 minutes.

I'm wary of purchasing anything electrical used. Anyone done so and been satisfied?
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