ECU'S / Flashing & Tuning / Versys 650 / Complete - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-02-2018, 11:44 AM Thread Starter
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ECU'S / Flashing & Tuning / Versys 650 / Complete

Original research and start up of Flashing , in a restricted forum and closed thread;https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...-complete.html




Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkerjet View Post
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought I read that the cam was changed in the 2015. This changed the power to more like the Ninja 650 with power concentrated more in the upper revs.

Either way I am sure Steve's flash will make a great bike even better. Just like he did with the Connie 14.

Price wise Steve told me that the V-650 flash would not be as expensive as the flash for the Connie 14. He said that tweaking the V-650 ECU was much less labor intensive than the Connie was. I think the flash for the Connie was around $400.

During my research, I had read this also. I cross reff'ed the part #'s and indeed, they are different. But then I looked at dyno charts, where they peak, etc, and it was apparent that there might be small changes to the lobes or overlap, but apparently minor. Minor enough that I didn't see a mechanical reason for the 15-up's to be so flat below 5k, so it was probably tuning. Well, that's correct... it's tuning.

While I did gain some peak hp , Kawasaki did a very good job there. Where I'm concentrating the bulk of my effort really in in part throttle ridability, particularly from 2-5 k. I feel I've made meaningful changes there. I can now go out for a ride and never exceed 5k, whereas before I was almost always over 5k. I tended to ride much more aggressively on the stock tune because the low rpms were so vacant. Now I find myself riding at lower rpms comfortably, so a more relaxed ride.

I'm on the tail end of the tune now, just trying some experiments to see if there's anything else I can exploit. Because I think most folks with smaller bikes aren't as performance oriented as those with larger bikes, I expect I'm going to have to stimulate sales with attractive pricing. There might be a hint there.

Steve

Last edited by onewizard; 05-04-2019 at 01:14 PM.
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post #2 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-05-2018, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangles View Post

Some of my only complaints with the bike/engine so far are:

-The on/off low throttle response
-<4000RPM chuggalugging
-The knowledge that the engine is running leaner than optimal

Yes! This is what I was trying to explain! That "chuggalugging". Although I don't feel like my Versys does this bad enough to scrap the bike it does present itself. Steve's flash totally cleans this up! That's one of the first major changes I noticed and responded positively to!
Throughout my ride I SWEAR I kept thinking how cool it was that this chuggaluggling was absent when I was riding with the flashed bike. For me to notice that, as a layman rider, has to tell you something. On Steve's bike the chuggalugging was present at about 3200 rpm and less. As soon as you hit 3200 rpm it went away...in any gear! And at this point is where what I'd like to refer to as that "grunt", the feeling of power at your wrist was most prevalent.

I hit some 90 degree turns and tried using the higher gears (going about 30 - 35 mph) and I can tell you, I could go through the turn in 6th and come out OK. I preferred to be in 5th through these turns but the flashed bike made it so that I wasn't worried about losing power coming out of the turn as opposed to my stock bike where I'd generally want to drop down to 3rd, or at least 4th gear.

At the same time, I'd hit a few turns in my "normal" gearing and the RPM's weren't too high either. Sure there was a little more power from the flashed bike in lower gear because that's just the physics of it all but my point is, I wasn't worried about being in a higher gear and having to quickly downshift 2 or 3 gears. I know we've all done that, where you're in a turn and you realize that you're up too high in gear, so you jump down a gear...only to realize you need to jump down another gear. Steve's flash, IMO, cleans this up.

To sum it up best I'd say the flash makes the Versys 20% "tighter". WTBS, I don't know if it's "physics-cally" possible to make it any tighter but Steve said he still wants to analyze some numbers. This is also what I meant in my review about those who think a flash should make a 650cc into a 1000cc...it's just not "physics-cally" possible no matter who's flash you're using!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkerjet View Post
Thanks Dan for the informative write up. I have been patiently waiting for Steve's flash to be available since last year. Your experience has wetted my whistle.

Hopefully I can get it by this fall which is my favorite riding season.

You're welcome, although I apologize for not being more articulate and being so long-winded! Hopefully I explained enough for you more mechanical/technical people to understand.
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post #3 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-12-2018, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
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I'm just going to approach this as trying to dispell myth's and educate some folks. I see threads on the net all the time frought with misconceptions. There's one currently going on this board like that. So rather than me just writing, how about y'all ask questions you may have, and I'll answer to the best of my ability. Generally the answer will lead to more questions, so this should be fun. Steve
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post #4 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-12-2018, 08:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duffy View Post
Well, I'm not an expert or specialist at anything but I do understand electronics more than most (24 years of working with trons in the USN). The only question I have about the 650 ECU flash is when will it show up as "available" on the Suoudaben web site...........is this a "legal" question to ask?
Well, I guess the question is "legal" but the answer isn't. I'm not trying to advertise nor direct anyone to my site. I'm really just trying to answer Q's folks have. some might want compare a booster plug to ECU tuning... others might want to compare power commanders to ECU tuning. Other yet might not know what flashing is, or why tuning matters. That's what I'm trying to do on this thread. Answer Q's, dispell myths. Let's all learn something. Trust me, I learn from y'all, too. Steve
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post #5 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-12-2018, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKev View Post
What can be reasonably expected from a flashed ecu? If the rest of the powertrain is stock, what can be done? I think the community here really likes the Gen 3 but I find that my 2017 has a snatchy throttle. Open/closed throttle is abrupt and at low speeds makes it hard to ride smoothly. What causes this? Can it be corrected with a flash?
How much power can be uncorked? How much does it cost in fuel economy? What other behaviours are controlled by the ecu?
These are all questions I would have for someone whose speciality is ’ecu’.

Cheers!
What can reasonably be expected? That depends on how good or bad the factory tune is. Kawasaki went back on the 2015,-up, changed some stuff, and advertised a 5 hp gain. That doesn't leave room for huge gains in peak power. I think folks need to start looking more at rideability and useful gains in the rpm range you actually ride in. Case in point... the typical dyno run only measures WOT power. it has nothing to do with any other part of the throttle. So if you ride at WOT alot... then a typical dyno run is relevant... if you don't ride on WOT much, then it's not much information.

As far as low speed operation... this ecu isn't particularly advanced, and the low speed tuning isn't targeted well, like other ECU's. That makes tuning the low throttle a real challenge. This is where timing and fueling really need to be explored, and the bike needs to tell the tuner what works. And well, the tuner needs to interpret what the bike is telling him, too. Sometimes that's not easy. I constantly have to develop "experiments" to find out "what happens if". The tuner might think something is going to work, and it doesn't. So you need to be flexible and pay attention. Tuning can help limit or totally get rid of the snatchy throttle. A well sorted tune will have addressed this. But remember, you're always going to be working within the parameters of the ecu and the input controls. And BTW, having the throttle cables properly adjust is a MUST for smooth low throttle control. Remember, YOU are also an input control.

Fuel economy is probably one of the most misunderstood aspects of good tuning. Most folks thin tuning mean worse fuel ecomomy. actually, the opposite is true. good tuning will get better fuel economy. Of course if you're always hammering the throttle because now it's more fun, well, your right hand is the economy killer, not the tune.
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post #6 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 07:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoaringTodd View Post
What is the difference between an ECU reflash and installing a powercommander?

A power commander goes in line, and changes the message the injectors see, and in most cases only works on the throttle position sensor. If you wanted to add fuel, it would change the message between the ecu and the injectors to reflect a certain percentage of change. It's not very granular, in that the throttle positions are depicted as 2-10 -20 - 40 % etc. Big jumps .

Remember that power commanders only work on the throttle position sensor map. The problem here is that low throttle and deceleration is controlled by a different fuel map, called the intake pressure map. Power commanders don't influence this map, but the can screw up the injector signal coming from this map, thinking it's coming from the TPS map. That's why alot of power commander guys have flat spots and holes in light throttle.

Flashing is actually changing the base maps in the ECU. It's a re-write of the base values. The ECU maps for fuel are very very granular. there are hundreds of cells for each map. Often the jumps between are within 2* throttle rotation from each other. This applies to the TPS maps as well as the IAP map. There are also a bunch of other maps available, such as secondary throttle control, timing, injector timing, ignition dwell, etc. Plus once in the ECU we can control limiters, change rev limiters, change fan on/off temps, and shut off systems if necessary.
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post #7 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-15-2018, 08:26 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKev View Post
Ok! NOW you’re talking!
What is ‘secondary throttle mapping’? I have enough problem controlling the one I know about!
‘Too much low throttle timing’ means that fueling is too abrupt on throttle opening? Or am I oversimplifying. Something I’ve become very good at over the years out of necessity.

Sorry for the simple questions but the language you speak is ‘ecu’. I hardly manage English.

This stuff fascinates, BTW.

Oh! Another rumour I’ve heard: Are the 2018 maps the same as the 2017 maps? I read somewhere that they have been tweaked to improve the throttle. Any truth to that?

Thanks for your time.
Secondary throttles - in the throttle bodies, there are 2 sets of throttle plates. the primary throttle is the one we open by turning the grip, and it's relayed through the cables. The second set, upstream in the position most older mechanics would identify as a "choke plate" is the secondary throttles. These are controlled by the ECU, and are moved by an electronic stepper motor. The ECU map completely controls these, based on the primary throttle input. The secondaries are often used to restrict power by the factory. I take another approach with the secondaries, I use them to smooth the power and increase fuel economy potential in areas where power isn't being demanded. On certain bikes, there can be a lot of power available by de-restricting the secondaries. A good secondary map is hard to make, but it definitely will contribute to overall rideability.

Timing refers to ignition timing, it has nothing to do with fuel.

2017 and 2018 ECU's that I've seen are exactly the same. They are smoother than the earlier models mostly because there are many more fuel cells, so the fueling is more closely controlled, not big steps that lead to the complaints folks have of the earlier models. That also makes tuning that much more difficult... addressing all those cells.

Steve
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post #8 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-02-2018, 06:20 PM
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250 KM/ 4-11'C/ Amazing

Pretty tired, woke up at 6AM , made a big breakfast and waited until 10AM , wet messy leaf covered roads, overcast, got to Aylmer , bright sunshine and not a cloud in the sky and 11'C, the next 3 hours it stayed like that
So several surprises, first one was I normally am in 2nd or 3rd when in the city speed limit of 60 KM/HR, well not anymore, , @ 3000 RPM in 6th @60 KM/HR. I was following a pickup across 3 sets of railway tracks, had sufficient distance ( so I thought) however I wasn't expecting the guy to stop on the tracks ( obviously had bad or no shocks), so to my surprise I needed to brake more and lost my extra space , of about 3 seconds, what surprised me was, in this situation I would need to rapidly downshift or come to a complete stop and put my foot down****that didn't happen , in fact I just had enough speed to keep upright, when I let the clutch out, and my turn to cross the tracks, the RPM was around 1700 RPM, I had absolutely no trouble accelerating , as it turned out I was in 4th gear . Second surprise was when I got onto the highway and was able to accelerate in 6th gear from 3000 RPM at 60 KM/HR up to 90 KM/HR, no hesitation and absolutely smooth**** yup that was on my face.
I think the KM/L will be less than before, as I left with a full tank and had 1 bar left when I got home, 250 KM traveled, however I had high winds to deal with and my engine ran at 187'F , to get a accurate KM/L will take more riding in normal 20'C temperatures, and keep in mind, the improvement in the below 4000 RPM was the goal here. So it is going to take me several long rides to get use to the shifting pattern, well actually you can just put it in 6th gear at 50 KM/HR and accelerate from there, in fact I went through several communities with a reduced speed limit, before the flash I would drop down to 3rd gear when entering 60 KM/HR, now I just keep my feet up on the highway pegs and leave it in 6th. So it is like a different bike!!
I am sure I missed something but there you go.


FYI I mentioned KM/L , at 4 to 11'C the air temperature sensor is going to be adding extra fuel, I am fully aware of that, , hard to wipe the off my face even 2 days later, FYI it is common to have different energy in 87 octane, one Shell or Esso , whatever , I have noticed this on long rides when I have refueled 3 times, all the same day and within a few degrees and same wind etc.my longest ride was close to 1000 KM with a late morning start, all mainly HWY miles, as I said, I need to wait for 20'C weather for a true KM/L and I fully expect to see a improvement over stock, Steve said the same thing.
So watch for a post in 2019 on this.For those not sure, I can say after owning a 07 Versys and doing the Invader TPS adjustment, the 2015 with the reflash is superior now in the low RPM area , in fact overall engine performance is superior.

Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2018 at 12:56 PM.
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post #9 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-03-2018, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Just Doug View Post
Maybe I'm dense, but it's been difficult to follow this topic due to threads being moved and 2nd-hand conversations, etc. :^) Is there a website or contact info for this wizard who works wonders with the ECU?
No second hand conversations in this thread, in fact this conversation started over a year ago when Steve in Sunny Florida joined this forum.
What you are looking for is here https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...er-forums.html

FYI I started the links for parts suppliers as many join this forum for feedback on farkles added by other members, nothing like having someone else take the chance and try a product and give a positive review, we have all had negative experiences and wish someone else had posted something, saving us $$$$ and the time invested in installing the POS. The problem with allowing links to other sites being posted in threads like this one, or any thread, most sites have sponsors and make a profit by having people view their site. As a example I am a member of Advrider , at one time we had members redirecting to posts in another forum like this one, that takes traffic away from this site, as members it is free for all of us, we don't want to spoil a good thing.
A second reason for having links in https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...er-forums.html many times a post is made and then it gets lost, when possible I update the links as I come across them, when I say update, the link originally posted gets moved to the How To Forum "Sticky" "Parts Suppliers " and this link gets placed https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...er-forums.html with a reference in this case see flash versys 650 2015 2016

I have a title at the top https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...er-forums.html
about not posting in any other forum, heed that warning, this stems from service manuals were Kawasaki threatened legal action to other forums for distributing PDF manuals.
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post #10 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-04-2018, 11:59 AM
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ECU'S / Flashing & Tuning / Versys 650 / Complete

Apparently some aren't as technically inclined enough to find the thread, I prefer to keep all discussions in https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...-complete.html
The main reason is copyright protection, only member's can access it, no search spiders. As a mod, any typical day or night there are search bots trying to access info on this forum, today over 25 , easy to spot ! X. at the bottom of view who is online a explanation of these symbols, not sure if only us mods can see, but will use TestACC and post.

So I prefer that questions get posted in https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...-complete.html
However both this thread and Members only are stuck. I copied a few posts from the https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...-complete.html

Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2018 at 12:29 PM.
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post #11 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-04-2018, 12:38 PM
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Not visible to the regular member , however some are displayed Google AdSense Spider as a example.
So now I learned something new using TestACC , only admin. and super mods can see truly what is going on with forum access.
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post #12 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-04-2018, 12:41 PM
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ECU'S / Flashing & Tuning / Versys 650 / Complete

Active discussion thread;

https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...-complete.html

FYI for those wishing to be on a notification list and not even have to look for a new post, and have a very easy find, to topics that interest you this is a How To Do it. At the top of each page you will see
Thread Tools while at the thread click on that and select Subscribe to this Thread



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Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2018 at 03:29 PM.
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post #13 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-06-2018, 10:04 AM
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Oh No Cabin Fever Setting In ??

Seems like silence on the forum, not sure if the sticky is too complicated.
I can say in a week I intend to follow up with the scope waveform comparison / fluke meter volts AC on both the CompuFire and the Polaris 4016868. The new flash for the 2015 650 is a welcome change, I now may need to install the after market POS gear indicator I bought for my 07, as I need to relearn the RPM/ to KM/HR gear position, as I have never needed to know what gear I am in at 3000 RPM and 60 KM/HR ( 6th).
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post #14 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-06-2018, 11:14 PM
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Which sticky? There must be thousands of them on this forum. Hard to find the active threads for all the sticky threads in the way.
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post #15 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-07-2018, 11:48 AM
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I noticed that too, may need to do some thinking and cleaning up, maybe combine the help threads with a list in the subject line.
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post #16 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-09-2018, 12:22 PM
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V650 General Sticky Update

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Originally Posted by 16VGTIDave View Post
Which sticky? There must be thousands of them on this forum. Hard to find the active threads for all the sticky threads in the way.
Thanks for the vote of confidence Dave Have a look at the V650 General Stickies. One forum at a time. Thanks to your comment I have come up with a faster method of saving valuable posts.
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post #17 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-09-2018, 06:35 PM
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I have no idea...

... if this is the right place to ask this.
Do you have an ETA for the 2017 flash? I know the website says ‘soon’ but does that mean 3 months? A year? I would love to have this before my riding season starts in March(hopefully!). Mother Nature sure can be a fickle Mistress.
Love what I’m hearing from the satisfied users of the 2015-16 flash.
Cheers and Happy Holidays!
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post #18 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-10-2018, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKev View Post
... if this is the right place to ask this.
Do you have an ETA for the 2017 flash? I know the website says ‘soon’ but does that mean 3 months? A year? I would love to have this before my riding season starts in March(hopefully!). Mother Nature sure can be a fickle Mistress.
Love what I’m hearing from the satisfied users of the 2015-16 flash.
Cheers and Happy Holidays!
The flash is now on the market. I really like what it did to my '15.

Shoodaben Engineering.

Disclaimer:

I've known Steve for over 12 years and have been a customer of his since the carburetor days and now know him as a friend. We spent two days fine tuning the final product. And it rawks.

Yeah, if you want true ram air tuning, you better be willing to ram some air! (SteveinSunnyFlorida)

'15 KLE650LT
'99 Concours(with 234,xxx miles on it), sold
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And most of Canada too, eh?
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post #19 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-10-2018, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKev View Post
... if this is the right place to ask this.
Do you have an ETA for the 2017 flash? I know the website says ‘soon’ but does that mean 3 months? A year? I would love to have this before my riding season starts in March(hopefully!). Mother Nature sure can be a fickle Mistress.
Love what I’m hearing from the satisfied users of the 2015-16 flash.
Cheers and Happy Holidays!
I was up your way in October , come spring if you are still sitting on the fence we can T up, let me say after owning a 07 and changing to a 16 tooth, then owning the 2015 yes that was on my face at 10,000 KM on the 15, last week my returned
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post #20 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-10-2018, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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No current ETA on the 2017 because Kawasaki used a few different ECU's and I haven't been able to locate all of them to determine compatability.
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