Switching to synthetic oil - Page 2 - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-05-2018, 09:13 AM
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MOTOR OIL ENGINEERING TEST DATA

Diesel Oil

… The average value for Thermal Breakdown among the conventional Diesel oils here, was 255*, which is 17* LOWER than among the conventional gas engine oils I’ve tested.

The average value for Thermal Breakdown among the synthetic Diesel oils here, was 267*, which is 15* LOWER than among the synthetic gas engine oils I’ve tested.

And as you can see with these Diesel oils above, zinc levels alone do NOT establish their wear prevention ranking. The zinc levels are randomly up and down, relative to the ranking order. So, zinc levels clearly have NOTHING to do with an oil’s protection capability or ranking order. Also, anyone who has followed my motor oil testing, probably noticed that these Diesel oil “Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” psi values are rather low, with an average value for the whole group of only 72,408 psi. This number would put an oil for gasoline engines, only in the MODEST PROTECTION category (60,000 to 75,000 psi).

Obviously since all these diesel oil numbers are so closely clustered together with only about a 20,000 psi range (compared to the gas engine oil numbers which have a much larger range of almost 60,000 psi), it is clear that the oil companies intentionally formulated them to be in this general range.

Diesel engines of this type are made very rugged and very durable for the long haul. And in order to accomplish that, the engine’s components are designed and sized to keep the part loading at a modest level. And of course, these engines are known primarily for their impressive low end torque under boost, but NOT for their high rpm HP. All that being the case, these oils don’t need to have a higher capability. And this type of Diesel engine typically takes a LOT OF OIL. So, cost becomes a real factor when changing oil. This means that no oil company is going to make their products way better than needed, because that would make their products too expensive to be competitive in the marketplace.


RECOMMENDATION FOR MOTORCYCLES:

Most motorcycle engines:

• Make far more power per cubic inch, than car engines.

• Rev far higher than car engines.




• Share the same oil for both the engine and transmission (which subjects the oil to considerably more mechanical shearing).

• Have wet clutches that also share the engine oil.

• Often get run much harder than most car engines.

So, most motorcycle engines are far harder on their motor oil than normal daily driven automobile engines are, which results in semi-severe usage, to severe usage of their motor oil. Therefore, I recommend the following to provide the best protection:

• Do NOT follow the ridiculously long 8,000 mile oil change interval typically found in motorcycle street bike Owner’s Manuals. That outrageously long interval is Marketing driven only to reduce Cost of Ownership numbers. It is NOT what is best for the engine, and was NOT driven by Engineering.

• For liquid cooled street motorcycles, use the range: 3,000 mile oil change interval if operated aggressively, up to a 4,000 mile oil change interval if operated modestly.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
The Rat man really knows his stuff regarding oils. If you really want to understand the in's and out's of oil read his stuff. It's very comprehensive and lengthy but you will be rewarded with true knowledge regarding all things oil.

I believe consulting with some top tier Nascar teams is included in his resume. Those folks don't reach out to just anyone.

Cookin Wid Gas

2015 V-650 of course it's green...it's a Kazawalski.
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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-05-2018, 11:59 AM
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I think a telling thing to do would be to get the drain oil analyzed. I did this several times on a c-10 Connie with just short of 200k miles on it at the time.

Running Rotella syn the report from Blackstone Labs suggested extending out to 8k mile drain intervals as the oil could take it and wear metals and other contaminants were quite low.

I'm a firm believer in factual results from a lab versus the marketing whiz boys and girls.

Without having delved into all of the oil technical writings I firmly believe an analysis of used oil tells one all that is needed to know about how different oils perform in the real world.

Skol.

Yeah, if you want true ram air tuning, you better be willing to ram some air! (SteveinSunnyFlorida)

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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-05-2018, 12:40 PM
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I think a telling thing to do would be to get the drain oil analyzed. I did this several times on a c-10 Connie with just short of 200k miles on it at the time.

Running Rotella syn the report from Blackstone Labs suggested extending out to 8k mile drain intervals as the oil could take it and wear metals and other contaminants were quite low.

I'm a firm believer in factual results from a lab versus the marketing whiz boys and girls.

Without having delved into all of the oil technical writings I firmly believe an analysis of used oil tells one all that is needed to know about how different oils perform in the real world.

Skol.
You fail to provide a UOA comparison between Rotella T6 and non-diesel oils in your specific application, as well as the subjected operating conditions... At any rate, the 1999 Concours' mild tuned 997 cc engine (3.9 US quarts total oil capacity) always was extremely reliable and durable by nature.

Last edited by invader; 12-05-2018 at 12:50 PM.
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-05-2018, 02:02 PM
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25. Recommended Oil Change Interval – For Automobiles “AND” Motorcycles, including Motor Oil Age Info

I normally don’t mention anything about oil change intervals, figuring that everyone can decide that for themselves. But, I’ve had a number of people contact me to ask what oil change interval they should use. So, I put together the following write-up, to address that question.
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There is quite a wide variation when it comes to recommended oil change intervals for normal daily driven street vehicles. Vehicle owners get recommendations from:
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• Quickie Oil Change places that usually call for 3,000 mile change intervals.

• Owner’s Manuals that now can often say 7,500 miles or more.

• Modern vehicle computerized dashboard oil change indicators that can vary anywhere from about 5,000 to 10,000 miles, depending on the model, brand and driving habits.

• Then there are the premium synthetic oils from mainstream Oil Companies and from Companies that only sell premium synthetic oils, who try to get you to buy their extra expensive motor oil, by saying you can use extra long oil change intervals, such as anywhere from 15,000 to 25,000 miles, or even annually.
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Trying to make sense of all those conflicting recommendations is enough to give some people a headache. So, let’s see if we can make some sense out of all this.
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• You can completely ignore the 3,000 mile oil change interval called for by the Quickie Oil Change places. There is no technical reason to change oil that often in normal daily driven street vehicles. Of course it doesn’t hurt the engine if you do, but it is simply a waste of money and resources, while increasing environmental waste, with virtually no benefit to your engine. This recommended change interval is only so those Oil Change places can make more money off the unsuspecting motoring public.

• Owner’s Manuals have been known to drastically revise their recommended oil change intervals to far longer, at a model year change, even when nothing has changed on the model involved. This happens because Auto Makers can use longer oil change intervals to claim a reduced cost of ownership, while at the same time reducing environmental waste.

But, the reality is, it does not truly mean that the same vehicle as the previous year model, with the same oil, can now magically go perhaps an extra 50% or more between oil changes. These longer intervals are driven by Corporate Business decisions, not by Engineering decisions. It has gotten so ridiculous with some vehicles, that you are better off to ignore the overly long oil change intervals that are now commonly printed in Owner’s Manuals.
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• It is fairly common for the computerized dashboard oil change indicators in modern vehicles to not match the vehicle’s own Owner’s Manual. Of course the Owner’s Manual numbers are an overall approximation of driving conditions and driving habits, where the computerized dashboard indicator takes into account engine temp, throttle opening, rpm, etc, etc. So, some people might assume that the computer is more precise than the Manual. But, don’t believe it, because the computer is programmed for extra long oil change intervals for the same reasons as the extra long oil change intervals printed in the Manuals.

I have a late model daily driver vehicle myself, with a computer oil change indicator that shows that I should go “TWICE” as long between oil changes, compared to my previous similar model from the same maker, which was only a few years older, all while they both were driven exactly the same. And of course the computer doesn’t know if I’m using cheapo discount conventional motor oil or very expensive premium synthetic oil, labeled as extended change interval motor oil. So, once again, you are better off to ignore the overly long oil change intervals that are now commonly indicated by the computer.

• Then we have the premium synthetic oils from mainstream Oil Companies, as well as from Oil Companies that only sell premium synthetic oils. And retail prices on those premium oils tend to be so high that their sales are weak in the marketplace. So, those Companies devised a Marketing strategy which advertises that their oils are so good that buyers can use far longer change intervals, such as anywhere from 15,000 to 25,000 miles, or even annually. Their idea is, since customers can buy their oil less often, that it will offset the super high cost of the oil, in an attempt to convince the general public that the high price is justifiable. All in hopes of increasing sales and profits. But of course, Marketing/Advertising being what it is, they leave out the dirty little secret that, no matter how good any oil is, or how much it costs, it will still get extremely dirty and contaminated, thus needing changing, WAY, WAY BEFORE that many miles. More on that below.

Now we’ve seen that all the various recommendations above have only the interests of others in mind, rather than your best interest or your engine’s best interest in mind. Therefore, it is best not follow those oil change interval recommendations, if you really care about doing what’s best for your wallet and for your engine. So then, what oil change interval should we use?
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I’ll answer that by telling you the oil change intervals I’ve used in normal daily driven street vehicles for years, why I do it, and why I recommend others do the same. Then you can decide for yourself.
.
————–
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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-05-2018, 02:02 PM
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I use a 5,000 mile oil change interval in my own normal daily driven street vehicles. This interval is long enough that it lets you get your money’s worth from the cost of the oil change without causing any negative impact to an engine. Changing oil much sooner than that, obviously does not hurt engine, but you’d be throwing money away for no reason, since shorter intervals provide no benefit to an engine.
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I’ve sent a number of quality used oils with 5,000 miles on them, to a motor oil Lab for component quantity testing, to see how much the additive package components had been depleted during that interval. Here’s what I found, on average, for that group of oils:
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• The overall anti-wear package component levels had dropped by about 24%
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• The detergent level dropped by about 9%
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• And the TBN (acid neutralizer) dropped by a significant 51%
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The reason so much of the additive package was still available in the used oils I had tested, was because those oils were subjected to only normal daily driving. And additive package component quantities are typically high enough to begin with, so that they won’t be totally depleted prematurely by severe/extreme usage, such as racing, heavy loading, towing, mountainous or off/road operation, extended idling, mostly short trip operation, or extended hot or cold operation, that could take place, where the additive package would be used up at a faster pace.
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I also “wear tested” those used oils myself, and found that there was no loss of wear protection, even though the zinc/phos (ZDDP) level in particular, had dropped by about 25%. And that is clear proof that ZDDP levels DO NOT determine wear protection capability.

Additive package component quantity depletion, as mileage accumulates on the oil, is normal. The various components are used up as they do their job. And after 5,000 miles of normal daily driving, there was still plenty of additive package remaining in the oils tested above. BUT, that absolutely does NOT mean that you should keep using motor oil until those components are completely exhausted. Here’s why.
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One of the primary reasons your oil gets dirty, is because of combustion by-products getting past the rings from blow-by, and entering the crankcase into your oil. And this has nothing to do with how high tech the engine may be, or how good or how expensive an oil might be. This happens to ALL motor oils in all engines. And oil filters CANNOT filter out this contamination from the oil, no matter how good some filters may be. Because oil filters only filter out particulate matter. Filthy contaminated dirty oil will flow right through any oil filter. So, continuing to run filthy dirty contaminated oil in your engine, would be like using the same filthy dirty contaminated bath water for months, and months, and months. You could physically do that, but you would never be clean. The same thing applies to your engine.
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In addition to this, small amounts of fuel also get past the rings, particularly during cold start-up and during initial warm-up, when the engine is running extra rich with fuel. This fuel slowly dilutes your oil, again no matter how good the oil is, or how much it costs. So, this is another important reason to use reasonable oil change intervals, rather than extended change intervals.
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And if filthy dirty contaminated diluted oil isn’t a good enough reason to avoid using extended oil change intervals, consider the following. Every motor oil is different, so it would be very difficult to establish a general oil change guideline to use, to get closer to the limit of total component quantity depletion, that would be safe to use for every motor oil, without going too long on certain oils and run the risk of totally depleting those critical additives. And if an oil is subjected to severe/extreme usage, then it makes this issue even worse.
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And to further complicate things, even motor oils that are marketed as extended change interval motor oils, don’t all follow the same plan for the amount of extra additive package quantity put in an oil, which might allow you to even consider going longer. If you look at ” Section 4 – Motor Oil component quantity Lab Test results”, in my Blog, you will see that some name brand motor oils have extra additive package component quantities in their oils marketed as extended change interval oils. But, other name brand oils marketed as extended change interval oils, only have normal change interval additive package component quantities. And the normal change interval oils they sell, actually have below average quantities of additive package components.
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So, the only way you could ever safely consider running motor oils longer than reasonable (if you don’t care enough about your engine to consider the filthy dirty contaminated diluted oil aspect), whether the oils are marketed as extended change interval oils or not, is to take a small sample of the oil being used, and send it into a motor oil Lab for component quantity testing every few thousand miles, after you’ve reached a normal change interval mileage. That way you could make sure you don’t ever run completely out of critical additive package components. But, of course that is simply way too much trouble for most people to ever bother with.
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And if all that isn’t bad enough, remember that motor oil also deteriorates any time it reaches its onset of thermal breakdown point. And that thermal breakdown point varies widely from oil to oil, with many oils reaching that point as low as 250*F. Oil temps are not the same everywhere inside a running engine. Typical main bearing oil temps can be 55*-90*F higher than sump temps. So, oil temp gauges installed in an oil pan can give a false sense of what max oil temps actually are inside an engine. And once any oil, conventional or synthetic, has reached its onset of thermal breakdown point, the lighter oil fractions will begin to vaporize, leaving thicker and heavier oil. This will over time, contribute to poor circulation, reduced fuel economy, increased oil consumption, increased wear and increased emissions. So, with extended oil change intervals, you need to consider that most oils have also been deteriorating from exposure to temps that have exceeded its thermal breakdown point.
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Are we done looking at all the bad things about using extended drain intervals? Not yet. Many multi-viscosity motor oils, particularly conventional oils, use viscosity modifiers/improvers to reduce how much they thin out as their temperature increases. Unfortunately, viscosity modifiers/improvers break down when exposed to heat and mechanical shearing, thus reducing the oil’s viscosity as mileage accumulates. So, oils that use a lot of viscosity improvers, should not be used for extended change intervals. However, true synthetic oils are typically Engineered to meet multi-viscosity requirements without viscosity modifiers/improvers. So, those synthetics do have an advantage over other synthetics and conventional oils in that regard. But, for those synthetics having this one advantage, it does not cancel out all the other problems that every oil has regarding extended change intervals.
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In addition to that, when using extended oil change intervals, wear accumulations and insolubles that are too small to be filtered out, can build up in the oil and become abrasive. Of course the only thing you can do about that, is to change the oil.
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And finally, to add insult to injury, extended oil change intervals have resulted in excessive sludge build-up, which can destroy engines, if it gets bad enough. Some years back, wide spread engine sludge problems cost Toyota millions and millions of dollars, to replace a huge number of engines in Toyota and Lexus vehicles. And their sludge problem was traced to, you guessed it, their recommended unusually long oil change intervals.
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Therefore, there is absolutely NO technical benefit what so ever, to using extended oil change intervals. All of the above, points out that extended oil change intervals make no sense at all, because only bad things are very likely to happen.

*******

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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-05-2018, 08:45 PM
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You fail to provide a UOA comparison between Rotella T6 and non-diesel oils in your specific application, as well as the subjected operating conditions... At any rate, the 1999 Concours' mild tuned 997 cc engine (3.9 US quarts total oil capacity) always was extremely reliable and durable by nature.
The purpose of the OA was not to compare different oils but to make sure I was OK with the oil I was using for the conditions that I rode in and the length of drain intervals.

The bike was used year round for commuting in FL. I would take a few trips to north GA and one 5-6k mile trip per year. While in the mountains I used all of the rpm range extensively, it was not babied.

Both before and after doing the OA my drain intervals were around 5-6k miles. I liked having a bit of a cushion.

That bike went on to put on over a quarter million miles but an unfortunate accident has caused it to meet it's demise.

In summary, I'm quite content with how the bike was maintained. And in the 214k miles that I owned it, it never left me standing at the side of the road. It was tough letting it go to a new owner. That bike and I saw 49 states and all Canadian provinces and territories except NWT and NL. I'm not sure on Nunavut. I was told that by riding beyond the high tide mark at James Bay near Chisasibi, I was officially in Nunavut.

Skol!
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And most of Canada too, eh?
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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 09:29 PM
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I use mobile 1 in my other bike and plan to use it in my newly acquired 08 Versys...
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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 05:58 PM
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I use mobile 1 in my other bike and plan to use it in my newly acquired 08 Versys...
The is no 'mobile 1', not even in Mobile Alabama dammed to hell.

I hope you mean Mobil 1 Racing™ 4T 10W-40 motorcycle oil?

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/m...motorcycle-oil

Last edited by invader; 02-07-2019 at 09:14 PM.
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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 11:23 PM
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Yep, damn spell check....MOBIL. That's my story and I'm stickin to it....
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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 01:13 AM
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Red Line Motorcycle Oil, Maxima Extra/530RR, Bel-Ray EXS 4T, and Motul 7100 4T are your top of the line Ester based Group V synthetics... Bel-Ray EXP 4T, Maxima Pro Plus+ and Motul 5100 4T are Ester blends.

Mobil 1 Racing 4T, Amsoil Motorcycle, Castrol Power1 4T, Valvoline Synthetic 4 Stroke, etc, are also excellent Group IV PAO based synthetic motorcycle oils... All are recommended.
I'd add Silkolene to the list of esters.
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post #31 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 02:53 PM
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I'd add Silkolene to the list of esters.
https://www.silkolene.com/motorcycle...e-engine-oils/
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