V died while riding and won't start again. Vehicle-down sensor at fault? - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-26-2018, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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V died while riding and won't start again. Vehicle-down sensor at fault?

Hi guys,

Yesterday my bike (V650 2014) died on me while riding and now it doesn't want to start again. Well it starts but cuts out after a few seconds.

I checked the fueling, ignition coils and battery. All are fine.
The only thing that influences is if I disconnect the vehicle down sensor. My fuel pump cycles longer while the sensor is disconnected and the bike runs 5 seconds when it's disconnected.
When I connect it again, the bike won't start up again.

Is the sensor at fault? Or should I look somewhere else?

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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-26-2018, 02:28 PM
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Vehicle Down Sensor

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Originally Posted by KenBCK View Post
Hi guys,

Yesterday my bike (V650 2014) died on me while riding and now it doesn't want to start again. Well it starts but cuts out after a few seconds.

I checked the fueling, ignition coils and battery. All are fine.
The only thing that influences is if I disconnect the vehicle down sensor. My fuel pump cycles longer while the sensor is disconnected and the bike runs 5 seconds when it's disconnected.
When I connect it again, the bike won't start up again.

Is the sensor at fault? Or should I look somewhere else?
Best to read this older post, there is a test for this in the manual.
https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...ot-firing.html
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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
Best to read this older post, there is a test for this in the manual.
https://www.kawasakiversys.com/forum...ot-firing.html
(If you dont want to read that thread, it was the vehicle down sensor.)

And I agree it could be your case, because of the fixed delay. Vapor lock or serious fuel pump / efi issues would have variable delays, and kill swithes would have no delay.
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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 07:12 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the link, I already read it completely and tested a few things.
The voltage to the sensor is OK, but I have no way of reading the output voltage.

However when the sensor is plugged in, my fuel pump cycles 1 second and then stops when I turn my ignition on. The bike won't start with the sensor connected.

With the sensor disconnected, the fuel pump cycles 3 seconds and then the bike starts for 5 seconds and cuts out.

So should I just get a new sensor?

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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by KenBCK View Post
Thanks for the link, I already read it completely and tested a few things.
The voltage to the sensor is OK, but I have no way of reading the output voltage.

However when the sensor is plugged in, my fuel pump cycles 1 second and then stops when I turn my ignition on. The bike won't start with the sensor connected.

With the sensor disconnected, the fuel pump cycles 3 seconds and then the bike starts for 5 seconds and cuts out.

So should I just get a new sensor?
There is no out of circuit test, however I have drawn out what I think the internal connection looks like. Since you have followed 3-59 to 3-60 of the service manual, the BL ( blue) positive and BR/BK ( brown with black tracer ) negative are the input terminals and the center Y/G ( yellow with green tracer) is the output to the ECU.
Take the sensor out of the bike, it mentions not to drop it. Measure the input terminals ( outside terminals ) using a ohm meter, this measurement should be stable irregardless of what position you are holding the sensor.
Next measure from what would be the BL terminal with the sensor vertical to the center what would be the Y/G, note that reading, repeat for the BR/BK to center terminal , record your readings and post.

Since the ECU is looking for a positive 3.55 to 4.45 VDC input, you could try using a 100,000 ohm resistor between the BL and Y/G , try starting the bike and see if it runs for more than 5 seconds ( FYI you do this at your own risk and if it works you need to replace the sensor).
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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
There is no out of circuit test, however I have drawn out what I think the internal connection looks like. Since you have followed 3-59 to 3-60 of the service manual, the BL ( blue) positive and BR/BK ( brown with black tracer ) negative are the input terminals and the center Y/G ( yellow with green tracer) is the output to the ECU.
Take the sensor out of the bike, it mentions not to drop it. Measure the input terminals ( outside terminals ) using a ohm meter, this measurement should be stable irregardless of what position you are holding the sensor.
Next measure from what would be the BL terminal with the sensor vertical to the center what would be the Y/G, note that reading, repeat for the BR/BK to center terminal , record your readings and post.

Since the ECU is looking for a positive 3.55 to 4.45 VDC input, you could try using a 100,000 ohm resistor between the BL and Y/G , try starting the bike and see if it runs for more than 5 seconds ( FYI you do this at your own risk and if it works you need to replace the sensor).
Thanks for the help man!

These are my readings, tested with an Ohm meter on 20k setting:
* input terminals together: 16.03 stable
* BL terminal to Y/G terminal: 13.03 , sometimes 13.02
* BR terminal to Y/G terminal: 3.02 , sometimes 3.01

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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 10:08 AM
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Thanks for the help man!

These are my readings, tested with an Ohm meter on 20k setting:
* input terminals together: 16.03 stable
* BL terminal to Y/G terminal: 13.03 , sometimes 13.02
* BR terminal to Y/G terminal: 3.02 , sometimes 3.01
If all those readings are vertical, 3.02 K ohms ? that is 3,002 Ohms. That is what the BL to Y/G should be when vertical, did you try lightly shaking side to side and retesting vertical ? At this point it appears NFG ( not for good )
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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
If all those readings are vertical, 3.02 K ohms ? that is 3,002 Ohms. That is what the BL to Y/G should be when vertical, did you try lightly shaking side to side and retesting vertical ? At this point it appears NFG ( not for good )
Sorry I mistyped. I switched BL and BR.

So readings are:

* BRterminal to Y/G terminal: 13.03 , sometimes 13.02
* BL terminal to Y/G terminal: 3.02 , sometimes 3.01

Sorry!

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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 10:32 AM
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Sorry I mistyped. I switched BL and BR.

So readings are:

* BRterminal to Y/G terminal: 13.03 , sometimes 13.02
* BL terminal to Y/G terminal: 3.02 , sometimes 3.01

Sorry!
The manual calls for a special pin probe, I have used straight pins. Years ago there was a piecing probe made by Fluke, not something I encourage but two ways of doing this, one to take a straight pin and bend it, trying to slip into those terminals and follow the manual. The second way would be to take a straight pin or needle and pierce the Y/G wire ( about 1 inch from the connector , tape up later, if concerned use silicone and tape), connect your negative to battery negative, positive to Y/G pin , key on and note voltage.

One other thing, you may need to remove the seat/ tank mounting bracket and remove & check grounds, the ECU doesn't have a wired negative ground from the battery, but depends on the steel frame, many, including myself have found a corroded connection here on my 07, this is on the foot brake side of the bike just below and to the rear of the seat/ tank mounting bracket.

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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 11:08 AM Thread Starter
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Is it the red circled ground on the first picture that u mean? Or is it located somewhere in the second picture?

Thanks in advance!



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post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 11:53 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
The manual calls for a special pin probe, I have used straight pins. Years ago there was a piecing probe made by Fluke, not something I encourage but two ways of doing this, one to take a straight pin and bend it, trying to slip into those terminals and follow the manual. The second way would be to take a straight pin or needle and pierce the Y/G wire ( about 1 inch from the connector , tape up later, if concerned use silicone and tape), connect your negative to battery negative, positive to Y/G pin , key on and note voltage.

One other thing, you may need to remove the seat/ tank mounting bracket and remove & check grounds, the ECU doesn't have a wired negative ground from the battery, but depends on the steel frame, many, including myself have found a corroded connection here on my 07, this is on the foot brake side of the bike just below and to the rear of the seat/ tank mounting bracket.

I'll try straight pin reading tonight. I'll keep you posted.

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post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
The manual calls for a special pin probe, I have used straight pins. Years ago there was a piecing probe made by Fluke, not something I encourage but two ways of doing this, one to take a straight pin and bend it, trying to slip into those terminals and follow the manual. The second way would be to take a straight pin or needle and pierce the Y/G wire ( about 1 inch from the connector , tape up later, if concerned use silicone and tape), connect your negative to battery negative, positive to Y/G pin , key on and note voltage.

One other thing, you may need to remove the seat/ tank mounting bracket and remove & check grounds, the ECU doesn't have a wired negative ground from the battery, but depends on the steel frame, many, including myself have found a corroded connection here on my 07, this is on the foot brake side of the bike just below and to the rear of the seat/ tank mounting bracket.

Just pierced Y/G wire with sensor connected. These are the voltages:
* Sensor tilted: 1.043 volt (should be 0.65 - 1.35)
* Sensor dead vertical: 1.04 volt (should be 3.55 - 4.45)

So I guess it's time to order a new sensor?
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post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 06:24 PM
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Vehicle Down Sensor / Doing it's Job

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Originally Posted by KenBCK View Post
Just pierced Y/G wire with sensor connected. These are the voltages:
* Sensor tilted: 1.043 volt (should be 0.65 - 1.35)
* Sensor dead vertical: 1.04 volt (should be 3.55 - 4.45)

So I guess it's time to order a new sensor?
Looks like the magic smoke escaped, thanks for going the extra mile. I would still check the ECU grounds, they are 18 to 20 gauge wires, approximately 2 on your model year, there may be more, I have no idea why Kawasaki uses the steel frame to power these connections. And judging by your findings you need a new one.




FYI the ground on my 2015 even new was poorly done at the seat. I scotch brited and then used a copper based anti oxide coating that I have used for years in harsh environments ( gravel pit crushing plant , any connections , including fittings that don't get coated are like welded together in 3 months , the stuff I use is a T&B product called Kopr coat https://www.specialized.net/cp8-tb-t...ound-8-oz.html Jet-Lube, LLC. | Kopr-Kote Industrial - High Temp Anti-Sieze)
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post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 07:06 PM
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When you are done replacing it, PLEASE cut open the old one and show us how it's made with many pictures!
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post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-27-2018, 09:16 PM
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When you are done replacing it, PLEASE cut open the old one and show us how it's made with many pictures!
Maybe he'll want to keep it intact as a souvenir.
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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-28-2018, 01:25 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by onewizard View Post

Looks like the magic smoke escaped, thanks for going the extra mile. I would still check the ECU grounds, they are 18 to 20 gauge wires, approximately 2 on your model year, there may be more, I have no idea why Kawasaki uses the steel frame to power these connections. And judging by your findings you need a new one.[IMG class=inlineimg]/forums/images/KawasakiVersysForum_2015/smilies/tango_face_surprise.png[/IMG]




FYI the ground on my 2015 even new was poorly done at the seat. I scotch brited and then used a copper based anti oxide coating that I have used for years in harsh environments ( gravel pit crushing plant , any connections , including fittings that don't get coated are like welded together in 3 months , the stuff I use is a T&B product called Kopr coat https://www.specialized.net/cp8-tb-t...ound-8-oz.html Jet-Lube, LLC. | Kopr-Kote Industrial - High Temp Anti-Sieze)
Is the Ecu frame ground in the first picture circled in red? Of should it be somewhere in the second picture?




Thanks!

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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-28-2018, 08:10 AM
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ECU Grounds

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Is the Ecu frame ground in the first picture circled in red? Of should it be somewhere in the second picture?




Thanks!
Looking at the photo, right side, you have the mounting bolts for the seat / tank bracket removed, just rear of the mounting bolt hole is a clear hole, if you look through that hole you should see the wires. Only way of accessing it is to use a piece of wood on either side of the rear of the gas tank, and remove the bracket, PITA to get at.

One other test I failed to have you make was to measure between the Blue and brown with black tracer while connected to the sensor, there is a remote chance the 5 volt power supply of the ECU has failed. I thought you measured the VDC of the input, however going back in the posts I couldn't find that, it should be around 5VDC while connected to the sensor. I have seen it where open circuit it shows 5 volts but under load much less.( connected to sensor it is a fixed value, far below 5 volts)
The sensor acts as a voltage divider, since whatever comes into the sensor as supply volts ,the input voltage will be equal to BR/BK & Y/G plus BL & Y/G . That is if you measured a input of 5 volts, with the sensor vertical you should get say 4 VDC at Y/G WRG ( with reference to ground) and 1 VDC from BL to Y/G. There could be a blocking diode in the output and also a fixed resistance . Since it is roughly 0.7 VDC in the manual difference, my guess is a blocking diode.

Last edited by onewizard; 07-28-2018 at 08:15 AM.
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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-28-2018, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
Looking at the photo, right side, you have the mounting bolts for the seat / tank bracket removed, just rear of the mounting bolt hole is a clear hole, if you look through that hole you should see the wires. Only way of accessing it is to use a piece of wood on either side of the rear of the gas tank, and remove the bracket, PITA to get at.

One other test I failed to have you make was to measure between the Blue and brown with black tracer while connected to the sensor, there is a remote chance the 5 volt power supply of the ECU has failed. I thought you measured the VDC of the input, however going back in the posts I couldn't find that, it should be around 5VDC while connected to the sensor. I have seen it where open circuit it shows 5 volts but under load much less.( connected to sensor it is a fixed value, far below 5 volts)
The sensor acts as a voltage divider, since whatever comes into the sensor as supply volts ,the input voltage will be equal to BR/BK & Y/G plus BL & Y/G . That is if you measured a input of 5 volts, with the sensor vertical you should get say 4 VDC at Y/G WRG ( with reference to ground) and 1 VDC from BL to Y/G. There could be a blocking diode in the output and also a fixed resistance . Since it is roughly 0.7 VDC in the manual difference, my guess is a blocking diode.
Onewizard, you truly are a wizard.

Just got a new sensor from the dealer and the bike is up and running again! 1000 times thanks for the help!
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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-28-2018, 10:00 AM Thread Starter
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Maybe he'll want to keep it intact as a souvenir.
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When you are done replacing it, PLEASE cut open the old one and show us how it's made with many pictures!
I opened it up and here are the pictures:

This is the bottom part of the sensor when you open it up. The metal 'wheel' is able to pivot as the bike leans over.




This is the inside of the top part of the sensor. It features the circuit board and a on the other side there are the 3 connectors.



Side view of the top part:



Here you can see what happens when the sensor leans over.



Then I took the 'wheel' out for a closer look. The bar in the middle is not fixed, it can slide out.



In the last picture I pulled the pin out of the 'wheel'. The two white rings are plastic spacers.



Hopefully you guys appreciate the pictures

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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-28-2018, 10:36 AM
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That's great. I think there is no resistor/tension divider here. That's a great little mechanism to prevent wear and poor shock resistance otherwise found in variable resistors.

It looks like a hall effect sensor. The dented wheel would move in front of the tiny square chip (hall sensor with transistor I guess) and turn the base on, shorting to 1v instead of the 4v.

Still seems possible to hack a "always upright" hard wired version with a 3.3kohms + 12kohms...
Unless the chip actually sends a waveform like in garage door trip light sensors, to avoid unsecure hacks...
Someone would have to put an oscilloscope to see it in action, if the hard tension divider doesn't work.

Seeing a chip there make me think that it is not simple DC electronics.
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