TPS Sensor Adjustment - 2016 Versys 650 - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-02-2018, 03:59 AM Thread Starter
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TPS Sensor Adjustment - 2016 Versys 650

Hi Guys,

Finally got around to check my TPS Sensor values last weekend.

Input Voltage
Standard: DC 4.75 ~ 5.25 V Idle Throttle Closed
Measured: 5.010

Output Voltage
Standard: DC 0.99 ∼ 1.05 V at idle throttle closed
Measured: 1.045 (very close to max spec?)

DC 4.11 ∼ 4.50 V at full throttle opening (TWO)
Measured: 4.185

Output voltage remains the same after warm-up and @1300 Idle.

I still get a lot of decel pops. Too much really. Weather is about 35C. I am at 1,000 metres above sea level.

Should I increase the output voltage to more than 1.045?
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post #2 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-02-2018, 07:46 AM
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Decel pops are typically misfires caused by a lean mixture. However, they can also be caused by air leaks into the exhaust, such as a leak at the header connection to the engine. Best to confirm there are no exhaust leaks before chasing fueling issues.

I haven't checked my TPS voltages (yet), but since installing a Thermo-Bob this past winter, the decel misfires have been virtually eliminated from my 2011. Even when riding in temps down close to freezing. It appears that the fuel injection is calibrated lean, and the cooling system keeps the engine cold rather than at operating temperature. I'm not a fan of excessively cooling an internal combustion engine as it defeats the purpose.

Adjusting the TPS voltages beyond specs may reduce the symptoms, but it won't correct the underlying problem.
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post #3 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-02-2018, 09:52 AM
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What year is your bike? Lean mixture could also be EFI related. O2 sensor?

I had a bad lean mixture problem but never decel exhaust popping with my 2015 V650. It turned out to be a vacuum leak to the intake pressure sensor. The plastic line was dried and cracked.

With your TPS readings being in spec, the exhaust popping doesn't make sense. I'd start looking elsewhere. FWIW, IMHO the wide open mixture setting for the TPS is not relevant really. We don't normally ride at full throttle! So if you enrichen the idle mixture and it cures a problem (your popping, or low rpm stumble), I wouldn't worry if the WOT mixture reads slightly out of spec.
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post #4 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-03-2018, 12:06 AM Thread Starter
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I will check if the exhaust headers are torqued right this week-end. I doubt that is the culprit. Are there any other check points to check exhaust leaks on the bike?

The intake line to the air pressure sensor is plastic? I thought it was rubber? Last I checked they looked good. I will have another look anyway. But if there is a vacuum leak, then shouldn't I have an engine check light on?

I'm not sure what else I should be looking at.

I will go up a little bit more on the output voltage and see how it runs (as long as it is within overall spec).
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post #5 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-03-2018, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red liner View Post
I will check if the exhaust headers are torqued right this week-end. I doubt that is the culprit. Are there any other check points to check exhaust leaks on the bike?

The intake line to the air pressure sensor is plastic? I thought it was rubber? Last I checked they looked good. I will have another look anyway. But if there is a vacuum leak, then shouldn't I have an engine check light on?

I'm not sure what else I should be looking at.

I will go up a little bit more on the output voltage and see how it runs (as long as it is within overall spec).
The line on my bike to the intake air pressure sensor was a thin fragile plastic! It was definitely not regular rubber vacuum line. It looked old, and my guess is the factory (or maybe the dealer?) decided to use up some old stuff they had lying around. The crack was on the back of the connection to the sensor, so the only way to see it was to dismount the sensor and look at the line. I chased that problem for a couple of months last summer. Fixing it eliminated the stumble at 2800-3200 rpm.

I never had an engine check light until it got really bad. At that point it ran so poorly I was afraid to go further from home than I could walk back.
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post #6 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-03-2018, 05:36 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fly-Sig View Post
The line on my bike to the intake air pressure sensor was a thin fragile plastic! It was definitely not regular rubber vacuum line. It looked old, and my guess is the factory (or maybe the dealer?) decided to use up some old stuff they had lying around. The crack was on the back of the connection to the sensor, so the only way to see it was to dismount the sensor and look at the line. I chased that problem for a couple of months last summer. Fixing it eliminated the stumble at 2800-3200 rpm.

I never had an engine check light until it got really bad. At that point it ran so poorly I was afraid to go further from home than I could walk back.
Thanks, mine was cracked twice, replaced with OEM, and I finally got another line with the similar inner dia to replace the OEM rubber hose which was ****e.

That is not the issue in this case, there is no aggravating stumble - just decel pops.
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post #7 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-16-2018, 03:26 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 16VGTIDave View Post
Decel pops are typically misfires caused by a lean mixture. However, they can also be caused by air leaks into the exhaust, such as a leak at the header connection to the engine. Best to confirm there are no exhaust leaks before chasing fueling issues.



Adjusting the TPS voltages beyond specs may reduce the symptoms, but it won't correct the underlying problem.
You were spot on. The nuts were way out of the locking threads and I couldn't even see the thread from down under. I don't own a torque wrench so I don't know what torque I should apply there. Could someone help with the numbers?

I have tightened them well enough to see about 3-4 threads from the screw. Haven't taken the bike out, hope the decel pops are sorted. Under 3k RPM was extremely twitchy as well, so I am guessing the fuel/air mixture ratio was well OFF because of this!

This means I will need to also look at all the chassis bolts. I need a good torque wrench.

Learn every day.
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Last edited by red liner; 04-16-2018 at 03:28 AM.
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post #8 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-16-2018, 09:00 AM
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I have several torque wrenches, the harbor freight equivalent 1/2 inch drive torques within 2 foot pounds of my professional torque wrench worth 4 times the cost ( harbor freight equivalent in Canada is Princess Auto), the difference is the professional will react to a 4 pound increase, where the Princess auto has no change.
If you are doing valve shim check you need a 1/2 drive, a 1/4 inch drive ( it needs to be able to reach low inch pound measurements)
Here is the 1/2 @$19.99 number 239 https://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-ha...rench-239.html includes a case
The 1/4 at the same price #2696 includes a case. Be aware that you will have a range that neither torque wrench will work on from 200 to 240 inch pounds. That is why I also have a 3/8 drive such as #807

As to a wrench that will do almost everything related to chassis bolts etc. the 3/8 will cover all, including the axle nut, however , a rule of thumb is to try and stay mid range of your torque wrench, the 3/8 has a 80ft LB max. you would be better off using the 1/2 drive that has a 20 to 150ft Lb rating when torquing the axle nut @ 80ft LBs.
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Last edited by onewizard; 04-16-2018 at 09:05 AM.
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post #9 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-16-2018, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red liner View Post
You were spot on. The nuts were way out of the locking threads and I couldn't even see the thread from down under. I don't own a torque wrench so I don't know what torque I should apply there. Could someone help with the numbers?....
The SERVICE MANUAL for my Gen 3 650 gives the torque for the exhaust-header nuts as 13#/', which isn't very much, so be careful!

Quote:
Originally Posted by red liner View Post
...This means I will need to also look at all the chassis bolts. I need a good torque wrench....
On SALE you can buy all three (1/2", 3/8", 1/4") Harbor-Freight torque wrenches for about $30US ($9.95 apiece!). HIGHLY recommended by CAR CRAFT magazine.
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post #10 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-16-2018, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red liner View Post
You were spot on. The nuts were way out of the locking threads and I couldn't even see the thread from down under. I don't own a torque wrench so I don't know what torque I should apply there. Could someone help with the numbers?

I have tightened them well enough to see about 3-4 threads from the screw. Haven't taken the bike out, hope the decel pops are sorted. Under 3k RPM was extremely twitchy as well, so I am guessing the fuel/air mixture ratio was well OFF because of this!

This means I will need to also look at all the chassis bolts. I need a good torque wrench.

Learn every day.
Exhaust leaks at header flanges can make it pop more under decel, but it can't cause your engine to run leaner. It will however run better with no exhaust leaks, if any.

My main throttle sensor's voltage output at wide open throttle setting was 4.03 V before I adjusted it (standard: 4.2 - 4.4 V). I set WOT at 4.2 V, which gave me 1.091 V at idle. You need to rotate your main throttle sensor (TPS) counter-clockwise just a bit more to have your WOT setting up to at least 4.2 V. You can read the true idle position voltage output only is engine is warmed up enough before so it's not in fast idle position (higher voltage reading).

You can also reduce the exhaust pop by sealing off your PAIR valves, but it won't change the engine's operating A/F ratio.
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Last edited by invader; 04-16-2018 at 10:30 PM.
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post #11 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2018, 12:48 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fasteddiecopeman View Post
The SERVICE MANUAL for my Gen 3 650 gives the torque for the exhaust-header nuts as 13#/', which isn't very much, so be careful!
I heard a bit of a tight "ping" when I tightened them up all the way. Loosened it just a touch back. Damage done or? Do I just replace those lock nuts? 13NM seems extremely low for the header pipe flange. Don't those things need to be absolutely secure? Would blue thread locker help? Or will the heat melt it off anyway? I do a bit of trail riding now and then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
Exhaust leaks at header flanges can make it pop more under decel, but it can't cause your engine to run leaner. It will however run better with no exhaust leaks, if any.

My main throttle sensor's voltage output at wide open throttle setting was 4.03 V before I adjusted it (standard: 4.2 - 4.4 V). I set WOT at 4.2 V, which gave me 1.091 V at idle. You need to rotate your main throttle sensor (TPS) counter-clockwise just a bit more to have your WOT setting up to at least 4.2 V. You can read the true idle position voltage output only is engine is warmed up enough before so it's not in fast idle position (higher voltage reading).

You can also reduce the exhaust pop by sealing off your PAIR valves, but it won't change the engine's operating A/F ratio.
Thanks Invader.

Input Voltage: 5.010V (Standard up to 5.25v)

Output Voltages:
Idle: 1.043V
WOT: 4.167V

The thing is if I up the WOT output voltage to 4.2V, my input voltage goes up beyond the standard 1.05V to something like 1.1xxV.

My Sub TPS input voltage reads about 5.xxV

What do I do? I am yet to ride the bike after tightening up the lock nuts on the header pipes. It is a super fine adjustment. I will attempt it again to get my WOT output reading to get to 4.2V. This is useful.

Mine is a '16 V, and hence the pair valves are already sealed (isn't it?).
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post #12 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2018, 02:37 AM
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Don't worry about your idle position voltage output. If you check it when the engine is not quite hot enough, it will be in a higher fast idle position giving you a higher voltage reading anyway... Just make sure your wide-open-throttle voltage output is at least 4.2 V to be within spec (4.2~4.4), and also to make it run better and stronger, while eliminating twitchiness and pops.
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Last edited by invader; 04-17-2018 at 02:42 AM.
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post #13 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2018, 07:17 AM Thread Starter
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Don't worry about your idle position voltage output. If you check it when the engine is not quite hot enough, it will be in a higher fast idle position giving you a higher voltage reading anyway... Just make sure your wide-open-throttle voltage output is at least 4.2 V to be within spec (4.2~4.4), and also to make it run better and stronger, while eliminating twitchiness and pops.
That's amazing Invader. Thank you, I was trying to stay within specs without knowing much. I will raise it to 4.2 at the very least - or maybe even 4.3V if I'm greedy
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post #14 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2018, 04:39 PM
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I've had the Kawasaki harness jumper for a long time but just haven't bothered to check my 09 until this thread kinda kicked me in the tail and screamed"just go do it!" I'd gotten used to it lurching and usually just ride around it but it has bugged me.

If the neighborhood test ride is an indication, I'm gonna bang my head on the wall!

I set wot to the high end which made closed throttle a bit over spec, but MAN! What a difference!

Sooooo much smoother in the sub 3k rev range. Looks like I'm going riding tomorrow!
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post #15 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2018, 09:04 PM
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I did the vacuum port mod and sub plate removal mod (engine braking and throttle response respectively) and noticed little difference. I added the sensor adapter to test and I am getting 5.2V with key on. What I don't understand is even after moving the sensor up and down it still reads 5.2. That includes moving it enough both directions to get a significant idle RPM change and test riding it to prove I was too far BTDC and ATDC. The Idle or Sub TPS is already maxed out counter clockwise so I'm guessing the P.O. was messing with it... I've been reading the threads and posts by Invader his contemporaries and have two questions:
1. What do you mean by "Input" and "Output" Voltage?
2. Why are my readings staying the same after adjusting?
Thanks for any light you can shed on this!
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post #16 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 02:01 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zaggnutt View Post
I did the vacuum port mod and sub plate removal mod (engine braking and throttle response respectively) and noticed little difference. I added the sensor adapter to test and I am getting 5.2V with key on. What I don't understand is even after moving the sensor up and down it still reads 5.2. That includes moving it enough both directions to get a significant idle RPM change and test riding it to prove I was too far BTDC and ATDC. The Idle or Sub TPS is already maxed out counter clockwise so I'm guessing the P.O. was messing with it... I've been reading the threads and posts by Invader his contemporaries and have two questions:
1. What do you mean by "Input" and "Output" Voltage?
2. Why are my readings staying the same after adjusting?
Thanks for any light you can shed on this!
Zagg, I would want Invader to respond to this, but he's probably so frustrated writing the same counsel a million times on this forum

From the Manual:

Quote:
Input Voltage: Ignition On
Ignition On: DC 4.75 ~ 5.25 V Idle Throttle Closed

Digital Meter (+) → BK (sensor BL) lead
Digital Meter (–) → W (sensor BR/BK) lead
This is what you're probably measuring.

Quote:
Output Voltage: Ignition On
Standard: DC 0.99 ∼ 1.05 V at idle throttle closed
DC 4.11 ∼ 4.50 V at full throttle opening

Digital Meter (+) → R (sensor Y/R) lead
Digital Meter (–) → W (sensor BR/BK) lead
Move your leads + to the Red wire, and you will start seeing the output V. Do share your readings when you get on it.

Thanks for checking Invader! Thumbsup!
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Last edited by red liner; 04-18-2018 at 06:50 AM.
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post #17 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 02:16 AM
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You mean the output voltage with meter + on the red wire... Standard range which used to be 4.2 to 4.4 V according to 2007 service manual is now at wider range of 4.11 to 4.50 V.

Not to complicate things, but I did notice how the input voltage can vary in steps, depending on battery's state of charge. Keep your battery on a light charge while taking voltage readings with ignition switch on and engine stopped.
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post #18 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 05:31 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
As to a wrench that will do almost everything related to chassis bolts etc. the 3/8 will cover all, including the axle nut, however , a rule of thumb is to try and stay mid range of your torque wrench, the 3/8 has a 80ft LB max. you would be better off using the 1/2 drive that has a 20 to 150ft Lb rating when torquing the axle nut @ 80ft LBs.
The thing is I am sitting in India, and there's nothing worth while in torque wrenches available locally. So I will have to buy via Amazon or Ebay. I have zeroed in on the EP Auto, which is the exact same as the Tekton 1/2".

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M1D17AW...v_ov_lig_dp_it

Shipped 57 USD, and its still cheaper than a non ratcheting locally manufactured one (about 60 USD)!
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post #19 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-19-2018, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red liner View Post
Zagg, I would want Invader to respond to this, but he's probably so frustrated writing the same counsel a million times on this forum

From the Manual:



This is what you're probably measuring.



Move your leads + to the Red wire, and you will start seeing the output V. Do share your readings when you get on it.

Thanks for checking Invader! Thumbsup!
Okay, that makes sense... Also, I was wrong on my readings.. They are 5.02V key on and 1.12 key on.
I ended up adjusting the TPS BTDC and ATDC to the point it ran poorly and rode it around a parking lot just to get a feel for the symptoms of out of tune... To much retarding (Counterclockwise) yielded boggy, sluggish roll on, stumbling low RPM idle. Clockwise extreme yielded very hard engine braking and a highly sensitive throttle that made it difficult to ride..It was like riding a mechanical bull but less fun.

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post #20 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-19-2018, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red liner View Post
Zagg, I would want Invader to respond to this, but he's probably so frustrated writing the same counsel a million times on this forum

From the Manual:

This is what you're probably measuring.

Move your leads + to the Red wire, and you will start seeing the output V. Do share your readings when you get on it.

Thanks for checking Invader! Thumbsup!
After playing with the extremes I let the bike idle and played with the adjustment until it had a nice decent idle and the throttle response was normal. The factory paint mark on the TPS and adjustment screw are back in line. I did a quick ride and I may have hit the sweet spot accidentally. The engine braking was reduced and the 2-4K RPM stumble seemed lessened but I am anxious to check voltage and ride on the road to verify results. Next step will be to begin looking for vacuum leaks I guess.

Thank you very much for your help, I appreciate it!
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