Valve Job - How have I screwed it up? - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 09:07 PM Thread Starter
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Valve Job - How have I screwed it up?

Ok, so I'm a mechanical moron, but I attempted my own valve job. Went to start it up and... well I messed something up. Would not start, but did crank. Heard chuffing & puffing. Yeah something is not right. Thought maybe I had the cams swapped, but that was not the problem, thought timing looked good, but I took it apart.

I now have it back together, and it looks right, but I'm hoping someone that knows better than me can tell me what the heck is up. Is it timing? what the heck else could I have messed up? Is it because pin 1 & 2 are different links and the manual shows the same link?

Here is the manual:



Here is what I have:




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post #2 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 09:36 PM
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Does the FI lamp stay on when ignition is on? Is everything hooked back up? -Spark plugs, fuel pump wires, IAP sensor hose, IAT sensor plug-in... rags stuffed in throttle bodies?

Last edited by invader; 04-13-2011 at 09:41 PM.
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post #3 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 09:48 PM
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How's the compression?
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post #4 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 10:13 PM
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When you brought the crank up on the timing mark, (I hope you turned the motor in the correct direction) ...you have to make sure the cam lobes are facing the correct way before you bolt the sprockets back up... if you actually removed the cams... But yeah check the easy stuff first. you may have one or more cams 180 off ...

Make sure when you are lining up the cams on the towers, you look directly on the marks at eye level, I have seen people look at an angle and be a tooth off...

Now the dangerous part is, if the cams or crank moved out of time, and you got it put back together wrong, you might have interference with the piston and valves. This is not forgiving if you are off more than a little...

I assume you turned the motor over the correct direction several times to make sure you didn't have interference right? with the plugs still removed?

I also assume when you say, "valve job" you mean checking the lash ... "valve job" means removing the head, disassembling it, and resurfacing the valves and seats ... (at a minimum)

In the end here, all you can do is go back through the manual and make sure everything is lined-up right. Nobody here can really definitively help you diagnose it unless they are there.

Problem is, you don;t have a lot of experience with what you're doing as you said, so there is going to be a communication gap.

If you are sure you got the easy stuff covered, bring the crank up on it's mark (if you go passed, you have to go back around another revolution, you cant turn it back lol) ... and make sure your cam lobes are facing the correct way. If they are, then make sure your cam timing marks are ded-nutz at eye level. REMEMBER when you rotate the motor, it goes in ONE direction. Manual should say clockwise or counter-clockwise. If you turn it BACK to match crank marks, you could be off one or more teeth on the cams.

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Last edited by dezertv; 04-13-2011 at 10:22 PM.
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post #5 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 10:28 PM
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Don't know why it would make a difference, but the pictures show that the timing marks bi-sect links, and yours do not ... maybe the crank is one tooth off...

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Last edited by dezertv; 04-13-2011 at 10:46 PM.
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post #6 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:15 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
Does the FI lamp stay on when ignition is on? Is everything hooked back up? -Spark plugs, fuel pump wires, IAP sensor hose, IAT sensor plug-in... rags stuffed in throttle bodies?
I have not put it back together a second time. However the first time the FI lamp did not stay lit, it did flash. The engine never ran, just cranked and gave me a few puffs. When I took it apart after this I noticed that the hose that I have put in between the throttle bodies and I pull vacuum off for my Scottoiler was detached from the throttle bodies. I know I attached this so I am thinking the puff was a detonation with the intake valves open Thus blowing them off.

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post #7 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:16 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by blipco View Post
How's the compression?
Not a clue. I guess I will read the manual and see how to measure this.

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post #8 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lonerockz View Post
I have not put it back together a second time. However the first time the FI lamp did not stay lit, it did flash.
Was everything else hooked up? -Spark plug coil connectors, fuel pump wire connector, IAT sensor connector...
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post #9 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dezertv View Post
When you brought the crank up on the timing mark, (I hope you turned the motor in the correct direction) ...you have to make sure the cam lobes are facing the correct way before you bolt the sprockets back up... if you actually removed the cams... But yeah check the easy stuff first. you may have one or more cams 180 off ...

Make sure when you are lining up the cams on the towers, you look directly on the marks at eye level, I have seen people look at an angle and be a tooth off...

Now the dangerous part is, if the cams or crank moved out of time, and you got it put back together wrong, you might have interference with the piston and valves. This is not forgiving if you are off more than a little...

I assume you turned the motor over the correct direction several times to make sure you didn't have interference right? with the plugs still removed?

I also assume when you say, "valve job" you mean checking the lash ... "valve job" means removing the head, disassembling it, and resurfacing the valves and seats ... (at a minimum)

In the end here, all you can do is go back through the manual and make sure everything is lined-up right. Nobody here can really definitively help you diagnose it unless they are there.

Problem is, you don;t have a lot of experience with what you're doing as you said, so there is going to be a communication gap.

If you are sure you got the easy stuff covered, bring the crank up on it's mark (if you go passed, you have to go back around another revolution, you cant turn it back lol) ... and make sure your cam lobes are facing the correct way. If they are, then make sure your cam timing marks are ded-nutz at eye level. REMEMBER when you rotate the motor, it goes in ONE direction. Manual should say clockwise or counter-clockwise. If you turn it BACK to match crank marks, you could be off one or more teeth on the cams.
Motor goes clockwise, but I did move it back a little once or twice when I was trying to get it lined up. Hope that is not really bad :-(

By Valve job I mean that I was checking valve clearance and I adjusted shims, intake were fine, all 4 exhaust were tight and I changed out shims per the manual (All 4 changed by about 0.10).

I did turn it several times after I had it back together to get the cam tensioner tensioned. There was no binding and it turned easily.

I am thinking I may not have had the cam chain tight on the exhaust side. The manual says to make that tight and I may not have had it as tight as it should be. That would put me one or more teeth off right? Does that sound plausible?

Is there a way to check after I think I have it right other than trying to fire her up?

Thanks for all the help!

Steve

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post #10 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:34 PM Thread Starter
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Was everything else hooked up? -Spark plug coil connectors, fuel pump wire connector, IAT sensor connector... Have you replaced shims to adjust your valve clearances?
Yes all electrical and fuel connections made. Pump, Fuel sensor, IAT sensor, Spark Coils.

I replaced Exhaust shims, all 4 were tight, increased them by 0.10 per the chart in the manual. Right went from 3.15 to 3.05 and left from 3.10 to 3.0. Measured with a micrometer on the originals to find the old size. Measured ones that I had from my kit to make sure my kit and the ones that were installed were the same size, then measured the new ones to make sure they were the size as marked.

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post #11 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:36 PM
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Timing chain is taut in front when turning crankshaft clockwise, then the slack at the back in taken up with the tensioner in place... You can check your timing marks by turning it over 2 turns again. Slow down just before the marks, and check as it turns into place with pulling tension on the chain.

You mentioned you might've switched the cams front to back? I adjust my valves without unbolting the gears from the cams...

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post #12 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:43 PM
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DON'T attempt to fire it up until you verify you are in time. Yes, turning it backwards without the cam chain having tension or even having tension will not guarantee proper mark alignment. NEVER turn backwards after overshooting your mark, just keep clockwise until it comes up again.

Think of all that rotating assembly tight in one direction, all slack taken-up, and then you turn the crank back. all that tension is now gone and you are rotating backwards in SLACK.

Something is not right with the chain as it shows between pins and you're not. Hopefully you didn't hit a piston with a valve in the mix of things... If the lash re-measures OK then you "should" be ok.

Also, make sure your cams are facing correctly while on your crank mark. Re-measure also when you're not turning the crank backwards

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post #13 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:46 PM Thread Starter
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Timing chain is taut in front when turning crankshaft clockwise, then the slack at the back in taken up with the tensioner in place... You can check your timing marks by turning it over 2 turns again. Slow down just before the marks, and check as it turns into place with pulling tension on the chain.

You mentioned you might've switched the cams front to back? I adjust my valves without unbolting the gears from the cams...
I thought I might have reversed them before I opened it up the second time. I most definitely DID NOT reverse them. The were in the right place.

Just to be clear on what are saying. If I have the cams the right place on the chain and the marks line up with the top of the tower (like they are in the pic) and then I give the engine 2 turns back to the 2 over T mark the lines on the cams should once again be in alignment with the tops of the tower? If not then I guess I would be off by a tooth or two one direction or the other right?

Steve

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post #14 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:47 PM
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Timing chain is taut in front when turning crankshaft clockwise, then the slack at the back in taken up with the tensioner in place... You can check your timing marks by turning it over 2 turns again. Slow down just before the marks, and check as it turns into place with pulling tension on the chain.

You mentioned you might've switched the cams front to back? I adjust my valves without unbolting the gears from the cams...
Yes, zip ties are our friend ... I haven't had my V apart yet, but I would think they sized the cams and sprockets so this was not possible ... Just in case ... But I might be wrong

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post #15 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:49 PM
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I thought I might have reversed them before I opened it up the second time. I most definitely DID NOT reverse them. The were in the right place.

Just to be clear on what are saying. If I have the cams the right place on the chain and the marks line up with the top of the tower (like they are in the pic) and then I give the engine 2 turns back to the 2 over T mark the lines on the cams should once again be in alignment with the tops of the tower? If not then I guess I would be off by a tooth or two one direction or the other right?
Yes... once in align, always in align. as long as you keep things turning clockwise ... but the link spacing doesn't match the pic in the manual. You are between links not pins on the same link. They point that out ... shouldn't make any difference though ... they just probably want you to count pins between timing marks to make sure there's no slack across sprockets

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Last edited by dezertv; 04-13-2011 at 11:56 PM.
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post #16 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:56 PM
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Cams can be swapped front to back. As noted by BPR, a 650R inlet cam can be used for the exhaust... Also, Versys inlet camshaft is identical to 650R's exhaust camshaft.

Ninja 650R/ER6:
Inlet- open 31 BTDC................Exhaust- open 50 BBDC
close 61 ABDC........................close 30 ATDC
duration 272..........................duration 260
cam height 36.6 +/- 0.057 mm... cam height 35.9 +/- 0.057 mm

Versys:
Inlet- open 25 BTDC................Exhaust- open 47 BBDC
close 54 ABDC........................close 25 ATDC
duration 260..........................duration 252
cam height 35.9 +/- 0.057 mm... cam height 35.4 +/- 0.057 mm
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post #17 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:57 PM Thread Starter
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I did not unbolt the gears from the cams, just took the cams out to get the buckets and shims out, then put them back.

When you say "measure lash" what do you mean? The 32 pins that you are supposed to count?

When you say "Something is not right with the chain as it shows between pins and you're not." Do you mean how my pic shows pin 1 & 2 are on different links and in the drawing from the manual they are on the same link?

I'll have to wait till tomorrow night, to dark in the garage now.

Thanks everyone for all your help!

Steve

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Last edited by lonerockz; 04-14-2011 at 12:01 AM.
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post #18 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 12:01 AM
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Your timing marks and chain links all look good... Your FI light was flashing though, so something must've not been hooked up as it should.
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post #19 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 12:02 AM
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Since we suspect you tried to start out of time, it would be good to measure your lash with your feeler gauges again.

No, I am sure the pin count is fine, you are just showing the timing mark between links and not pins. should be no issue I wouldn't think. as long as you are at 1 and 31 or whatever the pic says.

Invader... what I mean, is are the mating surfaces for the sprockets the same all around. Meaning will an exhaust sprocket fit on an intake cam ... Like I said I don't know. Cam lobe specs obviously show same from what you post...

We could verify part numbers

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post #20 of 64 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 12:04 AM
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Your timing marks and chain links all look good... Your FI light was flashing though, so something must've not been hooked up as it should.
assuming he was keeping proper tension right? which he said he turned things back ... Crank will turn a good amount and not move cams with slack in chain if turned back

would the FI illuminate if the CPS was not seeing the pick-up right? FI light could mean trouble a lot of places ... everything must happen based off CPS reading right first

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Last edited by dezertv; 04-14-2011 at 12:08 AM.
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