Losing power at 3k RPM - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-29-2016, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you guys. The immediate issue I am facing with the bike is a bit of a power loss and then a surge at about 3,000 RPM. I wonder what this could be. Very unnerving when on the freeway or even in the city where I use this part of the revband a lot. I also feel the bike's a bit more twitchy than usual at lower down the rev band (could also be in my head).

I did look up a few threads and there seem to be similar questions with solutions being:

1. Synchronise the throttle position sensors
2. Check the O2 sensor
3. Not sure what else.

Mine's a 2016 V, so I am not sure if the Vacuum mod for the throttle sensors would be applicable.

Will post again on the relevant thread and call out for "The Invader" haha.
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post #2 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-30-2016, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by red liner View Post
Thank you guys. The immediate issue I am facing with the bike is a bit of a power loss and then a surge at about 3,000 RPM. I wonder what this could be. Very unnerving when on the freeway or even in the city where I use this part of the revband a lot. I also feel the bike's a bit more twitchy than usual at lower down the rev band (could also be in my head).

I did look up a few threads and there seem to be similar questions with solutions being:

1. Synchronise the throttle position sensors
2. Check the O2 sensor
3. Not sure what else.

Mine's a 2016 V, so I am not sure if the Vacuum mod for the throttle sensors would be applicable.

Will post again on the relevant thread and call out for "The Invader" haha.
This may or may not be your case, but another rider I knew with a 2015, was complaining of pulling wheelies and surging, what I found was he hadn't adjusted the throttle free play, in all honesty I don't know how he could even ride it. Look at the idle screw/ throttle cam, you will see a pull cable and a push cable, grab your throttle grip and try slight movements, the manual states the recommended free play, I have my throttle set that about .010 free play exists between the push and pull cables. There is an adjustment for this and another thread going describing this.

Read your post a second time, loose air box, loose vacuum lines, defective TPS , this is something you should be going to the dealer about, no harm in asking on the forum, however the end result could be tragic.
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post #3 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-31-2016, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
This may or may not be your case, but another rider I knew with a 2015, was complaining of pulling wheelies and surging, what I found was he hadn't adjusted the throttle free play, in all honesty I don't know how he could even ride it. Look at the idle screw/ throttle cam, you will see a pull cable and a push cable, grab your throttle grip and try slight movements, the manual states the recommended free play, I have my throttle set that about .010 free play exists between the push and pull cables. There is an adjustment for this and another thread going describing this.

Read your post a second time, loose air box, loose vacuum lines, defective TPS , this is something you should be going to the dealer about, no harm in asking on the forum, however the end result could be tragic.
Onewizard - thank you. My throttle free play seems to be alright, have ridden with this throttle about 10k miles now without a problem.

I will try and open a new thread about this. I have an appointment with the local dealer on Monday, so I hope peeps here check back in to write feedback. Happy new year!
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post #4 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-31-2016, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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Losing power at 3k RPM

Hello everyone,

I ride a 2016 versys with about 12k miles on the clock. I have been facing a very strange issue with the bike the past 500 miles or so. I will try to explain the sequence of events below.

1. I am riding happily and climbing the revs to about 6k RPM on 3rd Gear.
2. I am approaching traffic, so I drop the revs, but remain on 3rd gear.
3. The revs drop to 3k RPM. The bike cruises down but there seems to be strange lull in performance as she cruises down to 3k RPM.
4. At exactly 3k RPM, the bike loses power violently, and I have to whack the throttle open hard to get the bike to power up again. There is no "surge". The bike *loses* power.

All other RPM's the bike performs flawlessly. Even with this issue on board, I did about a constant 70-80 mph on the freeway for about 250 miles last week. But the sudden loss of power and the subsequent twitch when I whack throttle open is very unnerving, both on the free way and in the city which is where I see the 3k-5k powerband being used a lot.

My issue seems to be eerily similar to what the gentleman here described: http://www.kawiforums.com/ninja-650r...ml#post2707921

I have an appointment with the dealer on Monday, but I would like to gather as much technical feedback from peeps here before I head there. Invader, if you're reading this, please do let me know what you think. I don't know how to mark your attention here...

Happy new year everybody!

Last edited by red liner; 12-31-2016 at 11:27 AM.
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post #5 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-31-2016, 02:25 PM
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What is its maintenance record? Was it worked on or inspected recently? Is it all stock? Were your TB's vacuum synched? Does the FI lamp go on when it happens?
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post #6 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-31-2016, 11:07 PM Thread Starter
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What is its maintenance record? Was it worked on or inspected recently? Is it all stock? Were your TB's vacuum synched? Does the FI lamp go on when it happens?
Dear Invader - thank you for writing in!

- This bike has been with me since new (May 2016 model).
- Yes, I just had the 12k mile service done - air filters cleaned, chain adjusted etc. The guy at the dealership who works on the bike is very thorough, and I am usually with him the whole time when the bike is attended to.
- This problem arose about 500 miles prior to the 12k mile service above. So there's nothing the dealership could have meddled with.
- The bike is all stock.
- The TB's were "apparently" synced at 7,500 miles. I say apparent, because at the time I didn't even know what it meant. Its only in the past few days on reading the posts in this forum that I am getting to understand this bike better. So I dont know the readings at the time.
- The FI lamp does not go on when this happens. There are no errors displayed, which is why the mechanic at the dealership refuses to believe there is a problem with the bike. Unfortunately when he test drove the bike he was unable to replicate the problem after he serviced the bike.

A day after the service, I went out on a short 10 miler, and the problem surfaced way too often for me to continue ignoring it. I am beginning to feel there is a fuelling related issue somewhere. I have since then gone through more than a full tank of fuel in the bike, so I dont reckon this is a case of bad fuel. Even if bad fuel, shouldn't this issue be present throughout the rev range? Why only the 3000 rpm marker? Could this be that the fuel mixture is too lean when I close the throttle and therefore the bike loses power? Is the fuel mixture governed solely by the throttle sensors? I am sorry, I am getting ahead of myself reading posts here and trying to lock down the issue.

The bike was absolutely perfect until about 500 miles back. I'm still good under warranty. The bike will go back to the dealer, but it helps if I stay on top of things technically, so we arrive at the solution sooner (I have a longish ride planned middle of this week).
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post #7 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 02:36 AM
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What elevation above sea level are you at? Which grade of gasoline do you use, and is it ethanol free?

http://www.pure-gas.org/

You could try adjusting your main (lower grey) throttle sensor by rotating it counterclockwise by about a millimeter which should completely cure your lean stumble, particularly near 2,800 rpm... Refer to the green reference mark on front of TPS before loosening its Torx screw.
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post #8 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 03:30 AM Thread Starter
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What elevation above sea level are you at? Which grade of gasoline do you use, and is it ethanol free?

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

You could try adjusting your main (lower grey) throttle sensor by rotating it counterclockwise by about a millimeter which should completely cure your lean stumble, particularly near 2,800 rpm... Refer to the green reference mark on front of TPS before loosening its Torx screw.
Elevation above sea level is 930 meters.

Grade of gasoline is either 87 Octane or 91 Octane (at the time of the issue surfacing I had put in 91 Octane. But having used 91 actively over the past 12k miles, I am not sure if this could be the issue).

I think we're at about 5% ethanol blended for the 87 Octane. Do you suggest I do only 91 Octane for a while?

I will check readings from the throttle sensor first and see whether it is within the factory set tolerance limits. Then I will do as you say tomorrow and check if there's a change in performance. I understand that the green reference mark tells me what the existing position is, is that right?

I would expect fuel efficiency to go down by making the mixture richer. Would that be correct?

Invader, thank you for helping me out. I am keen on understanding this bike more and more, and I hope to start home-servicing of this wonderful machine once I get out of warranty (few months).

I also looked up this post of yours for a visual guide: http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...html#post86320

But none of the pictures load :-(

Last edited by red liner; 01-01-2017 at 04:19 AM.
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post #9 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 06:56 AM Thread Starter
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As I read the service manual for more inputs:

For some reason this feels like when ECU is fuelling in D-J method (idling/low speed), there seems to be no stutter (1 & 2 gear). When the ECU goes into a-N method (mid-high speed = 3rd gear upwards), the stutter arises at 3k rpm. Would my inference be correct?

Invader, I have been trying to find your pictures which shows how much you turned the sensor by, I couldn't find it any of the threads you've posted in around here or on the UK forum. Would much appreciate it if you could post them here again.

Finally, I just dont get how the bike's behaviour can change this drastically after 12000 miles. If this was the issue from day 1, I would understand messing with the main throttle body sensor and making adjustments. But this just came about very suddenly. Is this even normal?

I found this post with a few images: http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...-backfire.html

So I went down to give it a shot. I turned the sensor down/counter clockwise by a hair (to the left if facing the bike). Started her up. On cold start, the RPM went a bit crazy and shot up to 3k RPM and then settled back down. But something was amiss. I held the clutch and tried to get the bike to move and she just shut down. I think the fuelling was made even leaner?

So I went back down and turned the sensor the other way - up towards the fuel tank (to the right). Then I readjusted the idle to about 1400 rpm (up from 1300). Went up and down by street a few times, and seems like the problem's gone.

Either I'm daft, or Kawasaki has changed things on the 2015 model. I would like to believe I am daft.

However, when I release the clutch to get the bike going, the RPM goes below 1000 and the bike doesn't really move unless I give her a bit of gas. Is this normal?

Going to get out in the morning and start her up to see what next. Might just avoid the trip to the dealership.

Last edited by red liner; 01-01-2017 at 11:07 AM.
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post #10 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 11:39 AM
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Pictures Gone/ How To Forum TPS

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Originally Posted by red liner View Post
Elevation above sea level is 930 meters.

Grade of gasoline is either 87 Octane or 91 Octane (at the time of the issue surfacing I had put in 91 Octane. But having used 91 actively over the past 12k miles, I am not sure if this could be the issue).

I think we're at about 5% ethanol blended for the 87 Octane. Do you suggest I do only 91 Octane for a while?

I will check readings from the throttle sensor first and see whether it is within the factory set tolerance limits. Then I will do as you say tomorrow and check if there's a change in performance. I understand that the green reference mark tells me what the existing position is, is that right?

I would expect fuel efficiency to go down by making the mixture richer. Would that be correct?

Invader, thank you for helping me out. I am keen on understanding this bike more and more, and I hope to start home-servicing of this wonderful machine once I get out of warranty (few months).

I also looked up this post of yours for a visual guide: http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...html#post86320

But none of the pictures load
:-(
You are correct, this was from the old forum, many posts and pictures lost, http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/86320-post26.html is one of the original posts.

I started a TPS in How To Forum , I included pictures I found on this forum, and applicable posts.

So this is my take on what is happening, since this is intermittent I feel it points to electrical. The very first thing I would check is the oxygen sensor, the plug, and look for loose connections, also follow the testing of the sensor in the manual. The plug going to the airbox sensor could also be a problem if it came loose.A to the TPS that has been a problem in the past with surging, I would unplug and plug it back in, there is a harness made for this testing of, also ways around if you don't have a harness ( you are under warranty and having a mechanic suggest it is your imagination isn't good) .

To summarize what I would do, if it was my bike and under warranty;

Check the plugs to; oxygen sensor;TPS; airbox sensor , when checking these plugs, check the individual wires going into the plug, each wire has a crimp and retainer, I have seen it where the crimp is good, but the pin wasn't inserted all the way into the socket, ambient temperature changed expansion rate, wire tie held everything in place, even though one pin wasn't inserted correctly, sometimes it worked other times not, so look at the end of the plug and see if all the pins are the same distance from the end of the plastic.

Follow test procedure for oxygen sensor, record results
Check frame ground and engine ground

Take it for a ride, see if the problem still exists, if yes, leave it with the dealer, anything you found that seemed off, like the oxygen sensor, mention it. That is what warranty is for, normally I wouldn't suggest any of the above, however seems like your back is against the wall.
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post #11 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 11:56 AM Thread Starter
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Onewizard, thank you. I tried to go look up posts on the how to forum, unfortunately looks like I need 20 posts and up to be able to see them.

This issue is not intermittent - rather it was extremely normal to happen at exactly 3k RPM. It happened every single time, to the point that I knew exactly when it was going to come about, and brace myself.

Will ride the bike the in the morning to see if the problem persists and figure what I should check next. Will follow through your leads. Many thanks!
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post #12 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red liner View Post
As I read the service manual for more inputs:


I found this post with a few images: http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...-backfire.html

So I went down to give it a shot. I turned the sensor down/counter clockwise by a hair (to the left if facing the bike). Started her up. On cold start, the RPM went a bit crazy and shot up to 3k RPM and then settled back down. But something was amiss. I held the clutch and tried to get the bike to move and she just shut down. I think the fuelling was made even leaner?

So I went back down and turned the sensor the other way - up towards the fuel tank (to the right). Then I readjusted the idle to about 1400 rpm (up from 1300). Went up and down by street a few times, and seems like the problem's gone.

Either I'm daft, or Kawasaki has changed things on the 2015 model. I would like to believe I am daft.

However, when I release the clutch to get the bike going, the RPM goes below 1000 and the bike doesn't really move unless I give her a bit of gas. Is this normal?

Going to get out in the morning and start her up to see what next. Might just avoid the trip to the dealership.
I have played with my ( main throttle sensor)TPS, 2015, changing the setting above or below factory has zero results in performance,due to the closed loop oxygen sensor, feedback from crankcase pos. sensor, speed sensor and ECU mapping, however it does affect fuel mileage.

So here are my settings, July 2016
I have the 57001-1538 adapter I have given numbers / referenced to colour codes of the manual pages 3-43 to 3-45 Fuel System.
#1-Brown Black
#2-Blue
#3-Yellow Red

Input 4.76 VDC using a fluke 189
WOT 4.04 VDC
Idle 1.031 VDC
Input VDC 5.018 VDC sensor measured 4.830 K ohms

Main throttle Sensor, 1 and 2= 4.898 K ohms
Input 5.018 VDC
Output 1 and 3 Idle 1.026 VDC warmed up and running, 4.238 VDC W.O.T motor off

Output 1&3 at temp but not running 1.0248 VDC


My new setting,August 2016, key only ( not running ) #1 & #3, 1.041VDC , W.O.T. 4.25 VDC I found my fuel mileage dropped

September 2016 changed to #1 & #3 to 0.99 VDC and left it there for the rest of the season.
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post #13 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 12:17 PM
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Damn , need to take a work order out

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Originally Posted by red liner View Post
Onewizard, thank you. I tried to go look up posts on the how to forum, unfortunately looks like I need 20 posts and up to be able to see them.

This issue is not intermittent - rather it was extremely normal to happen at exactly 3k RPM. It happened every single time, to the point that I knew exactly when it was going to come about, and brace myself.

Will ride the bike the in the morning to see if the problem persists and figure what I should check next. Will follow through your leads. Many thanks!
You should only have restrictions on posting, not viewing in the How To Forum.
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post #14 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red liner View Post
As I read the service manual for more inputs:

For some reason this feels like when ECU is fuelling in D-J method (idling/low speed), there seems to be no stutter (1 & 2 gear). When the ECU goes into a-N method (mid-high speed = 3rd gear upwards), the stutter arises at 3k rpm. Would my inference be correct?

Invader, I have been trying to find your pictures which shows how much you turned the sensor by, I couldn't find it any of the threads you've posted in around here or on the UK forum. Would much appreciate it if you could post them here again.

Finally, I just dont get how the bike's behaviour can change this drastically after 12000 miles. If this was the issue from day 1, I would understand messing with the main throttle body sensor and making adjustments. But this just came about very suddenly. Is this even normal?

I found this post with a few images: http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...-backfire.html

So I went down to give it a shot. I turned the sensor down/counter clockwise by a hair (to the left if facing the bike). Started her up. On cold start, the RPM went a bit crazy and shot up to 3k RPM and then settled back down. But something was amiss. I held the clutch and tried to get the bike to move and she just shut down. I think the fuelling was made even leaner?

So I went back down and turned the sensor the other way - up towards the fuel tank (to the right). Then I readjusted the idle to about 1400 rpm (up from 1300). Went up and down by street a few times, and seems like the problem's gone.

Either I'm daft, or Kawasaki has changed things on the 2015 model. I would like to believe I am daft.

However, when I release the clutch to get the bike going, the RPM goes below 1000 and the bike doesn't really move unless I give her a bit of gas. Is this normal?

Going to get out in the morning and start her up to see what next. Might just avoid the trip to the dealership.
That's all good. Yes about the green reference mark, to make sure you know where you started from... It's just strange that it got better turning it clockwise instead of counterclockwise.

When I adjusted mine while reading output voltages as you may have found in old posts; voltage output was within spec at idle, but not at WOT. I adjusted it to have voltage up to within spec at WOT, which brought it slightly over spec at idle position, which cured the lean stumble.

Higher idle was in fact a lean indication. Can you now just raise your idle back up to 1,300 rpm with your new clockwise setting?
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Last edited by invader; 01-01-2017 at 01:47 PM.
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post #15 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 01:57 PM
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Many have experienced it starting to idle hunt (higher and unstable) and stumble more at near 2,800 rpm only once engine was more thoroughly broken in... Colder weather and higher atmospheric pressures may have made it seem more sudden, beside other possible factors. Is your air filter properly cleaned, oiled with just enough air filter oil, and properly fitted in airbox? Airbox is properly fitted on TB's? Crankcase vent hose to airbox, vacuum hoses/plugs and IAP sensor hose on TB's are all in place?
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post #16 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 12:30 AM Thread Starter
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That's all good. Yes about the green reference mark, to make sure you know where you started from... It's just strange that it got better turning it clockwise instead of counterclockwise.

When I adjusted mine while reading output voltages as you may have found in old posts; voltage output was within spec at idle, but not at WOT. I adjusted it to have voltage up to within spec at WOT, which brought it slightly over spec at idle position, which cured the lean stumble.

Higher idle was in fact a lean indication. Can you now just raise your idle back up to 1,300 rpm with your new clockwise setting?
Hello Invader.

So I think I may have made a small mistake. I think I might have turned the main throttle sensor too much counter clockwise and thus ran into said issue. I think I did exactly as this gentleman here: http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...tml#post174944

I do remember that the exhaust smell had changed drastically. So when I turned it clockwise towards stock, I may have stopped exactly 0.5mm or thereabouts of the stock position. Thus curing the choking/stuttering issue completely.

Cold start this morning - perfect 1800 RPM
Just did about 3 miles in the back alleys this morning, the bike was way smoother all the way up, gears just slotted in much better, and she pulled like a freight train on every single gear.

The engine braking down to 2nd and 1st is much less pronounced (I have to use more of my brakes than earlier). Is this a given?

Last night I had an issue with the bike running at 9 kmph on first gear zero throttle/idle position. This caused the bike to shake a bit without throttle input and not launch very well.

This morning, I loosened the torx nut from its stock position (it has a green inference mark as well), by 1 mm. It isnt loose, but it isnt tight as hell as well. I had also turned up the idle to 1300 rpm when warm/hot (it was at 1150-1200 RPM after warm up). I had also sufficiently warmed up the bike (3-4 mile run). The bike ran at 10 kmph on first gear zero throttle input, now curing my launch problem (or going over bad stretches at zero throttle). Don't look at me.

I don't know what the hell worked, but things seem good now. Ambling along in 2'nd gear seems very very smooth. Taking those tight turns on 1st gear without throttle modulation seemed perfect.

I will keep an eye on things and post back more results over the next few days.
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post #17 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red liner View Post
So when I turned it clockwise towards stock, I may have stopped exactly 0.5mm or thereabouts of the stock position. Thus curing the choking/stuttering issue completely... things seem good now. Ambling along in 2'nd gear seems very very smooth. Taking those tight turns on 1st gear without throttle modulation seemed perfect.


Quote:
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I don't know what the hell worked
Don't you mean 0.5mm COUNTERCLOCKWISE of the stock position?
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post #18 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 01:38 AM Thread Starter
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Fixing frayed/bitten Alternator cabling

6 months back when the bike was brand new, I had a rat bite incident - and a few parts of the alternator cabling were bitten into on the edges. Thus they were making contact (or something), current wasn't passing through, and my battery died.

I took it to the dealer, and they had a LOT of insulation tape wrapped around the frayed bits for good measure.

Its been about 12k miles now. I know insulation tape will go bad over a period of time. What's a better more permanent fix to this issue? Is just the wiring kit that originates from the alternator available as a part to buy? If not, what can I use to fix the frayed bits of the cable?

Will plasti-dip work?

Thanks again,
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post #19 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 01:44 AM Thread Starter
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Don't you mean 0.5mm COUNTERCLOCKWISE of the stock position?
Most definitely yes, for sure.

I was talking about the idle throttle KPMH on 1st gear bit.

About your point on this issue cropping up after the bike's broken in. Well, maybe - I am a very very soft rider on the V - all my brake pads lasted close to 12,000 miles - and they still have about 500-1000 miles of life left. My fuel average has always hovered at 56 miles per gallon. So maybe the bike took this long to break in more?

And yes, the weather where I live decidedly turned cold just around the time this issue cropped up.

Does the V have mood swings? PMS?

Many thanks Invader. I will keep this thread updated with progress.
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post #20 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 09:08 AM
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Scotch 33 Tape/ clear silicone

I merged the two threads as this new info on rats definitely sounds like something that needs a closer look, relating to the 3000 RPM problem.


Electrical will break down if crap to begin with. If you have parallel conductors missing insulation, separate one, tape it with one or two wraps, cover the whole area with clear silicone , and tape over using half laps, start one inch below and end 1 inch above.Make sure this is good quality silicone,some coloured silicone is conductive, let it cure, about 4 hours. All wiring is integral to the bike, there are no individual harness parts other than the connector available.

For a new bike, you are having more than your share of problems, the rats may have gotten to one of the vacuum lines, in reference to the 3000 RPM loss of power.

I read your post a second time, a dead battery / associated with the stator wiring isn't good. That means you had 2 or more phases shorted, if two phases, you need to follow my testing procedure for your stator, the reason I say that, you could have a shorted stator now, if you ran any length of time with the wires shorted. The stator can output 330 watts approx. which is 13.4 amp per phase, or 24 amp single phase. The magnet wire and wiring is designed for 14 amp maximum per phase, so a shorted 2 phase =24 amp, which will burn up the magnet wiring in very short order. I very much doubt your dealer would cover this under warranty.
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Last edited by onewizard; 01-02-2017 at 09:26 AM.
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