Stator|R/R|battery trouble shooting - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-31-2016, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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Stator|R/R|battery trouble shooting

Hey there!

After a long (2.5hrs so far), hot (NC summer), highway ride and hitting slowdown traffic, my meters/clock started blanking out and headlight dimming. When I stopped soon after (also for gas), the bike would start (seemed like not enough juice to get it rolling). Luckily, as I was out and on the way back from a trip, I managed to roll start the bike on a hill (thank god there was one at that particular gas station...) and get home.

I haven't ever had any electrical issues other than a busted/rusted ignition coil, but last time I changed by spark plugs and ignition coils I noticed some wear on the wiring harness passing under the air box. it had worn through the plastic housing on a couple wires, but not into the wire itself. I taped it up and ziptied it out of the way, but this is certainly a possible conflating factor.

Battery Tests

I've since purchased a battery tender, and have a new battery, stator, R/R and tools on the way. However, I'm still troubleshooting to determine the 100% cause.

At first, it seemed the battery was taking a long time, but I guess a 10A/hr battery w/ a 800mA tender could take upwards of 12 hours to charge, and after letting it rest for about an hour (perhaps a bit shy) and testing the voltage on the battery it's within range. And now the battery tender's showing a green light too, so I guess the battery's charged up and probably functional.

According to this troubleshooting guide, if the voltage is in range, the battery should be good - it was on the low end, but also maybe not all the way charged up after having 100% died the afternoon before.

Next test on the list is voltage with the starter - it mostly stayed above 10V, but once or twice dipped to 7/8V during starting for just the shortest moment (and other times never dipped below 10V). I've never done this test before, but since it was mostly upwards of the 9.5V it seems like it's probably ok?

The 3rd battery test on the guide is testing the charging system.

Quote:
3. The charging system output voltage should be checked, again with the multimeter at the battery terminals and this time with the engine is running. Start the engine and operate at various RPM with the headlight on and off (to turn off the headlight, disconnect the headlight connector). The readings may show nearly battery voltage when the engine speed is low, and, as the engine speed rises, the readings should also rise. But they must be kept under the specified voltage.

According to the Kawasaki Service Manual the measured voltage should be 14.2 - 15.2 volts DC at about 2000-3000 rpm. In reality it is more likely to be in the range of 13.5 – 15.0 volts DC.

NOTE: If the alternator is outputting more than 15.2 volts DC to the battery, the Regulator/Rectifier (R/R) unit is bad and should be replaced. Over-charging a battery will quickly ruin it and may cause severe damage or failure of other electrical components such as the ECU.

If the charging voltages are too low and do not rise as engine speed increases, suspect the alternator or R/R. If the charging voltages are too high, suspect the R/R unit firstly, then perhaps dirty or corroded electrical terminals. The procedure for checking all of these is too detailed to describe here so consult the Service Manual for additional details.
My voltages drop when the engine speed increases, so it would seem that it's the alternator (stator?) or R/R. This makes sense, but it seems weird that the guide would specifically say "if voltages drop as engine speed increases..." anyhow, they are certainly low.

Q: Does my logic so far check out?

The final test in that section (battery tests) is to test for something in the wiring causing battery discharge. I haven't tested this yet, but will, and it should tell me if the wires are causing any issue.
Q: However, I believe test 4 in the guide won't tell me if there's extra resistance from corroded connectors or damaged wires in the system, is that correct?

Stator Tests

I did the first test for the stator, and assuming I have the right connector, got OL, indicating that the stator's all burnt up. This seems likely since I'm overdue for an oil change, at 36K/mi and it was a particularly hot day when it failed.

Is this the Alternator Lead Connector? (sorry the images are sideways...)

Q: Could someone confirm that this is indeed the correct 3 wired alternator lead connector pictured in the guide? The image isn't particularly informative and there's a lot of wires in the bundle (but this is 3 wires, which seems like it should check out).



R/R Tests

Next I'll also want to test the R/R per the guide, but it's a little hard to get to so I may not do this this morning.


I would love a second opinion on my testing and thinking in general and confirmation that I've got the right connector for testing the stator before I go pulling apart the side cover to replace it

I know there are many stator threads, but many are long and involved and each takes it's own route, so I figured I'd create my own for trouble shooting purposes.
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-31-2016, 02:13 PM
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Polaris Regulator Install page3

When you posted in Burnt Stator did you notice my post with the highlighted :
http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...r-install.html

That was done to eliminate searching for information, the Google info you provided a link for is highly technical, what should have been stated is that the design i.e. shunt styleis the root cause. To explain further, installing a brand new Kawasaki regulator on your brand new Kawaski stator will cause the same burnt stator to occur again. I have more detailed explanations under the above thread.
Since you started this thread, could you take the time to post pictures of the front and back of the stator when you remove it, provided it has failed. Also try and take some time to read series regulator , which is 2003 technology, very reliable and your stator will never see 100% output unless you have added heated gear and extra lighting, approx. 160 watts worth ( this number was arrived at using 330 watt max out minus continuous normal load of 170 Watts @ 14.2 volts)http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...ight=base+load

Enjoy the read and keep us posted

Last edited by onewizard; 12-03-2016 at 10:39 AM.
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-31-2016, 10:26 PM
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Your Posted Picture/ Not the Stator Wires

The connector you show is not the stator, if original equipment there should be 3 white wires. Picture of the stator and plug, no idea what you have in your fingers, looks like a speed pickup sensor connector. http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...0&d=1443432236

Last edited by onewizard; 08-31-2016 at 10:29 PM.
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-05-2016, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
The connector you show is not the stator, if original equipment there should be 3 white wires. Picture of the stator and plug, no idea what you have in your fingers, looks like a speed pickup sensor connector. http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...0&d=1443432236
Thanks onewizard - shoulda traced wires more closely! Hope I didn't break anything with that test...

Anyone know what it was I was using?
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-05-2016, 11:03 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
When you posted in Burnt Stator did you notice my post with the highlighted :
http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...r-install.html

That was done to eliminate searching for information, the Google info you provided a link for is highly technical, what should have been stated is that the design i.e. shunt styleis the root cause. To explain further, installing a brand new Kawasaki regulator on your brand new Kawaski stator will cause the same burnt stator to occur again. I have more detailed explanations under the above thread.
Since you started this thread, could you take the time to post pictures of the front and back of the stator when you remove it, provided it has failed. Also try and take some time to read series regulator , which is 2003 technology, very reliable and your stator will never see 100% output unless you have added heated gear and extra lighting, approx. 160 watts worth ( this number was arrived at using 330 watt max out minus continuous normal load of 170 Watts @ 14.2 volts)http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...ight=base+load

Enjoy the read and keep us posted
Yes, I'll be sure to post pictures and read up on the rest

Last edited by onewizard; 12-03-2016 at 10:40 AM.
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-05-2016, 01:00 PM
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Meter Testing 101

Generally when using a meter, two settings are generally used for static testing, ohms in the range the manual of the versys states, if you have a good or more sophisticated meter, in ohms, short out your leads and hit REL which stands for relative, this will zero out the resistance of your leads, so the reading you take will be the actual reading.

For those without this feature, figure 0.50 to 0.75 of a ohm for leads.Second thing is diode test, used for checking diodes, a diode is typically 0.50 to o.80 of a ohm, using ohms will not give a accurate reading, however if that is all you have then if you were testing the regulator, one direction would be infinity ( reverse ) and the other would read possibly 3 to 5 ohms ( forward conduction), all tests are close to the same then all is good.

Last testing would involve measuring VAC or VDC.

So unless you were applying a outside power source like jumping your battery or you had a very old analogue meter, chances of doing damage by using a digital meter connected to the wrong thing with the wrong polarity, doing damage is virtually impossible! What you should gain from this is that odd readings usually mean either damage or you may have;the wrong colour code of wires and wrong shape of plugs, not traced the wire to the right area, or didn't follow direction.
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-05-2016, 01:36 PM
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This should help locate the stator wires.
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-06-2016, 03:39 PM Thread Starter
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Sky Pilot, that's a great video, thank you! I did manage to do the test with the PDF guide despite it's lack of pictures, though the video would have been super helpful to start with! Also, I'm not sure if my multimeter was picking up the right connection or not because I didn't use the wire method as shown there, but it's nice as the guide suggested a matching connector and blah blah, but who has that? :P Thanks!

onewizard, thanks for the re-assurance about having probably not screwed something up. I did (silly me) forget to re-connect the R/R plug after the test (came back another day) and was worried for a moment that perhaps I had blown the headlight circuit/relay, but no such worry

Hopefully have the whole thing fixed up by Thursday!
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-06-2016, 04:09 PM
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As to the video Skypilot 69, excellent, I would change only one thing, and that is the VAC testing of the 3 phase should be done using the idle adjustment screw, setting at a fixed approximately 2000 RPM. I have stated in other posts why I picked this RPM, and not the RPM called for in the manual. Short answer is shorted turns will show up at lower RPM because the stator is just beginning to produce approximately the same maximum voltage that it would under load. 2000 RPM should output 24 to 28 VAC and all readings should be within 0.5 VDC of each other.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-06-2016, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Gahhh!! The forum at my post... twice...

So, the ultra short version... and I'll post more later...

Changed the burnt stator, yay

Screwed up (long story) and stripped the alternator lead wire holding plate bolt... it's very short...
So.. few Q's for now, and the silly story later...

1. Do you think the locktighted, but stripped bolt is likely to come out in there?
1a. How likely and how soon?
1b. how bad would this be?
2. What's the best fix?
2a. Quick fixes?
2b. Is re-tapping the hole and getting new bolt a reliable fix for this internal part?
3. A new stator cover is $100 (the stripped part is undoubtedly the aluminum cover itself...), but I bet new gears and shiz cost a lot more... worth replacing?


I'm supposed to ride a few hundred miles on Friday and back Sunday for work stuff...
Think I can ride there and back with the little stripped bolt without an issue and deal with it when I get back? (obviously, I won't hold anyone but myself accountable... just curious about 'yer opinions)
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-06-2016, 10:50 PM
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Talking Stator Mounting or Lead clamp?

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps0pf0yrrq.jpg
Have a look at the above picture, I think you are referring to the below picture, which has a locating pin in the bottom.
http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...1&d=1300053225

If it is the second picture:
Well I did more research and realized my original suggestion may not work, because the tap drill for M6 is larger than#7.Rather than delete I thought I would leave it contained in {}. So the best option is to get a 7mm X 8mm hex bolt ( readily available size is M 7X8mm), get the taps as suggested below but M7. I have included a tap drill chart, in reality, very little force is required as this plate is to hold the wires toward the housing, this bolt is at right angles to the force applied, as is the pin in the bottom, manual says not to apply a locking agent such as loctite, JB weld might have worked, although I would take a chance, not because of the wire, more so the bolt coming out and getting in the gear box CRUNCH
http://www.lincolnmachine.com/tap_drill_chart.html

Note My suggestion is to go with a M7 taper and bottoming tap, However
the outside diameter of a M6 bolt is .233 inches, a 1/4 bolt is .250, however it likely will be .245 , so you would have a gain of about .006 per side of thread---not nearly enough. One other thing, measure the depth of the hole to the top and compare it to the bolt length, it might be deeper than the bolt length of the M6 X 16 mm . You could then get a longer M6 and cut the bolt shorter to match the depth.


{the bolt is a M6X8mm, I am going to suggest if you are really careful, you could buy a 1/4 by 5/8 hex bolt, or a 1/4 by 3/4 hex bolt and washer it down to 5/8. You need a 1/4 NC taper tap and a 1/4 NC bottoming tap. This is a blind hole, 1/4 turn past bottom and you strip the threads. There is another thing you could try, and that is a 1/4 self tapping hex bolt X 5/8, be aware that this is hardened, it is not meant to give a full depth thread, and any taping into aluminum requires lube and patience, plus it doesn't cut a thread very well and could cause the aluminum to crack from outward pressure.
My first choice would be the taps, the taper is strictly to get a few threads started, continue until you reach bottom, best to put a ring of tape around the tap, equal to the total drilled depth, if you have a mini grinder, you can grind the end of the taper tap , to the start of the first full thread, once you have started, not the same as a bottoming tap but close.

If it was somewhere else at a greater depth you could use a helicoil, trying that here would result in my third suggestion, that is you would likely bust through the housing if that happened I would suggest getting a longer M6 bolt, drill through the housing using a slightly undersized bit, tap it with a full thread. Insert the bolt and snug it by hand, take a file or hacksaw and mark the thread , remove and cut off to this length , file any burrs , if you have a nut, place it on the bolt before cutting, this way if there is a burr you will know by the fact the nut won't come off by hand, or if you are really brave zip cut it off while in place, not a good idea, as any burrs will possibly strip the thread on removal.Next step would be to attach the plate and apply either pro dope ( pipe sealant ) or some other thread sealant / gasket maker. Be aware with this sealant on the threads, tightening torque will be reduced, make it snug, once the pipe dope cures, it ain't moving.}

Last edited by onewizard; 09-07-2016 at 10:57 AM.
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-07-2016, 07:12 AM Thread Starter
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onewizard - thanks again!
It is indeed the screw pictured in the bottom image.

So you're suggesting an M7 7mmX16mm* hex bolt?
1/4 NC taper tap and a 1/4 NC bottoming tap - like so? - but this confusing, should it be a metric tap? :P

*I think i need a shorter bolt too :P 8mm (part number 92153A, 92153-1414 BOLT,SOCKET,6X8)

What did you say about loctite? loctite is a 'non-permanent locking agent', yeah?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this:
Quote:
My first choice would be the taps, the taper is strictly to get a few threads started, continue until you reach bottom, best to put a ring of tap around the tap, equal to the total drilled depth, if you have a mini grinder, you can grind the end of the taper tap , to the start of the first full thread, once you have started, not the same as a bottoming tap but close.
It sounds like you are suggesting starting with the taper tap and finishing with the bottoming tap. You said put a ring of "tap" around the tap, but now I'm figuring it out you mean tape so I can tell when it's in there so I don't bottom it out and keep turning (now I know a blind hole is one with a bottom).

*sigh* :P

Also, how do you suggest I actually get the screw out? Do you think it will come out easily, or just with some pliers, turning it and pulling?

Last edited by supaiku; 09-07-2016 at 08:11 AM.
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-07-2016, 09:08 AM Thread Starter
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None of the local hardware stores have M7 sizing, and M8 seems pretty huge... plus there's no 8mm bolts... so I'm still thinking :P

I was reading through your suggestions... I don't have that many tools :P

I think it might be cheaper for me to just buy a new cover and screw :P

Last edited by supaiku; 09-07-2016 at 10:57 AM.
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-07-2016, 10:23 AM
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And the Saga Continues

Get the bolt out? No mention earlier that it was still in the cover. My suggestion would be to use a socket or wrench and pry with light force under the wire cover / bolt, while turning out.

As to loctite, they suggest applying to all the bolts related to the stator: here is the page:
Stator Coil Installation; Alternator Rotor Removal - Kawasaki Versys Service Manual [Page 517]
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-07-2016, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
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I'm opting for just buying a new stator cover, as the tools and pain the ass of trying to tap it and all that and make sure it works are about the same price as the new part, and sorta iffy. Got a new bolt too just to be sure.

This also frees me up to do whatever I need to this one to make it work and/or try fixing the part without worry about my transport being out of commission.

But the more pertinent question is - can I ride the bike this weekend to get to work...

I suppose it's difficult to gauge if the screw will come out or not, and it seems the risks are pretty high as there's a lot of fast moving parts in there... seems like just 2 of the gears in there run over 80 bucks each... *sigh*

If I put some jb weld all over the in the screw, think it'll stay? I have a new cover, bolt and even plate coming in the mail already... Could even jb weld the plate to the case... but I guess the even the jb weld could come off inside, eh?

It seems like the alternator lead wire bracket is pretty important to keep the stator wire from rubbing on the rotor, yeah?

I haven't even opened it back up (I just put everything back together since I don't actually have a garage to work in), to see about getting the bolt out.



Here's the old stator, which was indeed burnt:





Dropbox link for full res: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wr32bm1ek...BWrQLC9ha?dl=0
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Last edited by supaiku; 09-07-2016 at 11:11 AM.
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-07-2016, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supaiku View Post
onewizard - thanks again!
It is indeed the screw pictured in the bottom image.


What did you say about loctite? loctite is a 'non-permanent locking agent', yeah?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this:


It sounds like you are suggesting starting with the taper tap and finishing with the bottoming tap. You said put a ring of "tap" around the tap, but now I'm figuring it out you mean tape so I can tell when it's in there so I don't bottom it out and keep turning (now I know a blind hole is one with a bottom).

*sigh* :P

Also, how do you suggest I actually get the screw out? Do you think it will come out easily, or just with some pliers, turning it and pulling?
Here is a suggestion, if you have a machine shop nearby, take it there, they may be able to help you. I just verified the length as you stated of 8 mm, that would be a bottoming tap only!

One last suggestion, if you have a drill and a 1/4 taper tap, a 6mm tap would work but finding metric fasteners may be difficult. So what I am going to suggest is buying a set screw that is equal to the distance from the outside cover to the inside edge, plus the thickness of a 1/4 nut. What you do is drill with a #7 drill bit or one size smaller and tap the hole to 1/4 inch NC ( 1/4 X 20 thread pitch or National Coarse ), insert the allen screw with plenty of permanent loctite placed on the last 4 threads as you screw it in from outside , you have now created a stud, the loctite acts as a sealant and prevents the stud from turning once cured


So about a hour later you can proceed with putting the nut on inside, using blue non permanent loctite, FYI when assembling any of this, use brake cleaner to remove any traces of oil or lube, otherwise it may not set properly.

FYI this is a 18/8 stainless set screw, I included a link so you understand and as a example, a 1/4 NC thread pitch 20 would be a number 7035 for 1 inch long,on the site
https://www.boltdepot.com/Set_screws...4-20.aspx?nv=l


Last edited by onewizard; 09-07-2016 at 11:08 AM.
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-07-2016, 11:18 AM Thread Starter
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This seems like a good solution, no?
https://www.amazon.com/TIME-SERT-Met...ds=helicoil+m6

And why not use a Helicoil?
https://www.amazon.com/Helicoil-5546...RQ48FA0W5THN2W

UPDATE:
Decided to get the Time-Sert kit, and fancy new drill from Amazon with overnight shipping and see how rearing goes, if I'm lucky I can get it repaired before the weekend and before the new stator cover arrives and just re-sell or see about returning the replacement parts.

onewizard, I'm a bit confused by your last suggestion, are you suggesting a set screw from the side? That's a neat one.

Ultimately, I'm just gonna leverage amazon's overnight shipping and I think the Time-Sert may be the best possible option next to replacement anyhow (though price wise, it's only marginally better than replacement).

Last edited by supaiku; 09-07-2016 at 12:03 PM.
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-07-2016, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps0pf0yrrq.jpg
Have a look at the above picture, I think you are referring to the below picture, which has a locating pin in the bottom.
http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...1&d=1300053225

If it is the second picture:
Well I did more research and realized my original suggestion may not work, because the tap drill for M6 is larger than#7.Rather than delete I thought I would leave it contained in {}. So the best option is to get a 7mm X 8mm hex bolt ( readily available size is M 7X8mm), get the taps as suggested below but M7. I have included a tap drill chart, in reality, very little force is required as this plate is to hold the wires toward the housing, this bolt is at right angles to the force applied, as is the pin in the bottom, manual says not to apply a locking agent such as loctite, JB weld might have worked, although I would take a chance, not because of the wire, more so the bolt coming out and getting in the gear box CRUNCH
Tap Drill Chart

Note My suggestion is to go with a M7 taper and bottoming tap, However
the outside diameter of a M6 bolt is .233 inches, a 1/4 bolt is .250, however it likely will be .245 , so you would have a gain of about .006 per side of thread---not nearly enough. One other thing, measure the depth of the hole to the top and compare it to the bolt length, it might be deeper than the bolt length of the M6 X 16 mm . You could then get a longer M6 and cut the bolt shorter to match the depth.


{the bolt is a M6X8mm, I am going to suggest if you are really careful, you could buy a 1/4 by 5/8 hex bolt, or a 1/4 by 3/4 hex bolt and washer it down to 5/8. You need a 1/4 NC taper tap and a 1/4 NC bottoming tap. This is a blind hole, 1/4 turn past bottom and you strip the threads. There is another thing you could try, and that is a 1/4 self tapping hex bolt X 5/8, be aware that this is hardened, it is not meant to give a full depth thread, and any taping into aluminum requires lube and patience, plus it doesn't cut a thread very well and could cause the aluminum to crack from outward pressure.
My first choice would be the taps, the taper is strictly to get a few threads started, continue until you reach bottom, best to put a ring of tape around the tap, equal to the total drilled depth, if you have a mini grinder, you can grind the end of the taper tap , to the start of the first full thread, once you have started, not the same as a bottoming tap but close.

If it was somewhere else at a greater depth you could use a helicoil, trying that here would result in my third suggestion, that is you would likely bust through the housing if that happened I would suggest getting a longer M6 bolt, drill through the housing using a slightly undersized bit, tap it with a full thread. Insert the bolt and snug it by hand, take a file or hacksaw and mark the thread , remove and cut off to this length , file any burrs , if you have a nut, place it on the bolt before cutting, this way if there is a burr you will know by the fact the nut won't come off by hand, or if you are really brave zip cut it off while in place, not a good idea, as any burrs will possibly strip the thread on removal.Next step would be to attach the plate and apply either pro dope ( pipe sealant ) or some other thread sealant / gasket maker. Be aware with this sealant on the threads, tightening torque will be reduced, make it snug, once the pipe dope cures, it ain't moving.}
These are great suggestions.
On old school Suzukis, for stripped 6mm cam cap bolts, 1/4-20 (self tap bolts) got many riders out of a bind and lasted forever. No drilling, no tapping... just carefully screw in the self tapping 1/4-20 bolt.
Note: Later on, if the head was off for whatever reason, it was time to tap, helicoil, etc.

I still have a full deck.
I just shuffle slower.
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-07-2016, 11:22 AM
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Garage
Selling a stator in the "For Sale" classifieds. Not trying to hijack this, but my post did get bumped down within a very short time and I'm not sure that it was seen by very many here.
Thanks.
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-07-2016, 11:32 AM
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Helicoil / Thread repair
https://www.amazon.com/TIME-SERT-Met...vert-amazon-20

Helicoil is a brand name that first invented a thread repair method.
Will not work because you don't have the depth or the outside diameter of material to work with.

My last suggestion of a stainless 18/8 set screw will definitely work provide you are careful not to over torque the nut when assembling. From the outside you will see a stainless set screw you never saw before, total cost would be less than $20, if you have the tap and drill bit less than $1 provided you have loctite.
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