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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-24-2015, 09:07 PM Thread Starter
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Handling Fixed

Some time ago I mentioned that when I applied front brakes on my '15 V 650 mid corner it would stand up quite dramatically. I knew it shouldn't be like that. It also did not lean into a corner as it should. Felt as if it had very flat tyres.

A couple of theories were put forward on this site, including my own. None of them were correct.

Turns out that the chain alignment marks on my bike are anything but accurate. I'm now using a laser chain alignment tool (in this case Profi CAT, but there are others on the market) to align the sprockets, chain and hence the wheels.

The bike is transformed. It turns into corners without any complaint, and there is very little tendency to stand up mid corner. Just the way its sposed to be.

I'm old enough to remember when no-one trusted the chain alignment marks on swing arms, but this is the first time for quite a few years that I've had the issue. Must have been either a Friday or Monday bike.

BTW, bike now has over 13k kms on it. Still love it.

Regards,

BruceC
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-24-2015, 10:08 PM
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You know, I've always just "eyeballed it..."

and then one day I bought "Motion Pro's" chain alignment tool when I was down at the local bike shop getting some S100. I was off far enough that I always use that tool from now on whenever I touch the rear axle.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-24-2015, 10:34 PM
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Turns out that the chain alignment marks on my bike are anything but accurate. I'm now using a laser chain alignment tool (in this case Profi CAT, but there are others on the market) to align the sprockets, chain and hence the wheels.

The bike is transformed. It turns into corners without any complaint, and there is very little tendency to stand up mid corner. Just the way its sposed to be.

I'm old enough to remember when no-one trusted the chain alignment marks on swing arms, but this is the first time for quite a few years that I've had the issue. Must have been either a Friday or Monday bike.
I never trusted them either. I typically measured the centers of the swingarm bolt to the axle.

I had my new V1k lowered. Didn't think to mention the chain and they didn't think to adjust it either. About 1200 miles in, it occurred to me that it was too tight. Because I lowered it, I took off the center stand. I use regular old bike stands to jack it up. Problem is, the ginormous exhaust hangs right in the way of the axle on the right (brake) side when the weight of the bike presses against the raised swingarm.

Being an impatient type, I loosened the chain with the left adjuster before I figured out how I was going to diddle with the right one. Then it occurred to me to measure the nut to nut distance of the adjustment screw. Seemed that after I adjusted the left side it was about equal to the right side.

Rode fine before and still rides fine now. Chain is not so tight, so I feel a little better about it. I might have to score me a nice titanium Arrow pipe for it, as paying the dealer to change the tire every time would irritate me, plus I like Arrow pipes.

So after that long winded diatribe, I have a question. Is the nut to nut distance between your adjuster screw the same now?
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-24-2015, 11:08 PM
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never trust those alignment marks... there just someones scratches

yes im a guy.
Silvie=latin for. Of the forest /woods. Fox= Vulpine (also my middle name)

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"closed mindedness causes bliss in simple minded people"
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-25-2015, 02:43 AM Thread Starter
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... So after that long winded diatribe, I have a question. Is the nut to nut distance between your adjuster screw the same now?
If I understand your question correctly, then the answer is "No".

I'm assuming you are asking if distance between adjuster nut and axle nut on both sides of swing are are now the same. No. They are out by the same amount that the marks are out. The assembly that holds the adjuster mechanism, and axle, is welded on to the end of the swing arm during manufacture. Murphy's Laws comes into play - if it can go wrong, it will.

What we really need to be identical is distance between the swing arm pivot and the axle on both sides. That's pretty much impossible to measure on the V 650. Frame gets in the way.

BruceC
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-25-2015, 05:02 AM
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I also have the Profi CAT laser tool great and easy to use.

a few months ago I got to reading how to do a wheel alignment with stings, and also use sliding spike on a rod to measure swing arm axel to rear axel as alignment methods than use the alignment marks.

I spent over an hour trying to align the wheels ala string method... I got it perfect by the book. took it for a ride and it was meh! but the chain became real noisy. put the Profi CAT back on the rear sprocket and the chain alignment was out about 3-4mm !!!

So now I'm just sticking with the Profi CAT laser chain alignment method to get it right.
Handles like a dream
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-25-2015, 07:45 AM
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If I understand your question correctly, then the answer is "No".

I'm assuming you are asking if distance between adjuster nut and axle nut on both sides of swing are are now the same. No. They are out by the same amount that the marks are out. The assembly that holds the adjuster mechanism, and axle, is welded on to the end of the swing arm during manufacture. Murphy's Laws comes into play - if it can go wrong, it will.

What we really need to be identical is distance between the swing arm pivot and the axle on both sides. That's pretty much impossible to measure on the V 650. Frame gets in the way.

BruceC
I guess I'm making the assumption that both of our bikes adjust the axle the same way. On the V1k, the axle/nut has nothing to do with it besides requiring loosening. There is a single screw with two nuts on it. The nuts can be adjusted so that they are far away from one another (tightens chain) or close to one another or anywhere in between. In any case, after I adjusted the chain side, I noticed that the distance between the nuts on both sides of the bike were equivalent even though I couldn't adjust the muffler side with it hanging in my way. I spun the tire, watched the chain to ensure it tracked straight, tightened up the axle nut and called it a day.
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-25-2015, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by silviefox View Post
never trust those alignment marks... there just someones scratches
True True, as far as I am concerned they might as well not even be there I never go by them.

Or was that look THEN leap?
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-25-2015, 08:50 AM
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If the bike's frame is straight either way should work. Because the wheels are farther apart than the sprockets you have more accuracy. Also there is a little more tolerance for misalignment for the chain.

I have been using a variation of the string method, the florescent tube method.

I use a couple of 8' florescent light bulbs held to the rear wheel with a couple of rubber bands around both tubes, one in front and one behind the rear wheel.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-25-2015, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
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I guess I'm making the assumption that both of our bikes adjust the axle the same way. On the V1k, the axle/nut has nothing to do with it besides requiring loosening. There is a single screw with two nuts on it. The nuts can be adjusted so that they are far away from one another (tightens chain) or close to one another or anywhere in between. In any case, after I adjusted the chain side, I noticed that the distance between the nuts on both sides of the bike were equivalent even though I couldn't adjust the muffler side with it hanging in my way. I spun the tire, watched the chain to ensure it tracked straight, tightened up the axle nut and called it a day.
OK, got you. But the answer is still "No".

Problem occurs in front of the adjusting nut where the assembly is welded to the main swing arm. There can be differences where, exactly, these assemblies are welded and, therefore, the overall length of each side of the swing arm.

BruceC
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-26-2015, 09:29 AM
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Great topic.

After watching some you tube's on the "cat toy" laser model and the Motion Pro, it prompts some DIY ideas. I think a magnet JB welded to a laser pointer might do the same thing, and the Motion pro is a good initial idea, but I think the rod is too short. It could likely have greater accuracy if it was longer, like the distance between front and rear pistol sights vs. rifle sights, the longer the span, the greater the accuracy. Time to dig around on the workbench for ingredients for a home-brew version of one or both...

Interesting stuff tho, thanks for posting.


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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-26-2015, 10:36 AM
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My question would be, why are you on the front brake in mid-corner?
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-26-2015, 12:01 PM
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Yep.
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-26-2015, 01:47 PM
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Uh oh. I tightened my chain, and I might have thought by 2013 they would have figured out how to make them accurate. apparently not now I need to buy the alignment tool.
Side note: a while back I noticed that my tires make a loud humming noise from 52 mph to 64 mph and I have no idea why. I figured it was a tire pressure issue. checked all that and im good there. I am guessing the misaligned rear axel is the culprit. Could this be the problem, or is this common with the stock tires? I never really noticed before, but I used to have music in my old helmet, and now I don't use that so I hear more rattles and buzzes.

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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-26-2015, 03:50 PM
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I have the motion pro alignment tool but it is not highly accurate. If you want accuracy the only way I know is to use string. See YouTube how to videos. I was still way off using the alignment tool when I checked it with string.
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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-01-2015, 11:30 PM Thread Starter
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My question would be, why are you on the front brake in mid-corner?
I'm not in normal riding.

But, occasionally there may be emergency situations where I have to apply brakes in mid corner. I like to know what the bike will do in these situations, so I experiment with a new bike.

The V was not nice in this situation. After aligning the wheels properly it now behaves as it should. So, IF I need to apply brakes in mid-corner I now know its not going to spear me off the road on the outside of the corner.

Good to know this

BruceC
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-02-2015, 01:02 AM
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I used a straight edge on the rear sprocket to check it. Rear wheel was toe out to the right by halfway between 2 lines, or 2.5mm which corresponds to about 0.5 degree... It's much more comfortable to ride since, and no more cramps in the upper back and right arm, as I used to ride sitting a bit to the right on the seat to balance it out.
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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-02-2015, 01:41 PM
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My question would be, why are you on the front brake in mid-corner?
You DON'T use "trail-braking"...? I NORMALLY use brakes in corners....


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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-03-2015, 09:43 PM
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You DON'T use "trail-braking"...? I NORMALLY use brakes in corners....

Me too
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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-04-2015, 07:59 PM
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I trail brake, but by dragging the rear. I never use the front brake for trail braking.
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