FlexFuel Motorcycle - Kawasaki Versys Forum
 
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-24-2009, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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FlexFuel Motorcycle

I was surfing and found This I had a flexfuel truck a while back and of course now i have a versys which is my only means of transport and i love it. The The Titan Max is good idea to bad kawasaki cant make the versys run on E-85 or Propane for that matter
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-25-2009, 07:39 AM
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Ethanol has 15% less energy than Gasoline so running ethanol gets you 15% less mileage if you were running 100% E.

I was on an interstate ride to Memphis on my cruiser. I was getting 140 miles on the tank before I had to switch to reserve. I filled up with 10% ethanol and only got 130 miles before reserve. I filled it up the same, rode the same on the highway averaging 70 mph and the difference was noticeable. And I paid the same amount for less mileage!
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-25-2009, 07:42 AM
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And if you ran it on Bio-diesel it would smell like you were riding a french fry!!!!

Steve

I bought a motorcycle because my wife said that I couldn't! Now I have two and she still says I can't have another one!
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Sounds like a challenge to me!

Now I have four!
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-25-2009, 10:48 AM
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E-85 is wonderful. You can safely run what would otherwise be insane compression ratios. The octane is better than race gas but at a much cheaper price. What you lose in energy from the alcohol, you gain back in power and efficiency from the compression. The problem is the flex fuel option. In order for an engine to be able to run on regular pump gas, compression ratios have to be relatively low, negating the benefits of E-85. Then all you do by running E-85 is lose power and efficiency.

Back Off! I'm Already Riding Way Beyond My Abilities.


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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-25-2009, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by potus2012 View Post
E-85 is wonderful. You can safely run what would otherwise be insane compression ratios. The octane is better than race gas but at a much cheaper price. What you lose in energy from the alcohol, you gain back in power and efficiency from the compression. The problem is the flex fuel option. In order for an engine to be able to run on regular pump gas, compression ratios have to be relatively low, negating the benefits of E-85. Then all you do by running E-85 is lose power and efficiency.
Well stated. My question is for flex-fuel cars in Brazil. They can run any mix from 100% Gasoline to 100% Ethanol.

Do those engines do anything with compression when they burn different fuels. In other words, can the on-board computer system determine the fuel mixture and then affect the engine operation based on the fuel to gain the benefits of the additional octane of the Ethanol.
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-25-2009, 11:15 AM
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Well stated. My question is for flex-fuel cars in Brazil. They can run any mix from 100% Gasoline to 100% Ethanol.

Do those engines do anything with compression when they burn different fuels. In other words, can the on-board computer system determine the fuel mixture and then affect the engine operation based on the fuel to gain the benefits of the additional octane of the Ethanol.
There is no effective way to change compression ratio to match the fuel you happen to use, but if you design the engine to run on high octane fuel, the losses from going to high ratios of ethanol are smaller. If you combine that with a "smart" engine management system that changes the timing to take advantage of the fuel you are using, you lose less power and efficiency than you would using if the engine was designed to run on regular gas and a mix of gas/ethanol.

Still, Brazilian market cars usually make less power than the gasoline only version made for other markets using the "same" engine. I'm guessing they don't design for highest possible compression to allow use of lower octane gasoline if needed. In Brazil the cost difference between ethanol fuel and gasoline was significant enough that the slight drop in mileage still resulted in savings to the consumer at the end of the trip. That's probably the biggest difference between ethanol made out of sugar cane vs. corn based bio-fuels.

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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-25-2009, 11:47 AM
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There is no effective way to change compression ratio to match the fuel you happen to use, but if you design the engine to run on high octane fuel, the losses from going to high ratios of ethanol are smaller. Gustavo

Turbo/supercharger with variable wastegate/popoff valve settings. It could be done but making it stupid proof might be a challenge.

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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-25-2009, 02:16 PM
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Turbo/supercharger with variable wastegate/popoff valve settings.
Yeah, that's probably the "simpler" solution. Variable pressure forced induction. Many small European manufacturers are starting to use small turbo/super charged engines again, so there are probably quite a few cars that could be relatively easy to modify. Not many turbo/super charged bikes, though. The Japanese didn't have much success with them the early 80's, but then, the control technology has changed enough that it may be feasible to do now.

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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-25-2009, 06:52 PM
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seems like a cool little bike.


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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-25-2009, 07:20 PM
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Ethanol loss in mileage is between 20 to 30% compared to Gas. (I know I drive a flex fuel SUV and stopped using e85 a long time ago) This limits the range of any small fual tank vehicle significantly. There is a gain of between about 5% in hp while using ethanol due to it's higher octane. Any gas engine can be modified to use ethanol. The on board computers on almost all modern engines will adjust the timing and fuel mixture to take advantage of the higher octane. The modification necesary to use ethanol is not much to the engine but to the fuel delivery system. Ethanol is corrosive and water soluble. You can put ethanol in a standard vehicle and it will likely run fine. Until the fuel delivery system start corroding and breaking apart. Brazil is standard ethanol fuel is e95 not e100. Until very recently Brazil had no significant sources of oil but lots of sugar cane. This prompted the goverment to push for the ethanol alternative successfully. Since gas is much more expensive in Brazil (through tariffs and taxes) the ethanol option is a good alternative. However, Brazil is paying a very high price in environmental impact in its production. In the US ethanol is made out of corn which yields a lot less fuel per acre of land than sugar cane. Prodution of ethanol has been subsided in the last few years to help the farmers and help the industry take off the ground. However, what makes ethanol expensive for all of us is not the lower yield or the subsidies. It is the 54 cents per gallon tariff brazilian ethanol pays when it enters the US. If that tariff goes away the US will be flooded with cheap brazilian ethanol and the price of ethanol in Brazil would go through the roof. What we will pay for it will probably be the destruction of forested lands in Brazil and a few more US farm bankrupcies. Ethanol although an alternative we should support is far from a good alternative at this time. What we need to advocate is for more conservation.

So let's all do our part, ride more drive less have lot's of fun in the process. :-)
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-25-2009, 07:23 PM
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E-85, yeah, that's good, let's grow gas instead of food.
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