Wiped out @ the Track - Kawasaki Versys Forum
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-25-2009, 12:28 AM Thread Starter
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Wiped out @ the Track

G'day all,
Had a blast @ my 1st track session today in Perth W.A on the Versys and then I friggen came off.
Had been on the track 1 month before, though it was called Advanced ride day, cone work, braking etc, then track fun.

The coming off was ok, bent handlebars though rideable, crash bars saved the day , what gets me is I’m not sure why ? Scraped the pegs a few times and started to try n hang off more. Have about 8mm unused rubber front n back so I’m going to take off the lowering footpeg blocks I have on.
A few things , in the morn I changed the front preload to 2 out from stiffest (sorry Gustavo) , Trying to make it so the bike didn’t dive so much under braking,and rebound damping. Had about 20mm sag , maybe not enough front sag but testing couldn’t seem to bottom out.
Had standard 5 clicks rebound in the rear and 30mm sag. Weigh 90 kilos.

Now I don’t know if the above had anything to do with the off, actually felt good to ride. Trying to play it back in slowmo, peg scraped then off. Obviously I coulda been hanging off more, though I also think in some turns I was slightly twitching the handlebars, line correcting….i know I know, bad move Godzilla… not sure if the front went under 1st or the rear.
Also been looking at pics and vids of motard riders, not that he V is a supermoto, but upright seating position. Seems some riders hang off sportbike style and some seem to be seated upright knees out….or stylishly Backing it in. more practice I spose…
Also have pilot power rear, scrubbed in and standard front...
And had dropped PSI by 2. 30F 34 R

Mr 133bhp racing @ Cadwel Park seems to do awesomely well and not hanging off half his bUm. How do you do it man ?

At the time I was bottom cheek off, knee down helmet almost touching down, erm, ok, well, it felt like that anyways
So what do u guys do @ the track, upright, knee out or sportbike style hanging off ???
Anyways, bum on the bike after sorta straitening the rearbrake and onto the track, but no matter how many times I yelled in my helmet to go dog go, my testicolas had shrunk and I rode awfully, plus the jessies had reversed track direction… Anyways, few beers under my belt and something of a rant, though if anyone has some insights I’d be glad to hear em…. Really want to go again, just that feeling of not knowing what I happened ?
Maybe scraped peg and unloaded the front ?
Anyways, this happened on Wed and today I fitted new bars, and all seems good for another track day Sat, a different track, larger , not with sharp cnrs like the below.










Last edited by Boogs; 09-25-2009 at 12:31 AM.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-25-2009, 12:52 AM
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Sorry about your horrific shunt. Glad you still had a good time.
"Also have pilot power rear, scrubbed in and standard front..."
Sounds like that not-as-good-as-the-rear mis-matched front tire let you down. The lower footpeg mount certainly contributed to the loss of traction as well... I'm 86 kg and really like my forks at 3 turns away from max preload and 7/8 turn out rebound damping, but with heavier 15W fork oil. (sorry Gustavo) I did need to have it at max preload and 1/2 turn out rebound damping with stock 10W oil. Rear is at preload #3 with 12 clicks out rebound damping.

Last edited by invader; 09-25-2009 at 01:03 AM.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-25-2009, 01:02 AM
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Man, what a bummer. Glad that you came out OK, and actually, the bike doesn't seem that bad either, mostly cosmetic stuff.

I think the sag change was misguided (as in it has a negligible effect on diving under braking), but I doubt it's the cause of the crash. What it could have done is raise the front, giving you slightly slower steering, but since you didn't have that much sag in the rear, the overall effect should have been of giving you more clearance more than anything else - which is actually a good thing for track work. Lowering blocks obviously make you touch down earlier, so that is a factor.

A couple of thoughts from that - first, do the pegs fold easily with the blocks installed? If you hit hard (and unexpectedly) it could have upset the suspension and unloaded the front. There is another scenario that is typical - a lot of people when they feel the pegs scrape, they tend to chop the throttle. This is probably the worst thing you can do, you are at a fairly steep lean angle and you suddenly overload the front (by choping the throttle you transfer more weight forward). The front loses traction and you lowside.

As for riding style, unless you have a lot of clearance and are well versed in riding a bike that is drifting, moving your weight to the inside makes more sense on the street. You don't have to drag your knee, just moving the inside cheek off the seat and leaning your upper body into the turn goes quite a ways to reduce the required lean angle. It doesn't look as cool as crouching and putting your knee down, but technically, it's more effective in reducing the lean angle.

Gustavo

PS - You ever mention stiffer suspension in conjunction with adding/reducing pre-load, I'm going to have to come to W.A and give you a physics lesson that will bore you to death...



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Last edited by Gustavo; 09-25-2009 at 01:08 AM.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-25-2009, 01:42 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Sorry about your horrific shunt. Glad you still had a good time.
"Also have pilot power rear, scrubbed in and standard front..."
Sounds like that not-as-good-as-the-rear mis-matched front tire let you down. The lower footpeg mount certainly contributed to the loss of traction as well... I'm 86 kg and really like my forks at 3 turns away from max preload and 7/8 turn out rebound damping, but with heavier 15W fork oil. (sorry Gustavo) I did need to have it at max preload and 1/2 turn out rebound damping with stock 10W oil. Rear is at preload #3 with 12 clicks out rebound damping.
Cheers mate
The mismatch tires seem to be a big debate, though i will be soon grabbing a front P.Power. I like the idea of a matching pair...
With your suspension settings do you know how much sag you are getting ?
I have the rear at 3 and now 5 clicks rebound, though I'm not sure where to put the rebound?
Followed an article i saw, Turn rebound all in, bounce the shocks, slow coming up.All the way out, fast up. Dial in so when pushing down quick, doesnt rise above normal resting point.
Now if i had a better feel for what is going on I could figure it out better

Gustavo
Quote:
do the pegs fold easily with the blocks installed?
i seem to remember they folded well , I took them today off so canna test that 1.
Quote:
a lot of people when they feel the pegs scrape, they tend to chop the throttle
i know what you mean. 1st time @ the track a month back I took off the hero blobs after almost coming a cropper. This time when i scraped I felt ok, rather good actually and didnt cut the gas, though that was the 1st time scraped on the right side....mebbe ?
Also it's a quick transition left to right, caught me out a few times not getting off the bike quick enough after the left. Might've unsettled things ? or missing the right turn corner marker and trying to throw the bike over too sharply.
Quote:
PS - You ever mention stiffer suspension in conjunction with adding/reducing pre-load, I'm going to have to come to W.A and give you a physics lesson that will bore you to death..
Pleeeeease, I'll be good from now on...
Pity there is not a 3rd V forum, we could have triple posts up
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-25-2009, 04:57 AM
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Did the lower footpeg MOUNT even bottom out and scrape before skidding out, or is its damage just a result of the wipe-out? I haven't checked my sag but will asap. I have it set up so front and rear preload is just barely enough to keep it from bottoming out. Rear rebound damping is backed off way out to 12 clicks away from stiffest, or 'H' for hard. (yes, you can say stiffest when referring to damping ) Too much rebound damping hangs up the suspension in a compressed position between bumps, keeping it from extending to absorb the next road surface irregularity. It allows more compliancy at #3 preload, instead of needing #4 preload to prevent bottoming out. It's still well controlled without any wallowing. You could try it at 8, 10, and 12 clicks out to see how it feels on the track and decide from there...

Last edited by invader; 09-25-2009 at 05:17 AM.
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-25-2009, 05:09 AM
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The ends of your lower pegs look like mine and I just ride around the mountains in North East Victoria, not the race track.
Glad you did not injury yourself to badly.


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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-27-2009, 01:30 PM
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The Hepco Becker bars did their job it looks like. Glad I have them on my V.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-30-2009, 11:27 AM
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Glad you are ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustavo View Post
You don't have to drag your knee, just moving the inside cheek off the seat and leaning your upper body into the turn goes quite a ways to reduce the required lean angle. It doesn't look as cool as crouching and putting your knee down, but technically, it's more effective in reducing the lean angle.
I agree.



Interesting you don't mention anything about the track temp or if your tires were properly warmed up. What part of the day did this happen? How many laps did you do before this happened? The 34psi on the back seems a bit high, if you don't allow the rubber to streatch and flex to generate heat per conditions of the track your tires won't warm up properly and you will lose traction. What did your back tire look/feel like after? Was the rim warm?

My experience at the track with accidents like yours 95% of them have all pointed to improperly warmed up tires, too much psi, no tire warmers on DOT or slicks, not giving street tires a couple of laps before letting loose etc..

fitz

"One day last week I was riding my bike, I can't remember exactly what day it was, maybe Tuesday, around 3:00pm or was it 4:00pm, not sure but I think it was 3:00pm when I noticed the fuel gauge started blinking, you know the last bar on the bike telling you need to get gas, so I looked for the next gas station, right down the road was two gas stations an Exxon and a BP, both had exactly the same price, so I couldn't decide, so I just picked one, after filling up I continued on my way." --fitz
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-02-2009, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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G'day,
School hols so tardy in replying
Quote:
Did the lower footpeg MOUNT even bottom out and scrape before skidding out, or is its damage just a result of the wipe-out? I haven't checked my sag but will asap. I have it set up so front and rear preload is just barely enough to keep it from bottoming out. Rear rebound damping is backed off way out to 12 clicks away from stiffest, or 'H' for hard. (yes, you can say stiffest when referring to damping ) Too much rebound damping hangs up the suspension in a compressed position between bumps, keeping it from extending to absorb the next road surface irregularity. It allows more compliancy at #3 preload, instead of needing #4 preload to prevent bottoming out. It's still well controlled without any wallowing. You could try it at 8, 10, and 12 clicks out to see how it feels on the track and decide from there
Footpeg mount damaged from slide and cheers for the suspension ideas.

Quote:
The ends of your lower pegs look like mine and I just ride around the mountains in North East Victoria, not the race track.
Glad you did not injury yourself to badly.
Oh you bloody hoooon Great place to ride in ur part of the world...

Quote:
Interesting you don't mention anything about the track temp or if your tires were properly warmed up. What part of the day did this happen? How many laps did you do before this happened? The 34psi on the back seems a bit high, if you don't allow the rubber to streatch and flex to generate heat per conditions of the track your tires won't warm up properly and you will lose traction. What did your back tire look/feel like after? Was the rim warm?
Warm enough day, 4th session on the track, 4-5 laps already in, so tires would be toasty.


Anyways, 3 days later had another trackday, very fast track
It wasnt until the 2nd last session that i finally felt some confidence , kept thinking about the off a few days earlier....
Realized a few things, I turn 2 early on some corners and since the off, i tended to look 2 often right in front of my wheel. I know it's a no no, just kept doing it, wierd
And the track having a photographer is an awesome learning tool. In the pic I definately thought i was heaps lower Also a few of us without kneesliders were asked not to stick our knee out, good idea but harder to slide yer bum off the seat Looking for new leathers........
Also added a pic of a self confessed track addict, now he's nice n low on his buell
ah well, well get there




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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-02-2009, 08:47 PM
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Sorry about the get-off. but hey, before you wadded it up, how did it handle on the track?
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-02-2009, 11:05 PM Thread Starter
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how did it handle on the track?
I'd changed my settings and new handlebars for Sat and it felt planted. I wasnt going flat tack though it did seem a bit harder to turn in quick, 1st time @ that track so need to go again
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-03-2009, 12:16 AM
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Boogs, good to see that you are back on the track and working on those
riding skills.

Quote:
And the track having a photographer is an awesome learning tool. In the pic I definately thought i was heaps lower Also a few of us without kneesliders were asked not to stick our knee out, good idea but harder to slide yer bum off the seat Looking for new leathers........
While you don't really need to stick your knee out it makes little sense to tell
you not to do it because you don't have sliders. As you figured out from the
pics, there is a long way to before your knee would touch down by itself.
You have to make a conscious effort to get to that angle.

Quote:
Also added a pic of a self confessed track addict, now he's nice n low on his buell,
Look at how much (or little) he is hanging off the bike. That's a significant
reason he is carrying that steep angle (no doubt he was moving, but if he
was hanging off as much as you seem in the picture above, his angle would
not have been that steep). Take a look at other pictures from that (or other
trackdays). The guys who are really low, usually don't hang off much. If
you have the clearance and tires, it's less work doing it that way, and it
makes transitions side to side a lot easier.


Gustavo


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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-03-2009, 01:44 AM Thread Starter
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Look at how much (or little) he is hanging off the bike. That's a significant reason he is carrying that steep angle (no doubt he was moving, but if he was hanging off as much as you seem in the picture above, his angle would not have been that steep). Take a look at other pictures from that (or other trackdays). The guys who are really low, usually don't hang off much. If you have the clearance and tires, it's less work doing it that way, and it makes transitions side to side a lot easier.
I'm starting to see that now, and the transition from side to side if not smooth can be trouble..
They really drummed into us to slide bum cheek off, knee out and chest almost on the tank,head low... I've been pondering all this for awhile, our sort of bike compared to sportsbike and lean angle-body position..
From all that i've seen, most seem to ride like the Buell fellow, yourself and 133bhp...
Anyways, just chopped down my new protaper bars, time to test them... off for a spin
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