Will the ABS keep you from endoing/stoppying? - Kawasaki Versys Forum
 5Likes
  • 2 Post By onewizard
  • 1 Post By twowheeladdict
  • 1 Post By twowheeladdict
  • 1 Post By _Big_Mac_
  • 1 Post By invader
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-16-2019, 06:36 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
ATCKirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Porterville, CA
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Will the ABS keep you from endoing/stoppying?

I'm just curious, I can't seem to find anything conclusive on the internet. Does anyone know if the 650 will Endo/Stoppie? Also will the ABS prevent it if it is capable? I think the wheelbase is probably short enough that it would and I'd rather not find out the hard way.

Thanks for any info. Kirk.
ATCKirk is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-16-2019, 06:46 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Reading, Pa
Posts: 697
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
I would say with abs no but I could be wrong.

Last edited by turn8a; 02-16-2019 at 06:49 PM.
turn8a is online now  
post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-16-2019, 07:17 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Kitchener Ontario
Posts: 7,075
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATCKirk View Post
I'm just curious, I can't seem to find anything conclusive on the internet. Does anyone know if the 650 will Endo/Stoppie? Also will the ABS prevent it if it is capable? I think the wheelbase is probably short enough that it would and I'd rather not find out the hard way.

Thanks for any info. Kirk.
I wish I knew what you are asking.
onewizard is offline  
 
post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-16-2019, 07:24 PM
Member
 
Doug Just Doug's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Newark, Delaware
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
I'm guessing he's asking if it's possible to do a stoppie with ABS, and if ABS would prevent a stoppie-gone-wrong (endo). If so, the answers are Yes and No.

2015 Versys 650 ABS
AMA, MSTA, Retreads

Nat'l Cycle "Sport-Touring" screen; Givi hand guards; BMW Sport Grips; Omni-Cruise throttle lock; Motowerk mirror extenders, side stand foot & highway pegs; Denali Mini Soundbomb horn; SW-Motech top rack, Quick-Lock Evo side racks, wide foot pegs & GPS shelf; Givi E-22 side cases & V-47 top case; RKA 13L Shiloh Road tank bag; Hyper-Lites; Sargent seat; Shoodaben ECU reflash; decalectomy.
Doug Just Doug is offline  
post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-16-2019, 07:49 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Kitchener Ontario
Posts: 7,075
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Multi tasking now. All I can say, a motorcycle safety course and skill can't be replaced by ABS. Piling on the front brake on a curve on wet road, may be saved by ABS,same goes for rear, ABS only reduces locking up , being aware of what is happening in front, behind, beside, leaving room to maneuver , plus ABS = safe riding.
Fastoman and Duffy like this.
onewizard is offline  
post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-16-2019, 09:34 PM
Super Moderator
 
Fastoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ipoh.Perak.Malaysia
Posts: 6,958
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
ABS prevent lock up only but if coupled with traction control , then its different ball game.
Fastoman is offline  
post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 02:21 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Poland
Posts: 232
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATCKirk View Post
I'm just curious, I can't seem to find anything conclusive on the internet. Does anyone know if the 650 will Endo/Stoppie? Also will the ABS prevent it if it is capable? I think the wheelbase is probably short enough that it would and I'd rather not find out the hard way.

Thanks for any info. Kirk.
It's very reluctant to do a stoppie.

I managed to lift the back wheel a bit (like 10cm?) when braking heavily from high speed - ex. full effort from 140 km/h to 50 km/h. Note that I was *trying* to get it to happen, had properly warmed up tires, clean asphalt etc.
I've never managed to get a typical "traffic light" stoppie when the front wheel actually locks. The ABS kicks in, the front wheel just inches forward and the rear stays down. Even when actively trying, I couldn't get a locked-wheel stoppie. In comparison, I have no problems doing that with my non-ABS bike.

The ABS works well, won't let you lock the front wheel (unless the rear locks up in the exact same time, then the ABS may theoretically think you're at full stop). If you're going fast enough and brake with enough feeling to keep the wheel rotating, the rear may lift off.

But in general, I've had a bunch of emergency stops on this bike and never had a slightest indication of an imminent, unintended stoppie. I wouldn't worry about going over the handlebars.

2015 Versys 650
_Big_Mac_ is offline  
post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 07:31 AM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Kitchener Ontario
Posts: 7,075
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Big_Mac_ View Post
It's very reluctant to do a stoppie.

I managed to lift the back wheel a bit (like 10cm?) when braking heavily from high speed - ex. full effort from 140 km/h to 50 km/h. Note that I was *trying* to get it to happen, had properly warmed up tires, clean asphalt etc.
I've never managed to get a typical "traffic light" stoppie when the front wheel actually locks. The ABS kicks in, the front wheel just inches forward and the rear stays down. Even when actively trying, I couldn't get a locked-wheel stoppie. In comparison, I have no problems doing that with my non-ABS bike.

The ABS works well, won't let you lock the front wheel (unless the rear locks up in the exact same time, then the ABS may theoretically think you're at full stop). If you're going fast enough and brake with enough feeling to keep the wheel rotating, the rear may lift off.

But in general, I've had a bunch of emergency stops on this bike and never had a slightest indication of an imminent, unintended stoppie. I wouldn't worry about going over the handlebars.
I failed to mention one thing, using engine braking, it is very easy to break traction on the rear wheel, during a emergency stop I employ everything , with my hand on the clutch lever, at a certain point it becomes bakes only.In over 45 years of riding, I have never hit or been hit by a car, I have had numerous close calls with cars blowing through a stop sign, stop light, passing a car with imminent head on collision about to happen forcing me onto the gravel shoulder at 80 KM/HR. I have gone down 3 times on gravel roads due to 4 or more inches of ungraded loose gravel.
I have gone down off roading with my XL250 R and my DRZ400S, which is expected. I have had a rear blow out on a multi lane highway at 130 KM/HR with a tire tube failing , with a greyhound buss on my ass , the below 80 KM/HR was the challenge, as centrifugal force no longer helps . Managed to keep it upright and got the tube patched and on my way, for those that know the area it was outside Orillia Ontario on HWY 11.

I guess the key to many of these statements is know your bike, take a motorcycle safety course if you haven't, the ABS helps override human error, above all else, enjoy your ride ATGATT.
onewizard is offline  
post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 08:02 AM
Member
 
twowheeladdict's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,282
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
Multi tasking now. All I can say, a motorcycle safety course and skill can't be replaced by ABS. Piling on the front brake on a curve on wet road, may be saved by ABS,same goes for rear, ABS only reduces locking up , being aware of what is happening in front, behind, beside, leaving room to maneuver , plus ABS = safe riding.

Unless the bike has cornering ABS you can definitely wash out the front end if you grab too much brake while leaned over. It also has a tendency to stand most bikes up, if you aren't ready to put more countersteer pressure on the bars at the same time, you will lose your line and run wide.

Before the ABS kicks in it has to sense wheel lock and then starts backing off on the brake. This works great if you are going in a straight line, but once the tire is sliding sideways you are now at the mercy of friction and whether the tired "hooks up" with the pavement again.

This is not unlike when leaned over and traversing a 'tar snake'. You might get some slip and if you don't panic the tire will usually hook back up once past the 'tar snake' and you continue on your way.
onewizard likes this.

My Versys Travels:


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
twowheeladdict is offline  
post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 08:09 AM
Member
 
twowheeladdict's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,282
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATCKirk View Post
I'm just curious, I can't seem to find anything conclusive on the internet. Does anyone know if the 650 will Endo/Stoppie? Also will the ABS prevent it if it is capable? I think the wheelbase is probably short enough that it would and I'd rather not find out the hard way.

Thanks for any info. Kirk.
It really depends on the ABS system. Kawasaki alone has several different systems they employ on their range of motorcycles.

If you notice rolling stoppies are done with the wheel still moving so there would be no reason for the front ABS to kick in if the Rear/Front ABS act independently of each other. Once the system notices that the speed as dropped to a predetermined level the ABS is no longer active.

Now, the rear wheel off the ground and spinning at a different speed than the front wheel might cause the system to do something you might not expect. We would really need to see the detailed function of the ABS as defined by the design team to know what it is supposed to do in certain situations.
onewizard likes this.

My Versys Travels:


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
twowheeladdict is offline  
post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 11:28 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Poland
Posts: 232
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by twowheeladdict View Post
Now, the rear wheel off the ground and spinning at a different speed than the front wheel might cause the system to do something you might not expect.

Aye, some bikes go into panic mode, the ABS warning light pops up and the system gets disabled (until engine restart). This is actually a useful method of disabling an "always-on" ABS on certain machines - do a prolonged wheelie with the front wheel stopped, or a long rolling stoppie and you go into "hooligan mode" with no assists Whether that also applies to the Versys, I don't know. I don't wheelie it.

To answer the original question again - don't be afraid to squeeze the lever as strong as it goes when you need a panic break, the ABS will not let you get catapulted unless there's some freak combination of events. An unintended stoppie is unlikely on an ABS-equipped Versys despite the short wheelbase. Running into an obstacle because you were to timid on the brake is much more likely.

Best thing to do would actually be to go out on an empty street and practice full effort braking. Get a feel for it. Brake until the ABS kicks in and then some, see how it reacts and how much stopping force you get before that happens. Notice how the bike gets a bit squirmy as the frame compresses, how the rear wiggles under your butt. Try out immediate and gradual lever motion, note how easier it is to trigger the ABS when mashing the lever as opposed to squeezing it slowly. Make sure you're able to do full-force braking without putting weight on the handlebars, you're supposed to feel your thighs do a workout. Incorporate your rear brake, it helps to stabilize the bike even though the rear wheel gets lighter. Do it at least once at the beginning of each season when it gets warm and dry, to reacquaint yourself with just how hard the bike can brake.
Fly-Sig likes this.

2015 Versys 650

Last edited by _Big_Mac_; 02-17-2019 at 11:48 AM.
_Big_Mac_ is offline  
post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 02:33 PM
Member
 
Fly-Sig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Salt Lake City
Posts: 1,013
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Big_Mac_ View Post
Aye, some bikes go into panic mode, the ABS warning light pops up and the system gets disabled (until engine restart). This is actually a useful method of disabling an "always-on" ABS on certain machines - do a prolonged wheelie with the front wheel stopped, or a long rolling stoppie and you go into "hooligan mode" with no assists Whether that also applies to the Versys, I don't know. I don't wheelie it.
Rumor has it you can disable the ABS by holding the front brake so the bike doesn't move and then spin the rear wheel. On dirt it would be easy to accomplish this. I, however, like my ABS to work even on the dirt. As a low skill off road motorcyclist (but avid mountain bicyclist) the ABS is much more of a help than a hinderance to me.
Fly-Sig is online now  
post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 03:31 PM
Super Moderator
 
fasteddiecopeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kelowna, BC - summer; Florence, AZ - winter
Posts: 17,680
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
I DON'T think you could get into a "stoppie" situation on an ABS bike, as stopping the "stoppie" is the ABS's job.

The only stoppie I remember ever doing was while riding in N WA on my Bandit 1200S (which had six-piston fronts) when a deer ran out right at me, and I just GRABBED the front brakes and PULLED. THE SOUND OF MY ENGINE REVVING as the wheel got airborne convinced the deer to really light its afterburners, and we MISSED each other.


Ed
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


'08 V AZ, '15 V650LT BC
Ride to D2D 2013, June '13

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Ride to D2D 2015, June '15

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Ride to D2D 2016, June '16

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
fasteddiecopeman is offline  
post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 12:01 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
ATCKirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Porterville, CA
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for the info guys! I was reading differing opinions on the net about bikes in general with ABS and whether they would endo/stoppie or not. It sounds like some of you have actually pushed it hard enough to find out. I've tried some hard braking just to see what the ABS would do and as soon as I feel the chatter I released. I didn't really want to hold it long enough for the back to come up if it was so inclined.

I love the ABS, especially on the rear because it lets me know when the back is getting a little light because I can feel the back start to chatter and I feel like I'm braking at a reasonably aggressive level for fun street riding.

I've been riding dirt for years and just getting comfortable again on the pavement and still getting used to the incredible traction compared to in the loose stuff.

Kirk.
ATCKirk is offline  
post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 04:50 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Poland
Posts: 232
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fasteddiecopeman View Post
stopping the "stoppie" is the ABS's job.
Technically, ABS's job is to stop the front wheel from locking, so you should still be able to do a rolling stoppie, when the front wheel is still rotating but the braking is nevertheless strong enough for the back wheel to lift. This is possible to do with an ABS-equipped V650 but just barely Or maybe I'm not skilled enough to do it consistently.

A stoppie where the front wheel stands still and you're being catapulted over the handlebars - I'm pretty sure it's nigh-impossible and the ABS will intervene. At least in intervened every time I tried (and I have!).

We should all keep in mind what the ABS knows and what it doesn't know. An ordinary ABS, like we have in the Versys, only sees the rotation speeds of both wheels and it must base its decisions on that information. In particular, the ABS doesn't know the bike's orientation, or whether it's entered a stoppie stance. A simplified algorithm of how the ABS might "think" is:
1. If both wheels are rotating, we're braking correctly. Don't intervene.
2. If both wheels are stopped, we're probably standing still. Don't intervene.
3. If one wheel is rotating and the other one is not, the non-rotating wheel has likely locked and I need to release some pressure from its' brake. Intervene.
(If I released the pressure to the locked wheel but hasn't started rotating, and the other one still is, I've no idea what's going on, there might be a malfunction or a sensor error. I don't understand how the front wheel hasn't resumed rotation along with the back wheel despite releasing brake pressure. This is what happens when you do a burnout and the confused ABS disables itself.)

In a non-rolling stoppie, the ABS will see the situation in point 3 and will release the front brake a bit. Unless the rear wheel happens to lock in the exact same moment as the front, which would put it in scenario 2. That's the theoretical possibility I see for ABS to not intervene correctly during a panic brake, but I've never seen it happen in practice - there are probably extra precautions taken to not confuse the two scenarios, otherwise it'd be easy to lock both wheels when using both brakes on a slippery surface. Maybe the speed reduction on both wheels must be gradual enough for the ABS to assume scenario 2?

TL;DR - no need to worry about unintended stoppies. It's hard enough to make one happen intentionally

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATCKirk
I've tried some hard braking just to see what the ABS would do and as soon as I feel the chatter I released. I didn't really want to hold it long enough for the back to come up if it was so inclined.
If you feel the chatter on the brake lever (ie. ABS is intervening), there's virtually no way for the rear to lift at this point. You're not going to get enough braking force when the ABS is reducing pressure to avoid locking, even when using performance sintered brake pads.

In fact, it's a good idea to practice "riding it out" when you feel the lever chatter, as it's what you're supposed to do in a panic brake. You might have muscle memory from riding non-ABS bikes that you need to release the grip on the lever when the front locks. That's correct for those bikes, but with ABS, you're not supposed to. It's better to keep the brake squeezed (and feel it pulsing) than to try and outperform the system with your hand. If the ABS has kicked in, you evidently braked too hard in the first place, you've likely wrongly estimated the available traction - what are the chances you're going to re-estimate it better now than a bespoke system that updates itself dozens of times per second, especially considering you're now likely adrenaline-pumped and tense?

Learn to trust the technology. It's not foolproof, it won't brake for you, it won't change the laws of physics, but when it kicks in you're most likely beyond the point of applying riding technique and now in the realm of panic braking It's gonna consistently outperform you in that particular situation because that's what it's designed for. Train accordingly, teach your muscles to recognize that lever chattering and not be afraid of it or surprised by it.

Also, you probably know this already if you've ridden in dirt, the rear brake is really paramount for keeping the bike going where you want during deceleration. I depend on mine heavily, especially knowing that I have the safety net of the rear-wheel ABS if I overdo it. Using both brakes keeps the bike planted and stable instead of front-heavy and squirming. It's probably easier to practice emergency stops with both brakes than just the front as you don't get the "my rear is overtaking me" feeling.

2015 Versys 650
_Big_Mac_ is offline  
post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 07:52 AM
Member
 
invader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kapuskasing Ontario Canada
Posts: 7,841
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
ABS prevents loss of front wheel traction during braking. It therefore does not impede the possibility of performing a stoppie… What will help is a sticky front tire and strong enough brakes.

By the way, ABS or not, replace them OEM tires ASAP for good quality ones if you wish to reduce the likeliness of a horrific shunt.
_Big_Mac_ likes this.
invader is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Kawasaki Versys Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Convert from non ABS to ABS? timrk2001 Modifications - Performance - V-650 22 11-08-2012 10:39 PM
Where do you keep.... offcamber General Discussions - V-650 20 09-19-2012 02:22 AM
Will 09 V (Non ABS) discs fit 2011 V (ABS)? VOz Technical Discussion - V-650 5 08-01-2012 11:38 AM
Poll: How do you keep your hands warm? Sprocket Modifications - Performance - V-650 22 04-04-2011 01:30 PM
ABS or not ABS? ericf General Discussions - V-650 11 05-14-2008 04:11 PM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome