snell 2005 vs. snell 2010??? - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-13-2011, 09:28 PM Thread Starter
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snell 2005 vs. snell 2010???

good evening,

maybe i missed it.....could someone really explain the differance???....look at the snell website and (since i'm not an engineer or wiz bang guy) just a simple answer will do for me....i have 2 snell 2005 helmets...i should be ok by what i read at their website and do not want to test them...looks like they test the same way for the helmet ratings...tried a brief search, but didn't find what i wanted...

any help is ok and thanks in advance...

no flames for me.....

pura vida,
FREE TEXAS,
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-13-2011, 10:18 PM
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The Snell 2010 rating is significantly different than the 2005 rating.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-13-2011, 10:30 PM
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There's a good write up about it on webBikeWorld here, and a less technical discussion here.

My understanding of the above:
- Snell M2005 did not meet ECE 22-05 standards due to different testing methods, so they couldn't be legally sold in Europe for street use.
- Another hurdle was that for smaller helmets, too much energy was transmitted.
- Snell M2010 is now tested using test methods compatible with ECE 22-05.
- Snell M2010 transmits less energy for smaller helmet sizes than M2005, but doesn't handle "the big bang" as well.

I read the article in Motorcyclist mentioned in the second link, and the general conclusion there (as I recall) was that Snell protected well against the big bang, but in general transmitted more force than other standards for the more typical smaller falls. As a result, it was felt that for more typical impacts, DOT and ECE 22-05 protected better than Snell.

For the most part, if you were comfortable with your M2005 helmet, there's no real incentive to stop using it. And any helmet that meets DOT, ECE 22-05, or Snell M2005 / M2010 is better than nothing.

Disclaimer: I'm not an engineer, and I don't play one on TV. The above is just my opinion.

Cheers,
Dave C

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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-14-2011, 06:14 AM Thread Starter
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good morning,

thanks for the info....looks like the second article above answered some of the questions...

i do wear ATGATT(even at 105 temp) some of my buddies at work think i'm crazy...i think they are crazy for not, but thats another story..

there seems to be a number of brand helmets for sale with the 2005 sticker...at a decent price...I DO NOT WANT TO TEST THEM!!!

BTW...i did find some interesting videos on youtube about testing....seems ECE testing is not as intense as DOT since they only drop the ECE test once.....DOT twice, unless i missed something...

i'm grateful Snell is, apparently, (independent and non profit,) for their testing...another is, i believe, Shark rating...

seems different countries have different standards for safety standards...

thanks again for the info and i truly hope NONE OF US have to see if they really work...

pura vida,
FREE TEXAS,
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-14-2011, 07:05 AM
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This is easy. Forget about Snell ratings. Simply buy a DOT ONLY helmet. There have been many studies proving these to be the safest helmets to wear if you crash under 150 MPH. Your salesman will argue this point as he tries to sell you a $500 Shoei but you cannot argue with scientific testing cross referenced with actual crash data. Turns out they are the least expensive. Get a nice one for $79.
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-14-2011, 11:01 PM
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Blipco, I'd personally like to see the data that supports your statements. I have read a lot about helmet safety and everything that I have read is that DOT is an ancient standard that has not been updated in 40 years, and has very little modern science behind it.

Personally I like using the http://sharp.direct.gov.uk web site. It is done by the UK government and actually rates helmets on a 5 point scale. No Pass/Fail like DOT, ECE 22-05, or Snell. Only trouble is many helmets are not available here.

Price has very little to do with helmet safety. My $120 Caberg trip is a 5-star helmet. My $800 Schuberth C3 is a 3-star helmet. Now my Caberg fogs up like crazy, has no ventilation & is loud as heck. Where my C3 is quiet, fog free and well ventilated. So Guess which one I wear?

Steve

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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-15-2011, 06:23 AM Thread Starter
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good morning,

lonerockz,
i went to the website(sharp) you suggested again, i made a typo error, and looked up a couple of helmets....some of the most popular brands didn't fare to well...boy was i surprized

some of the less expensive did well, some of the more expensive didn't do to well...

just a note of interest, all that i looked up did well on frontal impact and rear....the weak link was side impact..

i did note all helmets models were not available for testing...seems not sold in UK...for whatever reason...marketing, i guess...

i have decided to just look up brands that I FEEL comfortable with, sold locally, check 'em out and try to purchase locally...since almost all helmets are made in other places(china, etc)

thanks to all for the input....seems the differences in snell 2005 and snell 201 have to do with "smaller" helmet sizes...

thanks again...great people here...

pura vida,
FREE TEXAS,
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-15-2011, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonerockz View Post
Blipco, I'd personally like to see the data that supports your statements. I have read a lot about helmet safety and everything that I have read is that DOT is an ancient standard that has not been updated in 40 years, and has very little modern science behind it.

Personally I like using the http://sharp.direct.gov.uk web site. It is done by the UK government and actually rates helmets on a 5 point scale. No Pass/Fail like DOT, ECE 22-05, or Snell. Only trouble is many helmets are not available here.

Price has very little to do with helmet safety. My $120 Caberg trip is a 5-star helmet. My $800 Schuberth C3 is a 3-star helmet. Now my Caberg fogs up like crazy, has no ventilation & is loud as heck. Where my C3 is quiet, fog free and well ventilated. So Guess which one I wear?
Lonerockz,I have saved a couple of articles and read many more. The lengthiest and the one that caused a lot of stir was the June 2005 Motorcyclist article. The story is called "Blowing The Lid Off". The safest helmet tested was the 79.95 Z1R-ZRP. It delivered fewer G's to the headform than any other helmet made. These are the results of scientific testing with specialised equipment NOT conjecture. I bought one when I took a trip cross country. It was no better or worse than other helmets as far as clarity and sound but not as plush as expensive helmets. Most riders and common sense will tell you that the more money you pay, the better helmet you will get, but, if better means safer than buy the cheapo DOT ONLY helmet. I don't know if this article can be found online but it is worth a read.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-15-2011, 07:56 AM
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http://www.dadsvintageads.com/catalo...ne_Back_Issue_

This company still has back issues. There may be others.
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-15-2011, 08:05 AM
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I think that's the article that started Snell down the path of the revamp of the M2010 rating.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-15-2011, 08:55 AM
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lonerockz,

Google: "blowing the lid off helmets" written by Dexter Ford @ Motorcyclist magazine, 2005.

Here is a copy I found at Google:

http://www.motonation.com/images/Blo...ist%5B1%5D.pdf

22 pages of compelling information and rebuttals.....

John in AZ
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-15-2011, 12:17 PM
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I would completely agree that some DOT only helmets are some of the safest in the world. However the statement that Blipco made was "Simply buy a DOT ONLY helmet." As if all ALL DOT only helmets are great. That somehow the DOT stamp of approval made it a great helmet. There is no evidence that supports that. Now if he had said go buy a "$79.95 Z1R-ZRP" its very safe and proven to be and does not have a SNELL rating, then I would take no exception.

DOT is an ancient standard. Some very, very crappy helmets can pass it. The SHARP rating is the only one that I know of that says "hey this helmet is safer than this other one." DOT wont tell you that. The price of the helmet wont tell you that. But bottom line is any helmet is better than no helmet.

Steve

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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-15-2011, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonerockz View Post
I would completely agree that some DOT only helmets are some of the safest in the world. However the statement that Blipco made was "Simply buy a DOT ONLY helmet." As if all ALL DOT only helmets are great. That somehow the DOT stamp of approval made it a great helmet. There is no evidence that supports that. Now if he had said go buy a "$79.95 Z1R-ZRP" its very safe and proven to be and does not have a SNELL rating, then I would take no exception.

DOT is an ancient standard. Some very, very crappy helmets can pass it. The SHARP rating is the only one that I know of that says "hey this helmet is safer than this other one." DOT wont tell you that. The price of the helmet wont tell you that. But bottom line is any helmet is better than no helmet.
I remember reading the 2005 article, and I think the ECE 22-05 standard is pretty good. The worrisome part of the DOT standard is this quote from the article:

The DOT standard, like laws against, say, murder, also relies on the honor system; that is, there's only a penalty involved if you break it and sell a non-complying helmet and get caught. Manufacturers are required to do their own testing and then certify that their helmets meet the standards.

At least with Snell, ECE, etc, you have an independent body certifying the helmet.

Like I mentioned earlier though, I'm not going to throw out my Snell M2005 helmet just because there's a new rating. However, my next one will meet ECE 22-05 or Snell M2010.

Cheers,
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-16-2011, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonerockz View Post
I would completely agree that some DOT only helmets are some of the safest in the world. However the statement that Blipco made was "Simply buy a DOT ONLY helmet." As if all ALL DOT only helmets are great. That somehow the DOT stamp of approval made it a great helmet. There is no evidence that supports that. Now if he had said go buy a "$79.95 Z1R-ZRP" its very safe and proven to be and does not have a SNELL rating, then I would take no exception.

DOT is an ancient standard. Some very, very crappy helmets can pass it. The SHARP rating is the only one that I know of that says "hey this helmet is safer than this other one." DOT wont tell you that. The price of the helmet wont tell you that. But bottom line is any helmet is better than no helmet.
DOT testing tests the safety of a helmet in a crash, not the cool paint job. If it passes DOT it IS safe. (I'm not talking about a skull cap with the fake DOT sticker). Your response is pretty typical from somebody who paid a lot for a helmet and found out it's not the best. (I brought the article into the store to show the salesman the Z1R helmet I wanted. He read the G chart than told me the article was wrong. LOL) The original poster was confused by the many ratings on helmets and who can blame him. I was trying to simplify things.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-16-2011, 08:16 PM
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Blipco, every single helmet legally sold in the USA is DOT approved. I take it you feel they are all equally safe?


Here is one on Bike Bandit for only 29.95! You can even see the DOT sticker! Man you wasted $50!




I wish you would actually read my posts... sigh...

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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 05:47 PM
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[QUOTE=lonerockz;162294]Blipco, every single helmet legally sold in the USA is DOT approved. I take it you feel they are all equally safe?


Here is one on Bike Bandit for only 29.95! You can even see the DOT sticker! Man you wasted $50!




I wish you would actually read my posts... sigh...[/QUOT

There is no saying that the helmet shown is not safe but if it is in fact a DOT certified helmet (you have to check with DOT to make sure they actually tested that helmet, not that I don't trust the Chinese manufacturers) it would meet the requirements of a half helmet (which I would not wear). All is explained in the articles. I believe in the scientific test results as there is no "seat of the pants" testing with helmets. For years it was thought a polycarbonate shell helmet and it's protective system was inferior to the exotic composite shell helmets with their related technologies and the way the helmets dispersed energy. Turns out that is not the case. In the end, it is your head and you are free to stick it wherever you want ( sorry, I mean no offense but no way I could let that go). It's great we are able to have a debate over such a topic as this rather than, say, who makes the loudest straight pipes or the best a$$less leather pants, with tassels. Ride safe and lets not put our helmets to the test.
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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
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good afternoon,

AGREED!!!

just note of interest, seems all the bell helmets got 5 stars at the sharp website..it doesn't say how many models they tested..they just list a few(now if i could just figure out which ones they tested....whole different name in UK)...also a great explanation of how they test ...

i do belive Bell has improved greatly....will be my next one....

i don't want to test it either....

pura vida,
FREE TEXAS,
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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-20-2011, 07:47 PM Thread Starter
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good evening.

jumped at a Bell Star "ace of spades" xxl at motorcyclecloseouts....$150.....

snell2005...dot...hope it fits as good as my scorpion 700....

thanks for all the input

no flames and for damn sure NO TESTING EVER.......

pura vida,
FREE TEXAS,
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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-25-2011, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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good evening,

just got my Bell Star, around noon today....(motorcyclecloseout)...wore it around the house for about 1/2 hour....changed the cheek pads and its a lot better feeling.....went with the firm pads INCLUDED in the box....travel bag is AWSOME...lined with an extra zippered external pocket...and an EXTRA shield and a pocket for it....plus a small container(silicone) for the vents and a wind deflector for race days(which i'll never use)

now for the graphics.....i thought it was a glossy finish, however it is a matt finish and i like it...and after looking at it for about an hour, i CANNOT find any flaws at all...all the pin striping is flawless and in perfect place.....

shipping was timely and precise...

will go for about 100 mile trip tomorrow to the dealer for my corbin seat and oil change(amsol syn).....

3000 miles....2 oil changes....48 mpg...

pura vida,
FREE TEXAS,
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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by lonerockz View Post
Blipco, every single helmet legally sold in the USA is DOT approved.
Where did you get that idea? Helmets do not have to meet any standard to be sold in the US, there are tons of novelty helmets on the market.

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