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  #1  
Old 01-12-2013, 01:44 PM
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Default Gas In The Crankcase

I need an expert opinion. This has nothing to do with my boringly reliable Versys. I have a Triumph Daytona with a fuel injected triple. Today, as I was changing the oil I noticed it poured out thin. Yep, gas in the oil.

I have the tank sitting off the bike now to see if fuel is leaking out of it's pressure fittings (then sneaking by the injectors) and filling up an engine the way a carbureted bike can do. The fittings are not leaking.

Therefore, the only way I can think of that the fuel would get in the motor is with a sticky injector that has been filling the motor while the bike is being ridden. But wouldn't such a thing be noticable while the bike is running?

The bike starts and runs normal. No blue smoke or black smoke and it never smelled rich while running. I'm not sure as how to diagnose this. I will remove the airbox and hook up the tank and actually look to see if one or more of them is spewing gas. I Stabil my fuel and these injectors were professionaly cleaned prior to installing them in the bike.

Any input will be appreciated. Mark.
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  #2  
Old 01-12-2013, 04:46 PM
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check your plumbing of the lines, it sounds like a fuel return line may be plugged into a vacuumn fitting when last assembled..

Quote:
Originally Posted by blipco View Post
I need an expert opinion. This has nothing to do with my boringly reliable Versys. I have a Triumph Daytona with a fuel injected triple. Today, as I was changing the oil I noticed it poured out thin. Yep, gas in the oil.

I have the tank sitting off the bike now to see if fuel is leaking out of it's pressure fittings (then sneaking by the injectors) and filling up an engine the way a carbureted bike can do. The fittings are not leaking.

Therefore, the only way I can think of that the fuel would get in the motor is with a sticky injector that has been filling the motor while the bike is being ridden. But wouldn't such a thing be noticable while the bike is running?

The bike starts and runs normal. No blue smoke or black smoke and it never smelled rich while running. I'm not sure as how to diagnose this. I will remove the airbox and hook up the tank and actually look to see if one or more of them is spewing gas. I Stabil my fuel and these injectors were professionaly cleaned prior to installing them in the bike.

Any input will be appreciated. Mark.
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  #3  
Old 01-12-2013, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter650 View Post
check your plumbing of the lines, it sounds like a fuel return line may be plugged into a vacuumn fitting when last assembled..
The fuel rail is properly connected. I will check other plumbing such as the overflows from the tank but they vent to the air. I cannot overlook anything until I find the problem.

My main question is- How does fuel get into the crankcase with a FI system?
The tank connectors aren't leaking so it must be happening while the bike is running.
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  #4  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:16 AM
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Which Daytona model and year is it? How many miles on the engine, and on the last oil change? What type and grade of oil? How was it broken in?
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  #5  
Old 01-13-2013, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
Which Daytona model and year is it? How many miles on the engine, and on the last oil change? What type and grade of oil? How was it broken in?
this guy know's his stuff and researching..
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  #6  
Old 01-13-2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by invader View Post
Which Daytona model and year is it? How many miles on the engine, and on the last oil change? What type and grade of oil? How was it broken in?
The bike is a 2002 Triumph Daytona 955i. (3 cylinder).
Unfortunately I don't know a whole lot about the engine as I bought it used off ebay. The mileage on it is about 15,000 and I see where you are going. When I recieved the motor, the first thing I did was to inspect whatever oil was left in the motor and filter. All appeared normal. I use 10w40 Mobil 1 and there was only about 400 miles on the oil change since this happened. The bike is not down on power as I can compare it to my brother's who has the same bike. There is no blue smoke (or black) at any time as I would suspect with bad rings or too rich a condition.
On a few occasions the bike would seem to run on two cylinders (only for a few seconds after starting) as I would feel a lurch when the 3rd came online. I attributed this to a faulty connector on the stick coil (one of them has a broken retaining tab) but I think I tie-wraped it. I never gave this much thought as the bike ran so well but apparently it warrants closer scrutiny.
I am going to inspect the airbox and hose routing today as and see if I can watch the injectors at work to see if one or more are stuck open.
Judging by how much oil came out I estimate about a quart of gas in the oil.
I want to see if there is any flooding in the air box and see if the plugged overflow hoses have anything in them. They should be clean as I just installed them. Also there is a servo system to introduce air into the TB's for starting purposes. I need to check that as well.
I will inspect the plugs too.

Another thing. I have no idea whether this happened while riding or while warming the bike up yesterday to change the oil. The bike had been sitting unridden for months but the gas was heavily Stabiled and idled for maybe 15 minutes.

Last edited by blipco; 01-13-2013 at 09:56 AM.
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  #7  
Old 01-13-2013, 11:56 AM
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A quart of gasoline in the oil with 400 miles on it, and it was sitting for how many months? Was the oil level a quart too high (did you drain a quart more than its normal oil capacity)?
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  #8  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by invader View Post
A quart of gasoline in the oil with 400 miles on it, and it was sitting for how many months? Was the oil level a quart too high (did you drain a quart more than its normal oil capacity)?
Yes, the motor takes 4 quarts of oil and I drained about 5. I had a couple of empty I gallon containers to put waste oil in.
I just inspected the airbox and all hoses that may have allowed gas into the crankcase. All seem normal .
I pulled the plugs. Two were a little wet but when I cranked the motor (I just changed the oil again) no gas flew from the cylinders.
I am going hang the tank above the bike and install the old injectors that have been sitting around for a couple of years and hope they work after sitting idle. This time I'll check the headers to see if they are getting hot equally. My stick coil connection was good. I'm hoping there is no repeat of last night. I will try to monitor things. I'm out of ideas, I thought my inspection would show me the culprit.
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  #9  
Old 01-13-2013, 02:30 PM
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I just pulled my "professionally cleaned" injectors and pulsed them with 6 volts. They click away beautifully. I tried the same for the dirty ones I had laying around and the clicks were barely audible so I decided against using them as they are probably gunked up.
At this point I'm going to put the motor back together as it was, crank the motor without the stick coils hooked up and look down the TB's to see if the fuel spray is equal and normal. Whatever that is but maybe I can spot an anomally.
I appreciate any input.
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  #10  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:22 PM
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Edit: Apparently fuel can slip by your injectors. I did not know that.

Last edited by blipco; 01-14-2013 at 08:58 AM.
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  #11  
Old 01-14-2013, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blipco View Post
Edit: Apparently fuel can slip by your injectors. I did not know that.
Mark - I wonder if you might have a 'tight' valve (intake?) on the cylinder that you suspect of miss-firing. That way gas could get into the cylinder while it's not firing...?
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My KLR trip to Alaska, YT, NWT and BC in summer 2009
http://www.klr650.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69383

My Versys trip to D2D 2013, and Alaska, June '13
http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...ad.php?t=33153
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  #12  
Old 01-14-2013, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by fasteddiecopeman View Post
Mark - I wonder if you might have a 'tight' valve (intake?) on the cylinder that you suspect of miss-firing. That way gas could get into the cylinder while it's not firing...?
It is not that the bike is misfiring, it runs perfectly. I checked the valves before I put the motor in the bike and all were within spec though one set was at the lower end of it's range. I spoke to the guy at WitchHunter Performance where I had these injectors cleaned and he told me to hook them back up and look in the TB's to see which is leaking. I read of a story on the CycleWorld site of some guy that had the same thing happen only he hydrolocked his motor. I was fortunate to discover mine with a gas smell when I removed the tank to replace a stater solenoid. An injector can stay stuck open and bleed into your motor the same as a carburetor. I take good care of my stuff too. Fuel stabilizers even during riding season as I have multiple bikes.
From now on I will check the oil level at the start of each riding season and take a whiff as well.
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  #13  
Old 01-14-2013, 08:33 PM
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A leaking injector could bleed off some fuel down the inlet and into cylinder via intake valves then past piston rings into crankcase (and/or hydrolock) until fuel pressure in the fuel rail tapers off... Valve clearance adjustment has nothing to do with it.
A whole quart of gas in the oil over only 400 miles is a lot. If so, maybe it was vandalism or a mistake? Were you able to check if an injector drips fuel after engine is stopped? It does always start well and runs well?

Last edited by invader; 01-14-2013 at 09:15 PM.
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  #14  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
A leaking injector could bleed off some fuel down the inlet and into cylinder via intake valves then past piston rings into crankcase (and/or hydrolock) until fuel pressure in the fuel rail tapers off... Valve clearance adjustment has nothing to do with it.
A whole quart of gas in the oil over only 400 miles is a lot. If so, maybe it was vandalism or a mistake? Were you able to check if an injector drips fuel after engine is stopped? It does always start well and runs well?
+1 on that

Further more, the fact that the bike is running great doesn't fit with a rich mixture or leaky injector

Good luck with your problem, hope you'll figure it out soon !!!

LOP
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:58 AM
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I don't know if it happened during rides or if it happened while it was put up in storage over the past few months. (I took the bike off the road because my hands cannot take the extreme sport riding position. It took me that long to accumulate the parts I needed to swap to handlebars). I've hooked up the tank to see if I can reproduce and verify the problem.

http://forums.cycleworld.com/showthread.php?t=251326 This helps explain it.

Last edited by blipco; 01-15-2013 at 09:01 AM.
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  #16  
Old 01-15-2013, 10:35 AM
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Yeah, I considered the possibility that the fuel in the tank could drain itself by gravity and under atmospheric pressure through the pump, fuel rail, and leaking injector(s) over time, beside from the initial fuel rail pressure... Additionaly, pressure does always build up in the fuel tank when parked with fresh fuel, especially when it gets warmer. Fuel cap vent valve normally releases some pressure whenever it reaches a certain level.

Last edited by invader; 01-15-2013 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
Yeah, I considered the possibility that the fuel in the tank could drain itself by gravity and under atmospheric pressure through the pump, fuel rail, and leaking injector(s) over time, beside from the initial fuel rail pressure... Additionaly, pressure does always build up in the fuel tank when parked with fresh fuel, especially when it gets warmer. Fuel cap vent valve normally releases some pressure whenever it reaches a certain level.
It is a rare occurance I guess but when I talked to the guy at WitchHunter he sounded like it was nothing unusual. I never heard of it. I tried to imagine a scenario where I could have goofed with the oil but no way. The bike is always in a locked place when I'm not using it. As for sabotage? Who, me? I'm the nicest guy in the world .
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by invader View Post
... Additionally, pressure does always build up in the fuel tank when parked with fresh fuel, especially when it gets warmer. Fuel cap vent valve normally releases some pressure whenever it reaches a certain level.
My suggestion is: NEVER fill your bike up and then park it because of the gas-venting problem.

I ALWAYS plan to ride at least 15 miles once it's filled (and USUALLY much more!), so that will be in the morning after I've just left camp when going on an 'adventure'....
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My KLR trip to Alaska, YT, NWT and BC in summer 2009
http://www.klr650.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69383

My Versys trip to D2D 2013, and Alaska, June '13
http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...ad.php?t=33153
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:20 PM
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My suggestion is: NEVER fill your bike up and then park it because of the gas-venting problem.

I ALWAYS plan to ride at least 15 miles once it's filled (and USUALLY much more!), so that will be in the morning after I've just left camp when going on an 'adventure'....
I believe I found the faulty injector. I will have it sent out to be tested and cleaned if it is still usable.
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:22 PM
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I believe I found the faulty injector. I will have it sent out to be tested and cleaned if it is still usable.
Good luck.
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