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Burnt Stator / Versys 650 / Stator Testing/ Stator Failure Series Regulator

129K views 601 replies 90 participants last post by  Gerinemo 
#1 ·
I checked the manual before posting, not very informative if you don't know anything about it. The most accurate test is what you have already done, and it sounds like you have shorted turns, however it wouldn't hurt to try this again. What you need to realize is this is a 3 phase power source, the white wires need to be identified as white A, white B and white C. , make a drawing of the quick connector and designate on the drawing, and mark the readings down in accordance to your drawing.Measure A to B , B to C and C to A. You should have three readings all very close, like within a couple volts, and as a side note, idle RPM is fine since this is the AC output open circuit voltage, manual says something like 42 volts at 4000 rpm. If one reading is considerably lower then the stator is screwed, you can test this with a ohm meter with the motor off, check the same three and mark down the ohm readings, IMO this is a very inaccurate test. The manual says 0.18 to 0.27 ohms, most test leads of meters are greater than this, only advantage would be to prove that it is open.
:cheers:
 
#280 · (Edited)
Just as a FYI - here's the pic of the wires posted by smiley


and here are the wires on my '09 - note the TWO white wires (NO trace), black w/ yellow trace, and three blacks


so I'm making an assumption that the "brown" wire you have is one of the white wires I have (the smaller gauge one), but I will check whether the larger white is HOT w/ ignition OFF.
Black yellow is ground, three blacks are the 3 phase from stator, one white should be a 12 gauge wire and is the positive BE AWARE this is live ALL the time, unless you disconnect the battery, ( I thought you soldered this or are these before pictures). The switch wire , brown on our bikes is only live when keyed on, and isn't used on after market regulators unless you want to use it for the relay, will hopefully be able to eliminate the use of a relay.
 
#282 ·
What I meant was the plug that is attached to the Kawasaki regulator, about 1 inch of wire, going by my memory, which isn't always as accurate as a tape measure.
Here it is attached to oem R/R
 

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#283 ·
Well, my stator was burnt, no doubt.
I replaced the R/R with a salvage one before we decided that the stator was bad. Replaced the battery as well.
50k from the original equipment seems pretty reasonable, felt no need to rewire the bike.
What did you do for a stator?


And as far as OEM goes, the Delta wound stator would have a failure rate of about 85% less if a series regulator was used.
One problem is the magnet wire is brought behind the windings for connection purposes, in this process, some stators have line connection wires passing through poles adjacent to the connection for output wiring. Through heating cooling and vibration, a short occurs, once you have shorted turns it is only a matter of time and the winding fails completely. The coating on the magnet wire is around .0015 of a inch.

As to rewiring, most after market stators are star wound with the same wire gauge as OEM delta, they also have less copper because they are star wound ( less turns per pole). They will output exactly the same power as the delta, HOWEVER, if using OEM regulator , you are running the magnet wire at 200% of OEM. By using a series regulator, actual load is around 50 to 60% of maximum output, which brings loading back within limits of the wire.
 
#284 ·
I have a 12 versys with 4000 miles. I'm leaving in about 2 weeks on a 3-6k ride depending on how I hold up.
I have a SH775 kit ready for install.
My question is should I install it so close to a long ride? I have installed a Sparkbright light and new battery, all voltages look good, off, idle and at rpm.
I would say no, no worries, sent a email to you. Very close to being able to make things really simple to change over. My plan is to go for a ride tomorrow and use up some fuel so I can lift my tank up and get at the relay box. After that I hope to eliminate my relay on the compufire and post some simple and quick change overs.
I know it is the pin #2 , black wire, on the headlight / ECU relay, center 6 pin socket, center bottom pin. I know that it rings to the right vertical pin of the 3 phase socket from the stator ( Fast Eddie confirmed this, if I am wrong I think he will correct me). I know that the Polaris draws 2 ma on it's own, however when connected to the 3 phase wiring it draws upwards of 36ma, I suspect the headlight relay being the culprit.

If it is the headlight relay, I have a simple solution, the hard part is accessing the socket under the tank.

All my plastic is siliconed onto the bike as my 07 has stress cracks around the tank mountings of the plastic, been like that since I bought it, the salesman said it was the clear coat, BS , so I siliconed around the tank to help support the plastic, having said that it becomes obvious that I ain't going to get much clearance on my tank without removing all the plastic. I am hoping to get enough clearance to get the relay assembly out, with some of my special tools.
 
#285 ·
SO , in case others haven't been following this, I have solved the discharge problem and also simplified the changeover of regulators. Polaris is simpler, both will save your stator if you still have a OEM stator, both regulators will also allow your after market Y connected stator to last almost as long as your OEM stator.

End Of story:yeahsmile:
I "bow" to your knowledge and your willingness to help those of us who are "electrically-challenged".

:thanx:
 
#286 ·
Thank you for that!

SO , in case others haven't been following this, I have solved the discharge problem and also simplified the changeover of regulators. Polaris is simpler, both will save your stator if you still have a OEM stator, both regulators will also allow your after market Y connected stator to last almost as long as your OEM stator.

End Of story:yeahsmile:
A special thanks to Invader and OneWizard for their input on this problem.
As the SO would say, "you guys must be (electrical engineericals)!
I still keep my V on the tender but as soon as the tank comes back off I hope to do the fix for the high battery drain associated with the CompuFar.
Ride Safe and Highly Charged !
 
#287 ·
A special thanks to Invader and OneWizard for their input on this problem.
As the SO would say, "you guys must be (electrical engineericals)!
I still keep my V on the tender but as soon as the tank comes back off I hope to do the fix for the high battery drain associated with the CompuFar.
Ride Safe and Highly Charged !
If you don't mind taking some plastic off, you don't need to remove the tank, I removed the seat / tank bracket, raised the tank 1.5 inches, and was able to pull the center plug, cut the wire and crimp connectors , put back together.
Having said that, I work in some really difficult situations, many times I need to use a mirror to see the stuff, then the challenge to repair it.
If I get real ambitious I will combine everything under a new heading "regulator change out / after market" or something like that. I am still waiting to hear back from those that are using the Polaris. I just want to make sure this works as well as the compufire before I rubber stamp it.
 
#290 ·
I had a double insulated spade stakon so just added a second spade crimp, as I have a brake flasher and ADDmore light module.
For those that want a quick and simple fix, use one of those trailer splice connectors, all you need is about 40 milliamp for 1 second, to turn on the light, after that it does nothing. You could use the same splice at the headlight relay black wire and then use a third to insulate the cut wire, or tape it.
 
#289 · (Edited)
The wire I used was blue with a red tracer, about six inches from the tail light.This is the brake light.

It isn't 100% for me, as on initial start the headlight comes on automatically once the engine starts, if I key off and back on within 30 seconds, then the headlight remains off until I touch the brakes---******************* I have a homemade electronic flasher and also a Addmore light kit for my Givi cases, so there is considerable feedback in this circuit. I don't really care as once the headlight is on it latches on through the headlight relay, main thing is I am now using a compufire regulator with no added relays and no battery drain. Quite the feeling removing my double relays and wire harness, no longer need a jumper in case the relays failed ( had added spade quick connects and made a jumper with male stakons), so I could pull the connections off the relay and jumper them out, in case of relay failure.

For those that don't care about what turns on your headlight and when it turns on, and you are just starting to do the install, you could use the brown wire from the regulator that isn't used for Polaris or Compufire, and connect that to the black trigger wire #2 pin of the headlight relay ( which needs to be cut as described previously by me). This way, as soon as you key on, your headlight is on, your call, key off and no more drain to the headlight relay, because the brown wire was keyed positive power to drive the electronics of the Versys regulator.

Some on this forum will laugh at what I am about to say, when I had my multiple meters hooked up. and idle was fixed using my idle screw, the first time I thought I was hearing things.I heard idle speed change, that is I heard what sounded like the motor slow down a bit then speed up. I then noticed the speeding up matched the 17 to 21 volts AC on my meters, I also noticed the slowing down directly related to my meters dropping to 13.5 to 15 VAC. ) what was happening was my fan came on, alternator demand increased, when the fan cycled off, alternator demand droped and idle speed increased. ( remember I am using the idle screw , which is a fixed opening, supplying a fixed amount of energy). For those with a Versys OEM regulator, this would never happen, because the stator is at maximum output above 3000 RPM ( 65% around 2000 RPM), so for those that do long distance rides at above 3000 RPM, there will be a slight fuel mileage increase with a series regulator.
 
#410 ·
Brown wire from regulator to black trigger wire

For those that don't care about what turns on your headlight and when it turns on, and you are just starting to do the install, you could use the brown wire from the regulator that isn't used for Polaris or Compufire, and connect that to the black trigger wire #2 pin of the headlight relay ( which needs to be cut as described previously by me). This way, as soon as you key on, your headlight is on, your call, key off and no more drain to the headlight relay, because the brown wire was keyed positive power to drive the electronics of the Versys regulator.
Does this eliminate the need for a diode at the main fuse plug?
Thank you! :)
 
#291 · (Edited)
All I need to know is which brake light wire to splice to...
I edited post 395, easier to find , it was in my first sentence. Only four wires coming from the tail light, ground;license; tail light; brake light ( blue with red tracer)
 
#292 ·
In earlier posts I mentioned having voltage issues since I changed both the stator and the R/R to a CompuFire....:rolleyes:

On the phone w/ onewizard today - did some checks on V AC as well as V DC, checked for a POSSIBLE loose/bad connection - all OK. So, I rigged up my multi-meter to the bike via the 12v DC plug in my dash, put it into my tank-bag, then went for a 40 km ride, opening the tank-bag to check volts every now and then, but particularly IF the volts went into the 12s.

The volts were mainly showing about 13.4 to 13.9 (but 14.26 on the multi-meter) tho' occasionally the indicated volts went down to as low as 12.0 v, checked my multi-meter again - 14.26 v, so my V's digital v meter is toast!

My Alaska/D2D trip is back ON...!

:D
Nice talking with you Ed, dyna beads will be on my list, I love this forum, sharing of knowledge, something you can't put a price on-----I learned something today, and was happy to help out.
 
#293 · (Edited)
Will the headlight relay be overused every time I touch the brakes, and will it take away some power from my brake light and make it a bit dimmer? I suppose not as it is LED... If so, it'd be the only good reason to use the brown wire instead, although having the headlight on before operating the starter is undesirable.
I started out with a short answer, it didn't work, it is below--------short answer,initial pull in of the brake will produce 36 milliamp on the black wire going to pin #2 of the headlight relay, 3 milliseconds after you pull on the brake, there will be 0 current on that wire. The reason is that the headlight latches in through internal diodes and internal connected positive supply that comes from the fused battery circuit.


In actual fact, if you don't have a relay connected and are using either a Compufire or Polaris regulator, and you haven't run the 3 phase wires from the stator directly to the regulator , then you will have about 36 milliamp drain on your battery 24/7, and in reality your headlight relay is also on 24/7.

Real simple test, if you want to verify this and you are about to change wiring as I described, raise your tank, release the locking tab on the centre socket of the relay box, pull it out slowly, you should feel and hear a click, that is the relay dropping out, push it back in part way and you should feel and hear it pull in. Also if you connect a ammeter between the positive post of your battery and the positive connection ( your going to need to disconnect the battery positive), you will read about 36 milliamp, once you pull out that headlight socket, it will drop to about 2 milliamp, ( your clock and ECU require cycling power, average is 2 milliamp, peaking to 13 milliamp for extremely short intervals).

If you still have questions, feel free to ask, for me if I hadn't tested the Polaris on my motorcycle before installing on Smiley's bike , I would have continued to assume the drain was due to the internal electronic circuit of the regulator. It wasn't until after, we did a quick check and current was 38 milliamp , I was scratching my head, but we both wanted to ride so let it go. It was on my way home on the 401 that it dawned on me what the problem was.

Fasteddie accidently bypassed this circuit by connecting his 3 phase stator wires directly to the Compufire regulator with a socket that came with the RM stator. He then had to run a trigger wire to his brake light and connect to the right vertical pin of the OEM 3 phase socket that he had originally taped up.
 
#294 · (Edited)
[/U][/B]
for those interested, I have completely solved the battery drain problem for either Compufire or Polaris. I have also solved the control of the headlight, I am using the brake light to trigger, however there is a flaw in Kawasaki's design, 2 out of three tries the headlight will come on , and in reality it is the starter solenoid that turns it on. It took me a while to figure it out, but the collapsing field of the solenoid is sufficient to pull in the headlight relay, once in it is latched in. I have resolved this with a 1 amp diode across the solenoid coil in reverse polarity. I will post pictures later.It is a 5 minute install and about $0.50 in parts. Now my headlight comes on only when I want it to.

One other point, the trigger wire for the headlight relay carries .038 amps, or 38 milliamps for approximately 3 milliseconds , after that it carries nothing, the relay is latched in using the same positive feed that runs the headlight, and this is done through a internal diode in the relay box.
 
#295 · (Edited)
Will the headlight relay be overused every time I touch the brakes, and will it take away some power from my brake light and make it a bit dimmer? I suppose not as it is LED... If so, it'd be the only good reason to use the brown wire instead, although having the headlight on before operating the starter is undesirable.
]
FYI the brake light wire is blue with a red tracer, access is at rearmost part of wiring harness, 3 wires, ground; tail light and brake.
For those that have either a compufire or polaris regulator and are using the OEM wire harness that went to the regulator, and you haven't isolated the output through a relay-----------YOUR HEADLIGHT RELAY IS ENERGIZED 24/7, it momentarily turns off when the start relay is energized, then on again.
Another way of putting it:
If your headlight is on, the headlight relay coil is energized as well.
For those that skipped my last post::huh:

One other point, the trigger wire for the headlight relay carries .038 amps, or 38 milliamps for approximately 3 milliseconds , after that it carries nothing, the relay is latched in using the same positive feed that runs the headlight, and this is done through a internal diode in the relay box.
 
#296 ·
Thank you onewizard for your efforts and your expertise on the very common problem of stator failure. You have done a service for this forum and have helped me personally beyond measure. As you now know, I am an electrical moron to your wizardry and I have been happy to have my V participate in this project and learn from watching and from listening.

I am confident now that the RM Stator and Polaris r/r replacement for my burnt out stator will be a better choice than OEM, which would be doomed to fail again. I highly recommend to any forum members these adaptations that are outlined in the above posts.
With your help I have updated both posts 387 and 383 C/W pictures, so either regulator should be a snap to install.

:thanx:
 
#297 ·
Thanks to Motojunkee for providing the 2015 manual, and all those others that helped me.
There is a electrical flaw on all years of the Versys, by design, only the output of the stator is to initially energize the headlight relay. In reality, the starter solenoid will also energize it, on a fully charged battery, when you release the start button, 2 out of 3 tries. You can prove this by unplugging your stator, using the connector by the TPS .
Why is this a problem? If you new there was something going wrong with your stator, you might fix it before you set out on a long trip, not having your headlight come on would get your attention.

For those that have switched to either Compu-fire or Polaris, most have added some sort of voltage monitoring system. If you have either regulator, you will need something like Signal Dynamics Heads Up or similar, as the headlight circuit needs to be modified, follow post 387.

I have a quick fix for under $2, post #387, also everything needed in the way of information to install either after market regulator.

:feedback:
Are you going to advise Kawasaki of this flaw you have found, as im sure it will apply to all ER6's and 650R's :clap:
 
#298 ·
I very much doubt I will even get a call back or response, stator failure is well known, my plastic cracked on my 08, dealer said it was my imagination, they didn't honor the sales promotion on my bike when I bought it because it was a used bike with 1 KM on it, that was their excuse.
So this is only a flaw in that the design was for the alternator output ONLY, to switch on the headlight, no output == no headlight, a flaw from the standpoint that if you don't have some means of monitoring your regulator output, you won't know you have a problem until your bike quits and you can't start it because you drained the battery. This could be on a long distance ride, and later you might recall strange things leading up to this event, possibly from weeks before, if you had known, it may have saved your expensive tow home, and you might have completed your trip.
 
#299 ·
and that right there is why i installed a little dash mount volt meter
I have said it before and my favorite is Signal Dynamics heads up. I deal with meters all day, my brain doesn't need to process what 12.99 or 13.4 or 13.9 means, green is 12.9 to 15.2, just the same colour as the traffic lights for GO.:thumb:

Most important is you have something that is reliable and with you, should almost be standard equipment knowing the history of stator failure.
 
#300 ·
#301 ·
#303 ·
Burnt Stators

Thought this might be helpful to others... Through a series of unfortunate events while teaching my son to ride my brand new Versys 650, the bike was laid over. Broken foot pegs, dented muffler, scratched up generator cover, as well as a host of other seemingly minor damage. Didn't seem too serious at the time.

The damage to the generator cover at first look seemed to be purely cosmetic. However, after the wreck, the battery stopped charging. Upon removal of the generator cover, I discovered that the impact had actually cracked the generator cover internally which misaligned the stator causing it to rub on the rotor. Ended up having to replace both rotor and stator as well as the cover. See attached pics... I guess the cautionary tale is that if you have had a fairly significant impact on the generator cover and the battery stops charging, it could very well be internal damage to the generator.

If you do end up having to replace parts, check out the VERY HELPFUL posts within this forum on where to find aftermarket stators as well as how to's on getting the rotor off, etc. GREAT INFORMATION GUYS AND GALS!!!:thanx:
 

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#304 · (Edited)
RESOLVING THE LEAKAGE ON EITHER SERIES REGULATOR HAS BEEN RESOLVED****GO TO POLARIS REGULATOR INSTALL by me


onewizard, Thanks for all the technical advice and the guide for swapping out the R/R.

Got a question for you regarding the Compu-fire 55402 R/R: Can you tap into 1 phase coming off the stator to close the relay for the headlight rather than using the brake lights? Would I need to put a diode in-line with the tap from the phase to the headlight relay?
First I have a question for you, why Compu-fire. It is twice as expensive and far more difficult to install, it will not directly mount like the polaris, the direction of the cooling fins is at 90' to that of original and the connection comes out in the wrong place and you are going to need to install butt splices or some other joining means. To remove it, you will again need to cut the wiring connections , or install a waterproof terminal strip. Yup that's what I have, if I replaced my 07 with a 2015 Versys, I would ask the dealer to ship it without a regulator or credit me the cost, I would then install a Polaris, it would take me less than 90 minutes to both install and modify everything.

So to your question, you have five choices;
#1 Add a relay and switch your ground wire.

#2 Add a relay and use the brown wire to switch the positive wire.

#3 Butt splice everything and isolate the brown wire, every day you come home, hook up a battery tender, your light will come on every time without doing anything, the problem is, when you turn off your bike, the headlight relay is still trying to turn on your headlight, approximately 38 milliamp, 24/7. The reason is the positive terminal on the original regulator is live all the time, the original regulator only comes into play when you exceed 14.2 to 14.5 VDC, it will produce output current with the brown wire disconnected, and when your headlight burns out, that is because the regulator either didn't have power on the brown wire or your key switch wasn't providing it.

I was lucky, I brought my negative wire all the way up to my frame ground, bike sat for two weeks, went to go for a ride, dead battery
Not impressed, discovered what I have posted in post 387, only this year did I get rid of the relays. Somewhere I had a picture of how I adapted the Compu-fire to the original mounting, using the back mounting bolt, then using a longer bolt on the front and a fender washer from below, compared to the Polaris it is one PITA to install, would I do it again, NO, even if the Polaris was the same price--NO.
#4 butt splice all the wires or find a waterproof terminal strip, or marette all the connections, taping the brown wire, then cut the black wire ,pin #2 of the headlight relay, adding a trigger of your choice, I chose the brake light as it is the only thing besides the signal lights that isn't on when starting, the brake light because I always use my brakes, therefore my headlight is assured to be on when riding ( it only comes into play for about 3 milliseconds at 38 milliamp, afdter that the headlight circuit is latched in using your battery positive, only way to turn it off is with the key switch or hitting the start button.

#5 Install a 4012941 Polaris and follow my instructions, direct footprint, superior 1/4 inch male spade terminals , almost 3 times the surface area per terminal to that of original , rated at 35 amp, 10 more than our stator will output, looks identical to the Kawasaki regulator. And almost 1/2 the cost .
Apparently there is a problem with regulation above 12000 RPM according to postings on Triumph Forum. Our bike red lines at 10500 RPM, that is 525 Hertz, I have no idea how many poles are in the Triumph, ours has six poles X 3 phase, so you will count 18 poles when looking at a stator, I stopped testing at 9000 RPM, because I never ride for any distance with a constant 9000 or above sustained RPM. I hit 9500 RPM at least once every second ride, I am over 65 , but still have the little kid in me. :clap:
 
#305 ·
onewizard, Thanks for all the technical advice and the guide for swapping out the R/R.

Got a question for you regarding the Compu-fire 55402 R/R: Can you tap into 1 phase coming off the stator to close the relay for the headlight rather than using the brake lights? Would I need to put a diode in-line with the tap from the phase to the headlight relay?
The headlight relay contains a diode inside, Pin #2 , black wire, is tapped internally with one of the phase output wires, it is buried somewhere in the wiring harness, I wasn't willing to strip the tape off my whole harness to find this tap, so I cut the wire 1.5 inches from the plug at the headlight relay, taped the tap that continues to the regulator, added a 16 gauge wire ( that is what I had, you could use a 22 gauge or even smaller) spliced to this black wire that goes into the relay, connected the other end to the brake light, again rather than stripping the harness, I already had a Add More Light kit installed, knew the brake light wire was easily accessible------end of story.:blah::blah: :exactly:
 
#307 ·
Why is it that people feel compelled to always point out the obvious? You might as well be saying "if Frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their butts when the hop." Or, "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd have Christmas everyday!" Comments like this are totally pointless. :dgi:
Good point. My apologies. :D

It's a slow day at the office... what can I say...
 
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