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  #121  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:01 PM
onewizard onewizard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
I can't find your wrench report w/pics........

Check this thread, a considerable amount of detail throughout this thread, I failed to take pictures but the detail should be equal-----BTW I am planning on pulling the stator this winter to check condition, I may either rewind it myself or buy a RM stator from Quebec

http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...9&postcount=33

Any questions feel free to ask
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  #122  
Old 11-29-2012, 08:16 AM
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A burn stator recently made me to install this upgrade,from now on i can have real time infos on my electrical
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  #123  
Old 12-06-2012, 09:12 PM
Mountain Man Mountain Man is offline
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My Stator has failed for the second time. The factory unit at 44,000, and now today it's aftermarket replacement at 75,500. What has been the conclusion as to upgrading to the Compufire series R/R. My orig R/R has no signs of heat at any of the connections and when I do the impedance test per the manual I get resistance on way and none the other This tells me it's prolly rectifying from AC to DC, but it does not tell me if it's regulating at a predetermined point, and shunting to ground. Although before the new stator went up in smoke my voltmeter was peaking around 14-1/2 DC.

I'm looking for someone to confirm that the Compufire series RR is a good decision.
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  #124  
Old 12-06-2012, 09:32 PM
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Charging voltage is much more stable with Compufire series type R/R. It varied by over 4 times as much and was also a bit excessive with stock shunt R/R at 14.65V~14.90V. It's now always between 14.38V and 14.44V (14.44V idle) with Compufire.
Stator cover which used to be at 205F~219F with stock R/R, is now at 184F~187F with Compufire, while left cylinder head is at 197F~204F in the same ambient temperature... Stator cover temperature is now more stable at about 26F cooler on average, and up to about 32F cooler.

With stock shunt R/R, stator is always operating at maximum possible output by shunting all unused current. Load reduction with series type R/R is significant. The only slight drawback with Compufire is that there is a bit of battery current draw when ignition is off. Not a problem if it's not parked for more than two weeks without external charging. Some have added a pair of relays on the R/R ground wire, and activated by the brown wire (12V with ignition on) which is normally connected to stock R/R.

Last edited by invader; 12-06-2012 at 09:47 PM.
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  #125  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:46 PM
Mountain Man Mountain Man is offline
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Originally Posted by invader View Post
Charging voltage is much more stable with Compufire series type R/R. It varied by over 4 times as much and was also a bit excessive with stock shunt R/R at 14.65V~14.90V. It's now always between 14.38V and 14.44V (14.44V idle) with Compufire.
Stator cover which used to be at 205F~219F with stock R/R, is now at 184F~187F with Compufire, while left cylinder head is at 197F~204F in the same ambient temperature... Stator cover temperature is now more stable at about 26F cooler on average, and up to about 32F cooler.

With stock shunt R/R, stator is always operating at maximum possible output by shunting all unused current. Load reduction with series type R/R is significant. The only slight drawback with Compufire is that there is a bit of battery current draw when ignition is off. Not a problem if it's not parked for more than two weeks without external charging. Some have added a pair of relays on the R/R ground wire, and activated by the brown wire (12V with ignition on) which is normally connected to stock R/R.
Not seeing it in front of me, but trying to visualize it, could the Series R/R ground wire just pass through a single pole on/off switch?

This way no added relays to deal with.

Your thoughts?
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  #126  
Old 12-06-2012, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Not seeing it in front of me, but trying to visualize it, could the Series R/R ground wire just pass through a single pole on/off switch?

This way no added relays to deal with.

Your thoughts?
Yes, a manual R/R ground switch. Simple, effective and reliable. I think I'll do the same. I kept the R/R ground wire's full length. Wires are all soldered on without any connector... Compufire R/R is also much prettier than the stock piece. Oh and it runs cooler as well. Usually at nearly 100F.

I have a battery desulfator coming, for only $26.08 total by the way.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Auto-...609187481.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/prod...577706282.html
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  #127  
Old 12-06-2012, 11:15 PM
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Reduced engine drag also slightly improves fuel efficiency, and unleashes some level of torque and horsepower.
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  #128  
Old 12-07-2012, 05:10 PM
onewizard onewizard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Not seeing it in front of me, but trying to visualize it, could the Series R/R ground wire just pass through a single pole on/off switch?

This way no added relays to deal with.

Your thoughts?
I considered it and decided against it for two reasons, one I need to locate it were it won't get wet but is accessible , two I need to remember to turn it on and more importantly, turn it off, plus it needs to be rated for 30 amp, never use any device @ 100%, unless it is rated 100%. In the electrical industry 80% is a general rule, as a example, your house wiring 14 gauge wire is rated for 15 amps
, however maximum current is 12 amp or 1500 watt ( which is 12.5 amp).
The alternator can put out 24 amp, so a 30 amp switch should be used. I went over kill, if you don't care, you could pick up a cheap 12 volt relay from China and install it near your frame ground, use your tail light for control. I have detail on this in previous posts, when you are done, the 30 amp toggle switch that isn't waterproof may cost you more than the relay. The relay at Princess Auto Change over relay --------------under $10 for 30 or 40 amp-----this is the 40 amp on sale, 30 amp regular price is the same ------complete with socket http://www.princessauto.com/pal/prod...nge-Over-Relay

Last edited by onewizard; 12-07-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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  #129  
Old 12-07-2012, 07:35 PM
Mountain Man Mountain Man is offline
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Yeah, but I'm kinda diggin it's simplicity. I run my bike almost every day, and when it does sit for more than a few days I put it on the Battery tender Plus.

I'm thinking something like this would do..........................

About $17

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  #130  
Old 12-08-2012, 02:48 PM
onewizard onewizard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Yeah, but I'm kinda diggin it's simplicity. I run my bike almost every day, and when it does sit for more than a few days I put it on the Battery tender Plus.

I'm thinking something like this would do..........................

About $17

What is the current rating?

If you want something really cheap and you don't care about spending 2 minutes when you plan on leaving sit for more than 3 days.

Get a small piece of GPO 3 --1/4 inch fiber glass, one 1/4 x 1 inch brass hex bolt, one brass 1/4 hex nut, 3 --1/4 brass washers, one 1/4 inch brass lock washer, one 1/4 inch brass wing nut, two 1/4 ring stakons for 10 gauge wire. Route the ground wire from your regulator to were you plan on mounting the GPO-3 , the ground wire gets the first stakon, mount this on the back side using a washer on each side of the insulation board , then put your second stakon on the remaining wire, this wire goes to frame ground and is also attached to the stud you have created, when not in use, using the wing nut, remove the frame ground and let it hang in the air , if it touches something on the frame it is already grounded. Total cost should be under $4.

If you don't have fiber glass, any solid piece of plastic will work ( non conductive and waterproof), a second method would be to mount the brass bolt and then attach both the frame ground and regulator ground using the same wing nut. Main reason would be if the regulator ground came loose, when tightening the wing nut attaching frame ground---------------------- talk about a long explanation about nothing

Last edited by onewizard; 12-08-2012 at 02:50 PM.
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  #131  
Old 12-08-2012, 03:57 PM
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Just curious if there is a correlation between stator problems and those that use a rear inner fender? My inner fender keeps the voltage regulator clean so there is no build up of dirt on the cooling fins. Never had a stator issue on my 08 and I use lots of power with my heated gear.
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  #132  
Old 12-08-2012, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprocket View Post
Just curious if there is a correlation between stator problems and those that use a rear inner fender? My inner fender keeps the voltage regulator clean so there is no build up of dirt on the cooling fins. Never had a stator issue on my 08 and I use lots of power with my heated gear.
Rear inner fender protects the R/R's connector, but cannot help the stator. Also, your generator/stator is always operating at maximum output/rpm with stock shunt type R/R, no matter how much or how little power is used for accessories, heated gear, etc.

http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~sh...tml#Question_6

Last edited by invader; 12-08-2012 at 10:39 PM.
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  #133  
Old 12-09-2012, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
Rear inner fender protects the R/R's connector, but cannot help the stator. Also, your generator/stator is always operating at maximum output/rpm with stock shunt type R/R, no matter how much or how little power is used for accessories, heated gear, etc.

http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~sh...tml#Question_6
A faulty voltage regulator will kill the stator as I understand it. How many people have replaced their stator but not their voltage regulator?
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  #134  
Old 12-09-2012, 05:39 AM
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Stators fail in multiple ways, but are generally simple to troubleshoot. A stator almost always fails due to heat buildup causing an insulation failure of the wire. Keep in mind that a stator is composed of hundreds of feet of very fine wire, with very thin insulation, wound at relatively high tension around a metal core. The stator lives a high stress life, always surrounded by heat. The stator itself produces heat, as it is a by-product of current generation as the magnetic flywheel spins around it. On most engines (specifically 4-stroke's) the stator lives in a bath of oil from the crankcase. While this oil does provide cooling functions as the stator is immersed in it, the ambient temperature is very high as the oil is heated by engine operation.

The stator generally fails from a hot-spot of the wire's insulation wearing through, resulting in two types of short-circuit failures. If the insulation fails somewhere in the middle of a winding, a short circuit occurs in the coil. The remaining wire in the coil after the short is no longer in the circuit, and the winding's output drops by the percentage of the coil that is bypasses. On a charging coil, this is often not immediately apparent, as the stator may still produce enough current to keep the battery marginally charged for a time, but it will start to be noticeable as the battery is never fully charged. The short will often get worse, or occur at other locations on the winding, continually reducing the output. Taking a resistance reading of the coil and comparing it to the technical resistance specifications of the stator windings will help you troubleshoot this type of failure.

The other common type of short-circuit failure on a stator is a short to the stator core, engine case, or commonly called 'ground'. This type of failure occurs when a wire's insulation melts, or is worn through, and allows the wire strand to touch the stator core. The stator core is grounded to the motorcycle chassis through it's mounting bolts. This type of short generally completely destroys the stator coil's output, resulting in no charging or ignition current output. It will often be noticeable as a dead battery, or no spark produced by the ignition system. Keep in mind that the wires exiting the stator to attach to the bikes wiring harness can also have the insulation nicked, or melted, and cause the same kind of failures outside of the windings on the stator poles.

http://racetechelectric.com/ft-734-tech-support.html
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  #135  
Old 12-09-2012, 12:07 PM
Buckeye Buckeye is offline
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I seriously appreciate the time people spend on these technical issues. I learn so much.

That being said, all this chatter has caused the perfectly good stator on my '09 45,000 mi. V to crap out last week. Coincidence? I dunno, but I'm not going to read any flat tire posts for a while.

Fortunately still under warranty, so they're going to do whatever they do.
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  #136  
Old 12-09-2012, 12:17 PM
onewizard onewizard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post

The stator generally fails from a hot-spot of the wire's insulation wearing through, resulting in two types of short-circuit failures. If the insulation fails somewhere in the middle of a winding, a short circuit occurs in the coil.

Taking a resistance reading of the coil and comparing it to the technical resistance specifications of the stator windings will help you troubleshoot this type of failure.

.

http://racetechelectric.com/ft-734-tech-support.html
I am going to jump in here and say that the average ohmmeter will never find this problem, for two reasons, one the difference of one or two shorted turns may be .05 ohms, most leads are in the range of .8 to 1.2 ohms.A reading that small will be very difficult to interpret no matter if it is a digital meter or analogue meter.

A far more accurate test would be to run the bike at idle, using a alternate battery source, or with a charger on your battery, have the plug disconnected at the regulator and measure the ac voltage , line 1 ( BK-1) to 2 ( BK-2) , then 2 to 3 ( BK-3) and finally 3 to 1., if you have a short or shorted turns , there will be significant differences in the values.
Look in the manual 16-32 , says to disconnect A, getting two test leads in on the contacts is almost impossible, however the plug on the regulator , BK-1 to BK-3 , are easy to access, see 16-34. The manual says 42 volts AC @ 4000 RPM ( see 16-32), I see no need to run at 4000 RPM, other than as a final measurement to prove it will produce 42 or more volts.
At idle, all measurements should be within 2 volts of each other, if you want to crank it to 4000 RPM , you should see between 42 and 54 volts AC.

Brief explanation of why running is more accurate and what happens. A shorted turn, basically reduces the field strength of the magnetic field ( shorts out the magnetic field) , basically the magnetic field is concentrated in the area of the short, this produces excess current, therefore heat and more turns become shorted, eventually resulting in failure of the alternator.

The alternator has several coils in series, approx. six per phase, so when connected in a Y or star 3 phase system it is 12 coils between phases, it gets more complicated as to calculations of voltage ( root 3 comes into this for voltage), however the total 42 volts AC is produced by 12 coils between phases. One shorted coil or pole piece may cause a 3 or 4 volt reduction of voltage output, but because it is permanent magnet, it could cause a reduction of current output by 50%.
If you are now totally confused, feel free to ask, I did this for a living 30 years ago.

Last edited by onewizard; 12-09-2012 at 12:20 PM.
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  #137  
Old 12-09-2012, 04:25 PM
Mountain Man Mountain Man is offline
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Onewizard, You are right on the money. According to the impedance test, the stator passed. No ground or short was detected.



Each field gave this reading.

But when I tested each field for VAC, A and B put out a little under 40 VAC, and C under 2 VAC.

Nice Californian tan on it now........................



What it looked like when installed last Sept..............................



The switch in the post above is rated for 30A, but I have not bought a switch yet. I wonder how much current the indicator on the tip of that particular switch draws?

BTW, I have one of these installed, and in spite of flat battery it never turned red , let alone yellow. Now i feel like a fool for recommending them to others.
I'll be looking for one of those LED digital types like the one posted earlier.


Last edited by Mountain Man; 12-09-2012 at 04:40 PM.
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  #138  
Old 12-09-2012, 09:08 PM
onewizard onewizard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Onewizard, You are right on the money. According to the impedance test, the stator passed. No ground or short was detected.



Each field gave this reading.

But when I tested each field for VAC, A and B put out a little under 40 VAC, and C under 2 VAC.

Nice Californian tan on it now........................



What it looked like when installed last Sept..............................



The switch in the post above is rated for 30A, but I have not bought a switch yet. I wonder how much current the indicator on the tip of that particular switch draws?

:
If it has a 30 amp rating, it is probably rated 12 volts DC, 30 amp toggle switches @ 250 VAC are hard to find, however if it is rated for 30 amp, you should be OK, 80% is 24 amp, unless you have auxiliary lights or heated gear you are never going to see that high a output for more than a couple minutes.
goodluck:

BTW, I have one of these installed, and in spite of flat battery it never turned red , let alone yellow. Now i feel like a fool for recommending them to others.
I'll be looking for one of those LED digital types like the one posted earlier.



I don't recognize the unit, it may be a copy, I have a Heads Up , it works flawlessly, it is simple and waterproof, I use the term "green is good", day or night a quick glance, actually in a really dark country road it is almost too bright. Also , every time I start the bike it goes red, yellow after about 10 seconds of running then solid green after a minute. When the bike is hot, after a long ride and idling, when the fan comes on it goes yellow then solid red if I pull on high beam ( I am running Osram H7 65 watt)


As to your stator, that is a sign of regulator failure, I would say you never ever had a shorted turn or ground, 1 phase of the regulator failed, and you cooked the stator .

Last edited by onewizard; 12-09-2012 at 09:16 PM.
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  #139  
Old 12-09-2012, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye View Post
I seriously appreciate the time people spend on these technical issues. I learn so much.

That being said, all this chatter has caused the perfectly good stator on my '09 45,000 mi. V to crap out last week. Coincidence? I dunno, but I'm not going to read any flat tire posts for a while.

Fortunately still under warranty, so they're going to do whatever they do.


Seriously, I learn a lot about this bike on this site too.

I'm curious...would you (or others) explain how this malady occurred? I mean, did you just go to start your bike one day and nothing, took it to the shop and they diagnosed it? Did it crap out while riding? Were there any "signs" and "signals" before the failure? I ask because my V is closing in on 38,000 miles...I am covered for the next 2 1/2 years under warranty, so I am not particularly worried, but I just want to have "my head up" (if possible).


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  #140  
Old 12-10-2012, 12:06 AM
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"Fundamental Problems for Permanent Magnet Alternators-

There are fundamental physical difficulties in constructing a generator with permanent magnets, that has to operate over a large rpm range. Hence all manufactures using this principle fight with the following issues:

•Very large currents cause very high temperatures inside the windings of the stator.

•Very high voltages at high rpm cause breakdown and shorts in the insulation materials.

•Temperature cycles inside the stator cause mechanical expansion and compression. On top of this comes vibrations, so over time the insulation materials will crack and deteriorate.

•The subsequent voltage regulator must be able to convert a very large input voltage range to the output 13.5 Volts.

On top of these problems, Honda and many other manufactures unfortunately use a very unelegant rectifier/regulator design called a shunt regulator which causes much higher currents in the stator windings than a more ideal design would. The shunt type deliberately shorts some of the stator windings when the output voltage exceeds the desired level, thereby allowing huge currents to flow in the windings. These currents create a rotating magnetic field which counteracts the rotating magnetic field from the permanent magnet, and thus effectively reduces the induced voltage. These shorting currents do not dissipate much power outside the alternator as the shorting voltage is low (it is a thyristor or a FET which creates the short), but they cause extra heat dissipation and hence extra temperature rise inside the stator windings.

The Shunt Regulator-

The shunt regulator is called 'shunt' because it literally puts a shunt across two stator outputs each time the voltage exceeds a certain limit. The first time I heard about this principle, I refused to believe that anything so stupid had been designed, but I was proven wrong. The shunt regulator can be constructed with lower production cost and has hence been chosen as standard, even if it means much higher current loading on the stator windings.
The shunt regulator uses high shorting currents in the stator windings to create an extra rotating magnetic field counteracting the rotating field from the permanent magnet. The resulting magnetic field is hence reduced and so are the induced voltages. The high shorting currents cause extra heat dissipation in the stator windings and are probably the reason for having high failure rates on this component.

The Serial Regulator-

A rectifier/regulator design of a different type called a series regulator uses disconnection rather than shorting to obtain regulation. It therefore has inherently lower current load on the stator windings with potentially lower stator failure rates.

Symptom: Battery runs flat and bike wont start-

This happened for me with my one-year old Honda CBF1000A. As it was still under warranty, I simply took it to the Honda dealer where the stator was replaced.
According to what I have read on the forums, Honda is often (but not always) replacing stators free of charge (you see the ambiguity of this expression in this context ? ;-) even if the bike is no longer under warranty.

It could also have been the battery which was not working properly, but a charging test will pretty easily reveal if this is the case.

It might also be due to a failing rectifier/regulator, but it is not my impression that this is often the reason. To get a better feeling of this, I would like to hear from you if you have positively experienced a blown rectifier/regulator unit on any of these bikes.

Failure: Stator Shorted to Ground-

A stator with a winding shorted to ground on a CBR600 will not charge the battery, even if putting out 65 VAC from each phase at 6000 rpm. The regulator is simply not able to operate correctly with a non-floating stator.

Failure: Blown Diode or FET in Rectifier/Regulator-

In case one of the diodes (or one of the FETs if such are used instead of diodes) in the rectifier/regulator has been blown, only two of the three windings will have to deliver all the required power, with consequent overheating of the windings and a fried stator as result.
By constructing a break-out connector with 3 small resistors e.g. 0.1 Ohm each in series with the stator outputs, it is possible with a simple AC voltmeter to verify proper symmetrical current load on all three windings."

http://www.fireblader.dk/i_files/cbr1000rr/mc032.htm

Last edited by invader; 12-10-2012 at 08:11 AM.
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