this is not directly related to the question in the other thread, so i figured i'd split it off....

("Snell" approved of course, cuz anything less is just a hunk of plastic on yer head...)
urban legend, myth, whatever you want to call it... not true. quite the contrary, it seems. (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/index.html) that links a very lengthy article, it was in the print rag a few years ago. it's probably worth the read.

I was wondering how long it would take...

Carry on...

I was wondering how long it would take...

Carry on...

I need your popcorn smiley


http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g304/Bear_on_a_bicycle/smilies/smiley2eatingpopcorn.gif

I was wondering how long it would take...

Carry on...

LOL!! i was disappointed that i had to do it. i let it go all day!

I read that article when it came out. For now, I only buy DOT only rated helmets. Saves a couple of bucks too as it seems these are the least expensive lids.

There is a big difference between Snell M2005 and Snell M2010 standards. Most of the issues raised wrt Snell standards were fixed with M2010.

I read that article a few years ago and told all my rider friends about it... No one listen... Everyone seem to think that the more you paid, the more protection you will get...

I now wear Sparx helmet, got it for a really good price on ebay. I used to wear Scorpian helmets, good helmet. I switched to Sparx mainly because Sparx is a much more lighter weight helmet.

I think the most important thing is to get a at least dot approved helmet, but make sure it fit your head correctly!!!

A lot of helmet manufacturers are releasing ECE approved helmets but not bothering with Snell. Check out helmets on the Revzilla site, they have them sorted by standard.

Helmets must be atleast DOT cert and not too expensive. should fit to protect in case of any event that might hurt.

Dont go for names or brands, sometimes its not only heavy on your pockets but your head too. Learned my lesson....:mad:

:cheers:

Thanks for posting this and commenting on it. It's been very educational. I did a little bit of research as a result.

Basically, the Snell M2010 standard is a combination of the best of M2005 and ECE 22-05, making Snell M2010 incompatible (at points) with Snell M2005. It sounds like they listened after the Motorcyclist article. Now a Snell M2010 helmet automatically meets ECE 22-05 standards. So a company can now build a helmet that meets Snell M2010, US DOT and ECE 22-05.

Here's one article (http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/snell-2010-standard.htm) about the updates Snell made for M2010.

Motorcyclist commented on the update here (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/answers/122_0909_ask_the_pro/index.html).

i currently use a AFX full face....dot approved, very well made and is the lightest helmet i've ever used....i was using a HJC AC_10 and this thing is sooo much nicer..cost was $80

Dont go for names or brands, sometimes its not only heavy on your pockets but your head too. Learned my lesson....:mad:

:cheers:

I disagree to an extent. While buying on brand alone can end up being a waste, picking up something from a well-reputed manufacturer might avoid some regret. My first helmet was a Bell Sprint; got it along with my first bike because I didn't want to break the bank on gear. Hated it. Really loud, poor airflow, and the padding collapsed within a couple of months. Replaced it with a Shoei TZ-R and while I still wish it were quieter, the fit is still superb after a year and a half.

--
Jon
'09 Versys in blue
'06 XV250 in black (for sale)

Are you familiar with the SHARP rating??
copy paste some lines
Motorcyclists are the most vulnerable group of road users - making up just 1% of traffic in the UK but accounting for 19% of all deaths.
Of 599 motorcyclist fatalities in 2006 research shows that approximately 80% of motorcyclists killed and 70% of those with serious injuries sustain head injuries. Scientific analysis has shown that if all riders wore the safest helmets available up to 50 lives could be saved each year.
check it out
http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/news/

The SHARP thing seems out of date. Is it still active?

SHARP is still active, however there have been suggestions that its methodology is suspect... it focuses on damage protection on a specific area. IIRC it focuses on damage to the side of the helmet not head on, based on an analysis of damage to helmets post crash.

also as its UK based its only going to test helmets that are sold in the UK (IIRC it relies on buying helmets from dealers rather than getting samples from manufacturers so they can guarantee the items tested are legit retail products), and therefore will only test helmets that are compliant with the relevant ECE/BSI specification which may or may not exclude DoT/Snell.

irrespective of what standard a helmet is designed to or its price or construction, in effect what you are paying for is the Polystyrene insert that actually absorbs the imapct energy. Kevlar may have better wear resistance to thermoplastic but in principle they both do an adequate job in normal road use.

Check out helmets on the Revzilla site, they have them sorted by standard.
ah, that's handy. here's the link (http://www.revzilla.com/sportbike-helmets). here's another (http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/motorcycle-helmet-shapes.htm), where they are sorted by shape.

beteen the two of them, i should be able to get the standard i want and hopefully ensure a proper fit for my next lid. maybe i'll actually try something different....

I don't understand. According to that report the best helmet for almost all riding was the DOT helmet. ECE was close but DOT was easily the best. I bought a Z1R helmet for 90 dollars, while not as plush as a $400 Arai or Shoei it wasn't bad. The counter guy told me I should spend more money to get a safer helmet. I pulled out the report (I had it on me to make sure I bought the proper lid). I showed him the charts. Still, with the facts before him, by a bonafide testing laboratory, he still insisted I was wrong. Go figure. Sorry, that $90 full face is safer than your $500 Shuberth.

DOT is the minimum standard for a motorcycle helmet in the US. If it is not DOT approved in the US it cannot be sold as a motorcycle helmet. Follow this link to a site with the text of the law for the standard: http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/DOT-standard.htm

ECE is an international standard. Not better or worse than DOT, just different. If I could find a helmet that meets both I would be willing to pay extra money for it. However, in my experience pirce is more related to cosmetic and comfort properties than safety.

DOT is the minimum standard for a motorcycle helmet in the US. If it is not DOT approved in the US it cannot be sold as a motorcycle helmet. Follow this link to a site with the text of the law for the standard: http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/DOT-standard.htm

ECE is an international standard. Not better or worse than DOT, just different. If I could find a helmet that meets both I would be willing to pay extra money for it. However, in my experience pirce is more related to cosmetic and comfort properties than safety.
agreed. SNELL is a nice asset, but I think DOT and ECE can both be relied upon. The extra money in those pricier helmets are going towards creature comforts and name brand.

... If I could find a helmet that meets both I would be willing to pay extra money for it. However, in my experience pirce is more related to cosmetic and comfort properties than safety.

If you buy a Snell 2010 helmet in the US, it'll meet Snell, DOT and ECE.

unless it states the helmet meets a specific standard it doesn't.... the SNELL 2010 may incorporate the requirements of DOT and ECE 22-05, but without the label you cannot guarantee or rely on it. the DOT label is required to sell (but not use) a helmet in the US, ECE 22-05 is required to sell in the EU. there is nothing stopping you from using a DOT / SNELL approved helmet in the EU (unless perhaps in Germany who are seriously anal about approvals and accreditations), and vice versa. ECE 22-05 is based on or is part of the emerging ISO standard. that may reflect a more internationalist approach of much of the EU standard (such as ISO900x [which started life as BS5750 or ISO 1400x]).

howver lets be realistic its unlikely that international makers are going to make a lid which only meets one standard.. ferinstance Shoei sell the Mulitec in the US and the EU and elsewhere. in the US its DOT approved, in the EU its ECE labelled. is the lid any or significantly different in those two markets.

bear in mind that most CE marked devices are not necessarily tested by a third party (independent or not). CE marking is an assertion by the manufacturer or first importer into the EU that the equipment meets standard. that assertion should be backed by the documentation and proof it does but there is nothing stopping someone importing a piece of equipment, assert it meets the requirement without actually doing anything to prove it meets the requirement. if the device fails then the manufacturer or importer has to be able to demonstrate they took the steps to meet the standard. so don't rely on CE marking unless it comes from a reputable source. there is no such thing as CE approved. it would be s atoopid manufacturer or importer who didn't take suitable steps to assure meeting the standard but there is no third party defintively saying that any and all devices meet the relevant standard.

in years gone by the 'gold' standard in the UK was the ACU label, essentially a manufacturer took their lid to the ACU (Auto Cycle Union) whose approval was required before that lid could be taken racing. there were suspicons that the ACU got into financial problems years ago becoming so reliant on the sale of labels that the approval scheme fell into doubt. ie the ACU were no longer arbiters of wrong or right and instead became supplicants

a sobering thought is that standards are essentially the lowest common denominator.... the manufacturer asserts the product meets or exceeds the standard. rarely are standards aspirational ie significantly challenging such that suppliers may not achieve the standard.

It is really quite long but is informative though. Well all I could say is that helmet does help lessen the damage.

One thing comfort, style, and brand awareness do here in the US where helmets are not necesarily mandated. It increases the likelyhood that people will use them and that is a good thing.

I'm old enough to remember when bicycle helmets where something only dorks use. Then came Lance Armstrong with his dorky looking helmet and clothing. Now everyone in the US aspires to look like him and wears a lot of spandex, a helmet,

and a yellow jersey with sponsors logos written in French. :)

I want to stir up the debate a bit ... :devil:

I currently own and Givi X.01 (http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/motorcycle-helmet/givi/x-01/)
I like the helmet a lot on a cosmetic, lightness, coolness (as in air going true) point of view

It's ECE certified

Now, I would like to change for something that will hold it's ground a bit better at higher speed

I've being shopping around, and had stopped my search at a specific helmet brand/model

Went to my dealer and he told me not to bother with the brand I had choosen, even tough it was snell M2010, ECE and DOT certified
So him and I argue a bit and finaly I postponed my purchase

I've bein following this post closely, and some comments are not helping (I don't mean to offend anybody so keep reading to understant what I mean)

Saying that a helmet has good finish, nice paint scheme is not cutting it for me anymore
I don't buy a helmet for the looks of it of the quality of the paint/finish but for my safety

Now, for the hard part
How can a Shoei or Arai worth $500+ can have the same certification (Snell for instance since I always tough that they were a very independent organisation) has, let say, any $100 model

Are we getting fooled by the "big gun" who are asking a big big big prenium for their product or is the "smaller gun" "giving back" ;) some of their profit to certification organisation so that they can have the "seal of approuval"

When I wear my Givi, I cannot attest of it's quality as far as protection goes
When I go to purchase a new helmet at the store, I cannot attest of it's quality as far as protection
For those two affirmation, the only "tool" I have are certification from supposedly renown organisation


And for those who will argue that a certain certification is some sort of a proof, I cannot understand that a beanie helmet as a DOT certification (any certification for that mather)

So, what are your though on this ???

Thank's



Ciao

LOP

A Lexus is nothing more than a nicely dressed up Toyota and yet people pay three times the price for one. Production cost or quality does not determine price. Price is set based on the willingness of the target consumer to pay. Some high end product prices are set as an anchor or point of reference for the real sale price of a mass produced item of the same manufacturer. For example a Gucci does not expect to sell many of their $10,000 hand made hand bags. However, they are prominently displayed at their boutiques stores. The purpose of it is to make the $1,000 mass produced hand bag look like a bargain in comparison.

Product testing and certification costs money. However, it does make a large percentage of the overal cost of the product. Price is set by how much the target consumer is willing to pay for a product.

"Now, for the hard part
How can a Shoei or Arai worth $500+ can have the same certification (Snell for instance since I always tough that they were a very independent organisation) has, let say, any $100 model"

Lours, I think you are mistaken. Those helmets don't have the same certification and they are not as safe as the cheaper helmet tested. the DOT ONLY has the best protection. Look at the bright side, your next purchase should save you some money.:)

"Now, for the hard part
How can a Shoei or Arai worth $500+ can have the same certification (Snell for instance since I always tough that they were a very independent organisation) has, let say, any $100 model"

Lours, I think you are mistaken. Those helmets don't have the same certification and they are not as safe as the cheaper helmet tested. the DOT ONLY has the best protection. Look at the bright side, your next purchase should save you some money.:)

Blipco
Maybe I wasn't clear
What I meant was that I can have a dot/ece/snell m2010 helmet for around $200
For instance, Zox (http://www.zoxhelmets.com/86-63131_fr.html)
or this one (http://www.zoxhelmets.com/86-63031_fr.html) for around $100 (this one is snell m2005)

But still, quite a difference in price tag, for similar certification from an Arai or Shoei and those zox

???

And, can you expand on the DOT ONLY being the better choice as far as protection goes ?

Thank's

another factor about helmets is the date of production...arai says that after 7 years of the dop its practically useless cause its absorbing materials has evolved to ...wood.So when you find a good brand helmet in very low price be aware of its dop.you can find it inside the helmet usually,arai is in the chinstrap like Ho7 (h stands 8th in alphabet so its 2008 and 7 is the month ).or you can find actuall dates like 05/06 month/year.

some copy paste :
ARAI:
All Arai helmets are warranted against defects in materials and workmanship, and are serviceable only for the properly fitted* first user for 5 years from date of first use, but no more than 7 years from date of manufacture. It should be replaced within 5 years of first use.
Now, about that question on how much helmet use is too much, and what if you rarely wear it, etc., etc.

The simple truth is, even a helmet as good as an Arai won’t last forever.

Why? Think of a helmet in terms of your body. No matter how good it may look, or how well you take care of it, age takes its toll. Even with minimal use, a helmet is affected by things like acids and oils in sweat, hair care products, pollution, exposure to UV rays, etc. At about the five-year mark, helmet interiors begin to show normal wear, which should serve as an alert to its overall condition. The helmet’s fit may begin to feel a little “loose,” not as snug as it once did. This unseen, but normal, aging of the EPS liner and fiberglass shell can affect the helmet’s ability to perform in an impact as it was originally designed to do.

Also, if a helmet suffers an impact and any doubt exists as to its integrity, it should either be returned to the manufacturer for competent inspection or discarded and replaced.

A helmet that was used only a few times and then stored for a long period of time (even if properly stored under good conditions) may experience as much, if not more, interior material deterioration due to the fact that the acids and oils in the sweat that was left behind continue to interact and attack the comfort lining materials, robbing them of moisture and leaving them less resilient and more prone to premature breakdown.

These are the reasons to replace your helmets after five years. Of course, if your helmet becomes less than snug in fit, or it becomes damaged, it should be replaced before the five-year mark.

SHOEI:
Where can I find the Production Date of my SHOEI helmet?
The Production Date is located on a sticker under the center pad of your helmet. For example: 030919 means September 19th of 2003.

What does the warranty on my SHOEI helmet cover?
Your Shoei helmet is covered under warranty for five years from purchase date or seven years from the date of manufacture, whichever comes first. The warranty covers all manufacturing defects. Please note that damage caused by the consumer, (i.e. dropping the helmet), etc., is not covered under warranty.

DOT: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/571.218.htm
SNELL: http://www.smf.org/

Blipco
Maybe I wasn't clear
What I meant was that I can have a dot/ece/snell m2010 helmet for around $200
For instance, Zox (http://www.zoxhelmets.com/86-63131_fr.html)
or this one (http://www.zoxhelmets.com/86-63031_fr.html) for around $100 (this one is snell m2005)

But still, quite a difference in price tag, for similar certification from an Arai or Shoei and those zox

???

And, can you expand on the DOT ONLY being the better choice as far as protection goes ?

Thank's

The report states that Snell 2005 and earlier did not account for different head weights and therefore certain size helmets were to hard. (The numbers for the drop tests are there and "DOT only" helmets prove to be the safest). Apparently this study moved the Snell people to update their ratings with the Snell 2010, which takes into account heads of different sizes vary in weight and need different levels of protection. I am a rider not a researcher. I get my info from reading as many reports on one subject as I can and go from there, and there is a lot written on the subject from reliable testing agencies. Snell 2010 is better. I would not buy a Snell 2005. But that's me. Hope this helps.

The report states that Snell 2005 and earlier did not account for different head weights and therefore certain size helmets were to hard. (The numbers for the drop tests are there and "DOT only" helmets prove to be the safest). Apparently this study moved the Snell people to update their ratings with the Snell 2010, which takes into account heads of different sizes vary in weight and need different levels of protection. I am a rider not a researcher. I get my info from reading as many reports on one subject as I can and go from there, and there is a lot written on the subject from reliable testing agencies. Snell 2010 is better. I would not buy a Snell 2005. But that's me. Hope this helps.

I tend to think like you about the snell 2005 VS 2010

What puzzles me a bit is the price difference between two helmet that have the same certification (like Arai VS Zox)

Any reason to pay a steep prenium for the Arai ???


LOP

The less expensive helmets have a tough polycarbonate shell which stays intact but distributes the shock through the layers of foam. They are very tough. If you have ever taken a sledge hammer to an old helmet you can pound away and it appears to have no damage. Manufacturers thought to improve upon this with exotic fiber mix shells which sacrifice themselves as part of the protection. This method costs more but apparently is less effective. The finish on the more expensive lids is nicer, I hate trying them on as it makes me want to buy one.

What puzzles me a bit is the price difference between two helmet that have the same certification (like Arai VS Zox)

Any reason to pay a steep premium for the Arai ???
LOP

Yes, comfort and fit (IF they fit you better....), name recognition.

I have a pretty nice SHOIE that I haven't worn for a long time, because my KBC is more comfortable. :yeahsmile:

Well some of the people don't like to wear a helmet when they are driving or riding. When they don't know more about the benefit of it. They are just wearing it only to save themselves from any traffic police or etc. They actually don't know how useful it is to wear.