OK, there really isn't any black magic involved. No, really.

The suspensions main task, from a performance perspective is to keep the wheels in contact with the ground as much as possible and minimize the bike's movement, or at least keeping those movements under control. There are several adjustments when you are dealing with high quality suspensions (unfortunately, neither end on the Versys qualifies as such) and they all work together. Adjusting only one element is going to have limited effect.

First you have to understand what each component and adjustment does for your suspension:

Despite the common (mis)use in motorcycle language, preload does not affect spring stiffness, but you will see thousands of references to "making the suspension stiffer/softer" by changing preload. In reality, preload affects mainly at which point in the suspension travel you are in equilibrium (static or race sag, depending on whether you measure with/without the rider) and therefore, ride height. Setting the correct preload puts the suspension in it's optimal working range (too much preload and it tops out easily because you start very high on the suspension stroke; not enough preload and you are down towards the lower half of the suspension travel, making it easier to bottom out) but also puts more/less load on the front and rear, which means you have more/less weight acting on that particular spring. Unfortunately, colloquially, people refer to adding/removing preload as stiffening or softening the suspension, so many riders actually think that is a direct effect of adding or removing preload, instead of thinking of it as a suspension travel adjustment (and indirectly ride height).

Damping is what controls the spring movement. If there was no damping the bike would keep bouncing up and down uncontrollably (think old American cars...). Compression damping is what slows down the suspension movement as it compresses (yeah, I know, duh!) to absorb a bump. It can also be broken into low and high speed damping (referring to fork/shock movement, not actual vehicle speed). Low speed damping affects what happens most of the time when you ride on relatively good roads, the fork moves up and down at a low rate to deal with road changes. When you hit a sharp bump, the forks compress rapidly and that's when high speed damping comes into play. Sophisticated suspensions have a secondary circuit that opens when the pressure rises rapidly, making the fork/shock more compliant. Most OEM setups are not that sophisticated, so you have more oil trying to rush through the same orifices, resulting in a hydraulic lock of sort, creating harsh feeling suspension.

Rebound damping controls the shock/fork movement as it expands. Low rebound will allow the suspension to extend rapidly and create a lot of movement as the bike bounces back. Too much rebound will keep the fork/shock from fully extending fast enough to deal with the next road irregularity with the full suspension stroke. So, if you set rebound damping low, the bike will move around more, but it's not "softer" because rebound doesn't really affect what happens when you first hit a sharp bump, that's handles by the spring and compression damping.

It's important to note that when doing any suspension work, it's best to do one thing at a time, make one change and go out to test it. Use the same loop under the same conditions when testing. Take notes of the changes you make. This will make it easier to compare changes and also allow you to easily dial it back to the starting point if you don't like the result.

OK, great, but what do I do with all this information?

Using this information you can understand what happens when you set the sag and damping rates on your bike.

Measuring sag is simple, you'll need an assistant (two is better), a measuring tape (I always recommend a metric one, it's easier figure out the differences with decimal units) a note pad and a simple calculator (if you are not good doing math in your head).

Lets define some measurements:
L1 = Total suspension travel
L2 = Available travel
L3 = Rider Sag (L1-L2)


Total suspension travel is usually given in the bike's specs (for the Versys - 150mm), but the actual available distance from the bottom of the forks is a little longer than that - you can measure it by leaning the bike on the side stand and pulling until there is no load on the front wheel. Obviously, this requires at least two people for safety reasons (both yours and the bike's). If are measuring on your own, use the manufacturers specs plus 20mm. Note that there will be a small discrepancy between the measured full extension and the spec as there always is some slack in the fork when it's fully extended. If you are getting what seems like little sag, check the fully extended length of the lower fork.

If you have two assistants:
- Sit on the bike with your typical riding gear.
- Have one of the assistants hold the bike up so you can put both your feet on the pegs and sit in your normal riding position.

If, like me, you have no friends, you can use a zip-tie loosely fastened around the fork lower to measure displacement. In that case, push the zip-tie all the way against the fork seal, carefully straighten the bike and sit on it taking care to not move the suspension up or down.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2014/2460964788_6f4d44b2dd_o.jpg


Try to balance for a second or two, again, taking care to not bounce the suspension up and down as you do so. I recommend you try this several times, as it takes a little practice to balance for more than an instant without needlessly moving the suspension. When you get off the bike, again, take care not to bounce the suspension around. You should see something like this:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2266/2460130079_61e7974922_o.jpg


- Measure how much the front suspension is compressed (easy to do directly on forks, you simply measure from the length of exposed inner tube from the dust seal to the top of the axle holder or from the zip-tie to the top of the axle holder). The difference between available travel (exposed length, L2) and the total travel (L1) is your sag.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2310/2460130171_23db84b8cb_o.jpg


- Measuring rear sag is similar, but can't be done directly due to the setup, so what we measure is the distance the rear axle travels and use that. In order to have meaningful measurements you need to get a baseline measurement that tell you the distance between some point on the rear axle (I often use the center or top of the axle nut) and some fixed point on the rear subframe, that is located vertically above that spot on the axle (when you are looking at the bike it's a lot simpler than it sounds lostit). The bolting point for the passenger pegs to the subframe is close enough to vertical that you can use that, or any other spot on the rear subframe would work too, as long as you consistently use that same spot when you measure.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3101/2460130259_3fc4799041_o.jpg


- An easy way to measure the fully extended length in the rear is pull the bike toward you when you are standing on the left side of the bike (with bike on side stand), until the rear wheel starts coming off the ground. Measure the distance between your selected two spots. This is your L1*.
- Now sit on the bike again, have one of your assistants hold the bike up, put your feet on the pegs as you would while riding and have the second assistant measure the distance between those two spots again. This is L2*. The difference between L1* and L2* is your sag (Sag = L1*-L2*).

The range for sag on a Versys should be -

Front - 25%-33% compression (or 37.5-49.5mm out of a total of 150mm travel available)
Rear - 25%-35% compression (or 36-51mm out of a total of 145mm travel available)

If your measurements fall within this range and you are satisfied with how the bike feels, you are done (at least as far as preload is concerned). If your measurements are outside these ranges, you need to adjust preload and measure again. If you don't have enough compression, remove preload (forks - clockwise adds preload, counterclockwise removes it, rear shock - 1 is min preload, 7 max preload), if you have too much compression add more preload.


As I mentioned above, the initial sag setup are good starting points, but you can set it anywhere in that range and still have good suspension performance. Some people like their bikes to ride taller, others lower with more or less damping. I start at the middle of the range (useful to write down what settings you started with, so you can go back later if you don't like the changes you make over time) and usually go towards the upper end, i.e. less sag because I like to keep clearance at maximum.

Hope this helps, feel free to ask for clarifications if I lost you somewhere in the process...

Gustavo

This is a good reminder that I need to adjust mine. Thanks for the post. :thumb: :thumb:

Yo, DMC51! Yeah, it was a great post--great enough for you to quote in its entirety I'm not so sure, but great nonetheless! :thumbdown:

:D

Gustavo, Thanks for a great post. I've read half a dozen articles on suspension setting and never understood a bit of it.:huh: I think I finally understand enough to do some checking of mine. Now if I just had some friends to help ...:D

Thanks again for your great post with the pictures, it seems
that I may have posted a comment about your post in the wrong
place or something. I certainly did,nt mean to. I quess I can mess
up anything sometimes. Just to let everyone know, I don,t know
anything about the V,s suspension and my hat is off to Gustavo.
A very knowledgeable person.
Trying to learn about this posting stuff and thanks for keeping me
straight.
My apologies
dmc51

Thanks AlexDz
Thanks for pointing out my screw up. I was trying to complement Gustavo for
his great post. I did not mean to or try to duplicate it, my apologies. Once
I seen what I had done I got it off as fast as possible.
Thanks
dmc51

DMC, thanks for the comments, I am glad it helped. While Alex has a point about trimming the replies, you can always just edit your post after you notice the issue, no need to delete the whole post either.

:cheers:

Gustavo

Geez, what a great post. Crystal clear and everybody, even the friendless, can do it. Thanks!

Ok I’m dense...I looked at the service manual 13-9 and 13-20 about suspension. The default suspension settings on the bike are for a rider at 150 lbs.

So with those default settings how would you adjust to a rider at lets say 250 lbs....and a rider who is 250 and a passenger who is let’s say 200?

Ok I’m dense...I looked at the service manual 13-9 and 13-20 about suspension. The default suspension settings on the bike are for a rider at 150 lbs.

Forget the factory settings, they are bogus (for the stated weight). I weigh about 150 lbs. and I get very little sag in the front at the factory settings. It's a bit better in the rear, but not by much. The guy who spec'ed the springs didn't talk to the guy who wrote the manual...

The best advise I can give you is to measure it. Sit on the bike and figure out how much sag you get front and rear - you can start at the factory settings if you wish. Add or remove preload to get you into the right range if it's not right and measure again. With a passenger (and a combined weight of 450, if I read it correctly) you are probably looking at max preload in the rear, maybe in the front too.

Hope this helps,

Gustavo

Thanks Gustavo for the Thread. I found it very helpful. I'm 210 lbs and I have the rear pre-laod set on 6 and the front I have screwed in 9 turns. This sets me @ 26% on both front and rear. I went for a ride and am now just playing with the dampening. Any suggestions, I adjusted both min and max and haven't found the sweet spot yet.

Jeff - damping is a lot harder to fine tune than sag, because it can't really be done on a static bike. You have to ride long enough in one setting to see how the bike behaves under different conditions you ride through regularly. You wont be able to set it up to handle everything brilliantly, the Versys doesn't have a wide or fine enough range of adjustment. I think you are doing the right thing - set it up at one extreme or the other and see what happens. Then make some changes and go out again.

Gustavo

Thanks again, this was a great help and I'll pack a flat head screwdriver with me! Yes, there isn't much adjustment. 4 turns on the front and 15 on the back. Usually are the dampening adjustments the same for the front as the rear? Like both set at 30% or both set at 75%? Or are they going to be different? Like you said I suppose it will depend on the personal driving conditions and habits! Thanks again.

Jeff - you don't have to setup both ends the same. It rarely actually works out to be a similar setting that works, since those are two very different components. Do one at a time so you can tell what the changes you've made feel like, otherwise you may end up mixing feedback from changes and wasting time trying to "fix" symptoms you think come from a change at one end, when in fact they root cause is at the other.

Gustavo

Thanks Gustavo for the Thread. I found it very helpful. I'm 210 lbs and I have the rear pre-laod set on 6 and the front I have screwed in 9 turns. This sets me @ 26% on both front and rear. I went for a ride and am now just playing with the dampening. Any suggestions, I adjusted both min and max and haven't found the sweet spot yet.

Is that "in 9 turns" from the factory setting or 9 turns from all the way out?

Thanks to the information,,,

dbocz:feedback:

Is that "in 9 turns" from the factory setting or 9 turns from all the way out?


It is 9 turns from min pre-load (all the way out). The factory setting is 7 turns out (from max pre-load, or fully in) or measuring the way Jeff did, 8 turns in. But it's really meaningless, it's much better to measure the sag and set that as your starting point.

Gustavo

I'm 210 lbs and set my rear preload to max and damping to max.

For city street riding and quick acceleration I think it feels better than the default middle position.

If the default preload is for 150 pounds and its' position is 5 then I figure 30 pounds per click up to a max of 210 pounds, so I'm set at 7 and max.

I did your test (alone too) and the default setting seems to sink in about an inch but I haven't adjusted it yet.


Does my reasoning for the rear adjustment make sense to you?

Tim - Your reasoning would make sense, if the settings Kawasaki calls "standard" were correct for the advertised weight. But, having measured it, I know they are not. A 150 lbs. rider gets the correct rear sag in the second or third setting, not the fifth. Not sure I remember measuring someone who is 210, so the best way to set the baseline is taking the measurement of you (with your gear) on the bike.

Gustavo

Excellent write up, but I can't seem to get my front shocks within the proper parameters. Maybe l am measuring from the wrong points, but using your photo it appears that the measurement to the top of the zip tie is roughly 135mm. Taking 150mm minus 135mm and I am left with 15mm - what am l doing wrong?
Thanks
:confused:

Excellent write up, but I can't seem to get my front shocks within the proper parameters. Maybe l am measuring from the wrong points, but using your photo it appears that the measurement to the top of the zip tie is roughly 135mm. Taking 150mm minus 135mm and I am left with 15mm - what am l doing wrong?


Lcon, I think the key is in this paragraph:

Total suspension travel is usually given in the bike's specs (for the Versys - 150mm), but the actual available distance from the bottom of the forks is a little longer than that - you can measure it by leaning the bike on the side stand and pulling until there is no load on the front wheel. Obviously, this requires at least two people for safety reasons (both yours and the bike's). If are measuring on your own, use the manufacturers specs plus 20mm. Note that there will be a small discrepancy between the measured full extension and the spec as there always is some slack in the fork when it's fully extended. If you are getting what seems like little sag, check the fully extended length of the lower fork.

I just reworded it, because it seems I confused a few people with the original version. If you can't measure it, use a total length of 170 (based on measurements I did on several Versys, 170 seems to be fairly close to representative. It's better if you verify by measuring, though), not 150. So when you say you measured 135 exposed inner fork leg, it means you could have as much as 35mm of sag, not 15 as it seems by using the total travel as the overall available length.

Hope this helps,

Gustavo

l now have the sag dialed in correctly and l must say - Wow! What a difference, the bike truly handles a lot better. The factory presets are a joke. I weigh 190 pounds and l have the rear preload set at 4 resulting in a sag of 39 mm and the fronts @ 5.5 turns with a 41 mm sag.

Both measurements are on the high side, but my measurements were done with a 1/4 tank of gas. With a full tank, the suspension should compress a little more.
:cheers:

Glad to hear it was helpful and resulted in a better ride/handling. I think people who have not had a chance to read and understand what it is that they are adjusting put too much "faith" in the factory settings, not understanding that it's sort of one size fit all recommendation that is hard to make work for suspension settings, that really depend on the rider's weight.



Gustavo

Hey, I know this is an old thread but I hope someone is still monitoring it. I just did the adjustments. I'm 230lbs and got a rear setting of 4, 5 if I have any extra weight. My front is messed up, no matter how I set it it's at 25MM so I put it close to the middle, 8. Any suggestions????

Is the starting point from on the kickstand or upright but with no weight on it?

Thanks

The starting point is with no weight at all on the wheels. Gustavo explains it in the first post.

Just a thought after reading all the great reparte'....

Gustavo,
could you make up a chart for all of us......breaking it down, by body/gear weight?
so all any of us has to do is sorta zero out the bike at the max/mins then just dial in the spec for our individual needs?
I don't know if that's too much to ask... I certainly understand it better but still and all...it seems to be a daunting task...but after hearing Lcon2's raves, a solid 'ballpark' starting point (by weight, assuming all the bikes are pretty much Identical to start ) sure would help. then we just have to make small adjustments to suit personal taste.

Call it....A suspension set-up cheat sheet
(cuz after all....I'm not very bright but I can lift heavy things....LOL).

anyway...thanks for the education.

Thanks Gustavo.

Gustavo

The factory setting is BS as I weigh in at 70Kgs and no movements at all. Got stlee to help me set the bike . Used the same method that you have writen very well. We did also adjusted MYRED bike after he complain about hard rides.
Thanks for the post and better to make a weight chart (stagehand38) for easy reference.

:cheers:

have been just sing gustavo lesson's on how to measure sag with the help of my patient wife. there was a 23mm diff in front and a 39mm in rear with the pre load of rear shock set as per photo ( have been on this setting since ownned bike 10,000km) then i wound the rear spring down and the front was 20 mm and rear 26mm.


1, As from a previuos thread of mine this is a aftermarket spring where should i set that preload? I weight 80 kg's, do not usually carry a pillion but use my top box a bit and side bins only when away for a longer trip.
2, after some discussion it is clear that the front need to adjusted, how much do you adjust, a freind of mine sent me a picture with a 20mm or .8 inch adjustment, would that be a good start. It will go to a bike shop but i want to have some knowlege of what i am asking them to do.

Please explain in suspension for dummies lingo as i learning but have gained a lot of knowlege off this forum already.

:feedback::feedback::cheers:

I just did the adjustments. I'm 230lbs and got a rear setting of 4, 5 if I have any extra weight. My front is messed up, no matter how I set it it's at 25MM so I put it close to the middle, 8. Any suggestions????

Is the starting point from on the kickstand or upright but with no weight on it?

You are getting only 25mm of sag with you sitting on the bike? Seems low for a 230 lbs. rider, even if you are not testing with your gear on. With the OE suspension I used to get 35mm of sag with no gear on and I not quite 150 lbs.

The starting point is with no load on the bike. Putting it on the sidestand gets you pretty close to it. When it's on the stand, try pushing it to the left (with you standing on the right) and see how much the suspension unloads. If it's more than a couple of mm, definitely add that to your measurement.

Gustavo

could you make up a chart for all of us......breaking it down, by body/gear weight?
so all any of us has to do is sorta zero out the bike at the max/mins then just dial in the spec for our individual needs?


I'd love to do that, but I'm not sure extrapolating based on my own measurements will be reliable enough. I did help Mac and Al setup their bikes, but I don't remember the settings we ended up with nor did I ask how much they weigh... :topsecret: Next time there is a VIAGRA lunch ride, I can get a few guys on a stock bike and take notes to share with the forum. Based on the lousy weather we've been having around here, it may be a while, though. :mad:

Gustavo

I'd love to do that, but I'm not sure extrapolating based on my own measurements will be reliable enough. I did help Mac and Al setup their bikes, but I don't remember the settings we ended up with nor did I ask how much they weigh... :topsecret: Next time there is a VIAGRA lunch ride, I can get a few guys on a stock bike and take notes to share with the forum. Based on the lousy weather we've been having around here, it may be a while, though. :mad:

Gustavo

Thanks for the consideration Gustavo,
and I'll reread your thesis ...several more' times :confused:,:p and see what I can do on my end. and keep some notes on where I started from (factory settings).
Can't help but feel there's a way to stream-line the process for everyone; at least from the prospective of total average payload rate (rider + gear).
with my very limited knowledge a standardized charting of settings seems doable....

Best to you and thanks for the quick reply.

Ride safe
be well
Peace.

Carl

If we knew the exact rate of the spring. We could calculate the additional force being applied by each step of the adjuster. Then if every spring measured the same (not likely) you could have a starting point if you knew how much load you were applying. On my bike there was no static sag until I reduced the preload to the lightest setting. It rode decently there so that is where I left it.

But if your trying to offset cargo, knowing how many lbs of force you put into the spring with each click of the preload adjuster might help.

So if the stock spring is straight rate @ 17kg/mm or 950lbs/in and each step of the preload adjuster compressed the spring 1.5mm then each step in the adjuster would offset 56lbs of cargo.


1 pound / in = 0.0178579673 kilograms / millimeter

I've got the thick service manual for my 2008 Versys.... I wanted to soften the front forks and went to the page to re-do the front suspension... it stated about what to turn counter etc clockwise BUT!!! didn't state is that on each side? (each front fork) or just the right side then in the manual it states in bold lettering - [If both adjusters are not adjusted equally, handling may be inpaired and a hazardous conditon may result] OK I thought - I marked each adjusting cap on the top of the forks and then I could always return to what I had - when I did this firstly on the right (throttle side of the handlebars) fork - per as it states in the manual - no problem... when I checked the clutch side that setting was totally different to the other side? I couldn't turn too far before it locked tight... so now I was completely confused - after checking this several times - I kinda felt that I was going to get into trouble so i re-set it up as it was before.... kinda confused on this - any answers here for me... the service manual only mentions (the throttle side) the adjustment on the right fork - nothing towards the left side [SUSPENSION 13 -9 in the manual] also - if you move the large nut to re-set that postion - do you use a flat faced srewdriver to keep that centre small adjuster where it is or does that turn with the main nut when you move that - now are you confused - cause I am (again!) the book doesn't state this point so I kinda thing that you don't - any help on this would be muchly appreicated thanks.... cathcya Andreas

Hi cathcya,

First off you shouldn't worry about what has occurred. I'm not looking at the manual but there is nothing you can do to the outside of the Versys fork that will put them out of balance.

ALL motorcycle forks act as a single force between the triple clamp (handlebars) and the front axle. So you can't get them out of balance (especially the versys fork).

The large nuts on the top are for adding pre-load to the springs inside the forks. You can improve handling if you are a really big guy by turning them clockwise. The more you turn them clockwise the more force is stored in the springs (which hold the bike up).

The small slotted screw head on the right fork leg is for adjusting rebound damping. The determines how quickly the fork leg returns after being compressed. Adjust this setting to your personal preference. You can severely effect handling with this screw. So small adjustments and test rides are important. I wouldn't make more than a complete turn of this screw in any single adjustment.

This screw is independent of the pre-load adjusters. Do not hold it while turning the large pre-load adjusters. Also be careful when turning the rebound adjuster full clockwise. You can damage the needle / seat inside the fork. Just gently bottom out the adjuster counting the # of turns you used to reach the bottom. Write that # down. This is your starting point. This is also how you know where to put the stock setting if they provide a number of turns.

Andreas - You adjust both forks for preload. My best guess is that the preload dialed into your forks was not equal, but if you start at either end of the adjustment range, you should be able to turn both nuts the same number of turns from min to max preload. As Phoneman mentions, you do not need to worry the rebound adjuster while you make preload adjustments. The best thing to do is set both forks to minimum preload and measure sag (as explained in the first page of this thread), the adjust both forks to arrive at the correct sag for you. If you make your adjustments by turning both fork caps the same number of turns you can easily make adjustments later. Don't forget to write where you end up after your measurements, so you can just make corrections later if you need them, rather than start over.


Phoneman - Unless the suspension is topped out when you add preload, all you are doing is changing the ride height. The energy stored in the spring is always equal to the mass of the bike (unloaded if you are doing it while standing next to it or loaded if you are adjusting while sitting on it).


Gustavo

Phoneman - Unless the suspension is topped out when you add preload, all you are doing is changing the ride height. The energy stored in the spring is always equal to the mass of the bike (unloaded if you are doing it while standing next to it or loaded if you are adjusting while sitting on it).Gustavo

Non-the less by cranking on the preload adjuster you are storing energy into the spring. I don't think I ever said that the energy stored in the spring equaled anything.

So are you trying to hit me on the head with a force vector or had I said something that wasn't helpful to the gentleman with the question. Or perhaps these threads are territorial.

Non-the less by cranking on the preload adjuster you are storing energy into the spring


If the suspension WAS already fully extended, THEN increasing the preload would increase the compression on the spring (because the fork tube or shock couldn’t extend any more) — however (as Gustavo said) if the suspension wasn’t already fully extended (topped out), you’re not storing more energy in the spring, you’re just lifting the bike. The weight on - and therefore the compression of - the spring (stored energy) remains the same.

It’s like climbing a ladder; go up a step and you are higher but the weight on the ladder hasn’t changed... but once your head contacts the ceiling, trying to go up another step will increase the down-force on the ladder -- usually compressing something like the vertebrae in one’s neck :o

It’s like climbing a ladder; go up a step and you are higher but the weight on the ladder hasn’t changed... but once your head contacts the ceiling, trying to go up another step will increase the down-force on the ladder -- usually compressing something like the vertebrae in one’s neck :o

Once again my response to the original question was to help describe the inside of a black box (fork). The preload adjuster is just squishing a spring. Both forks act as one so having the preload different in each fork is not an issue.

Compressing a spring and climbing a ladder are not alike. I'm not sure if its semantics or what that you have issue with. Greater force is placed on the spring when the preload adjuster is turned clockwise. The spring is captured between two fixed points. On an open bath cartridge fork (like the V) it its the top of the cartridge and the fork cap. The spring (if properly sized) when installed will not measure the same length as when it is free.

The main spring is exerting force on the cap and against the outside of the cartridge. On the inside of the cartridge the damper rod is being pulled against a top out spring which is exerting force in the opposite direction.

A "SPRING" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke%27s_law) will have a greater resistance to initial movement the more that it is statically compressed. As the adjuster is compressing the spring the "restorative energy" in the spring is being increased (stored). Until the fork tops out this energy is less than the weight of the motorcycle when the fork is installed on the machine. However if the fork is off the bike and is assembled properly the topout spring will always be engaged (topped out).

I'm not sure if its semantics or what that you have issue with. Greater force is placed on the spring when the preload adjuster is turned clockwise. The spring is captured between two fixed points. On an open bath cartridge fork (like the V) it its the top of the cartridge and the fork cap. The spring (if properly sized) when installed will not measure the same length as when it is free.

The main spring is exerting force on the cap and against the outside of the cartridge. On the inside of the cartridge the damper rod is being pulled against a top out spring which is exerting force in the opposite direction.


All that is correct when you assemble the the fork and the slider is fully extended (that's what you describe in the last paragraph). Once you place the forks on the bike and load them with the bike's weight, the fork legs are no longer fully extended (unless the springs are too stiff for the application, but this is unlikely to be the case on most stock bikes) because the bike's weight compresses them to some extent. Now add rider weight and the fork is further compressed (even on the Versys with it's relatively stiff springs). When you add preload from this point (with rider on board - when measuring rider sag), you are not compressing the spring, you are just making the top of the fork move up (and I think this is a very important distinction to make, as there is a lot of confusion as to what gets adjusted and what happens to the suspension as a result of this adjustment). The spring remains exactly the same length as it was before changing the preload as there was no change in the force that compresses it. If you topped out in the process of adjusting preload, you are either adding too much preload for your weight or you have springs that are not right for the application.


Gustavo

Agreed.

If you topped out in the process of adjusting preload, you are either adding too much preload for your weight or you have springs that are not right for the application.Gustavo

The "dynamic" aspect of putting too much preload into a spring that is too soft for the bike's + your weight is that the ride will be harsh. Especially on a progressively wound spring. If the forks are topped out on the bike from preload the springs are too soft. (true!)

When you get the static sag right, you still may not have "setup" the bike optimally for your riding conditions or weight. The energy that the preload adjuster stores into the spring has to be overcome when the fork is rebounding from hitting something. This is why getting the average ride height at around 30% can't optimally be done with a spreadsheet.

This dynamic situation of too much preload not enough spring rate is often encountered on the other end of the bike. We tend to load all of our luggage and loved ones on the back.

Although there are a few people I'd like to strap to the front (kind of mad max style.)

... The spring is captured between two fixed points...


While most of what you’re saying is correct, your conclusion is based on that premise that “The spring is captured between two fixed points” and that’s not true unless & until the forks are fully extended. At any less than full extension, the top of the fork is able to rise, which is what it does when you increase the setting on the preload adjuster, which is why the spring doesn’t compress any further. In short (assuming it’s not already fully extended) when you screw in the preload adjuster, the top of the spring doesn’t go down... the top of the fork goes up.


...my response to the original question was ... Both forks act as one so having the preload different in each fork is not an issue.


While a minor imbalance between the fork preload settings shouldn’t be cause for concern, a major one certainly could be.

To exaggerate the issue for clarity; picture the situation if there were no spring in one tube... When you hit a bump the Wheel/Axle/Forks would still move as a single unit but the torsional load on the axle and its retainer would be tremendous because all the resistance would be on the side with the spring.

Again for clarity, picture the rear suspension on an old dual spring/shock design and the effect of removing one spring/shock. The Wheel/Axel/Swingarm would still move as a unit but the asymmetrical resistance to the load (bump) would most certainly twist the swingarm – which is why mono-shock designs have and require such massive & rigid swingarms.

Gustavo, Thanks again for making a very thorough and helpful post.

Hardware, WOW!

Hey guys, especially Gustavo; riddle me this. Using Gustavo's method for measuring and adjusting the front suspension I discovered that the front preload was not at 7 per factor but in fact at 1. When I tried to use the zip tye method to set static sag I brought it all the way down to 12 and I'm still only getting 25.43mm of sag. Now I weight 170 Lbs. What do you all think is up with that:feedback:

I just took the bike for a quick test ride on the twist and in places bumpy road around the lake we live by and the front suspension does feel less harsh. But what do I know, I've only riding now beginning my third season and only have a little over 9K miles on the bike.:confused:

Using Gustavo's method for measuring and adjusting the front suspension I discovered that the front preload was not at 7 per factor but in fact at 1.


Just to make sure we are talking about the same things, when you say it was at 1, you mean it was one turn out from fully tightened clockwise (maximum preload or 0 turns out, per the manual)?



When I tried to use the zip tye method to set static sag I brought it all the way down to 12 and I'm still only getting 25.43mm of sag. Now I weight 170 Lbs. What do you all think is up with that:feedback:

I can think of two things that would cause that. First, make sure you are balancing long enough for the suspension to compress before taking the measurement. Second, did you unload the suspension completely to get the baseline length of the slider? If you are working by yourself, you may want to use 170mm as the total length (seems about average of what I have measured on different Versys) and then subtract the distance from the zip-tie to the bottom of the fork.

In this picture, the zip-tie is at 134mm, the dust seal shows 153mm. but the actual sag is 36mm (170mm - 134mm) because the bike's weight already compressed springs some 17mm.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2310/2460130171_23db84b8cb_o.jpg


Hope this helps,

Gustavo

Thanks for that Gustavo.... I did check another booklet that I bought off eBay - which is the "Dealership Assmebly & Preparation Manual" for my model (approx 36 page booklet) and it states in there quite clearly (page 23 -Preparation section) says - "CAUTION - The right and left Fork tubes must be adjusted evenly" but intersting that the Service manual doesn't state that... hence my confusion here.... obviously my is not set-up correctly - also I found that this maunal comes with every bike that is delivered and can be requested by the new owner if they wish too... it's just not mentioned to them.... so something to consider... Thanks all for the help and advice... catchya Andreas

Just to make sure we are talking about the same things, when you say it was at 1, you mean it was one turn out from fully tightened clockwise (maximum preload or 0 turns out, per the manual)?

*{Yes, when I first started the adjustment process I "assumed" that the thing was factory set correctly, when things did feel right I turned it all the way clockwise to check I found that it had only been set one turn out}*



I can think of two things that would cause that. First, make sure you are balancing long enough for the suspension to compress before taking the measurement. Second, did you unload the suspension completely to get the baseline length of the slider? If you are working by yourself, you may want to use 170mm as the total length (seems about average of what I have measured on different Versys) and then subtract the distance from the zip-tie to the bottom of the fork.

In this picture, the zip-tie is at 134mm, the dust seal shows 153mm. but the actual sag is 36mm (170mm - 134mm) because the bike's weight already compressed springs some 17mm.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2310/2460130171_23db84b8cb_o.jpg


Hope this helps,

Gustavo

*{That makes much more sense using 170mm. That puts me right at 36mm of sag. Thanks for all your help}*

Hi Gustavo and all the other members who responded to the issue raised in my original thread.

I had no idea it would prompt such a detailed discussion, but am most grateful for the very detailed advise/explanations from Gustavo, in particular. As I don't have many friends either, the the approaches suggested are very useful!

Happy riding all.

Steve

Gustavo,

What effect will having Speedy's lowering kit installed on the rear shock have on suspension setup? What would be a good baseline measurement to start with for the rear suspension with this installed and what percentage of sag should I be looking for?:confused:

Lowering the bike (if you only lower it in the rear with Speedy's linkage) will transfer more weight to the rear and will result in more sag than originally measure there. At the same time, you'll see less sag in the front for the same reason.

If you have a linkage, but haven't measured the sag yet, you do it just as described above. If you measured pre lowering, I'd measure again to see how much it's changed.

Gustavo

Here's a question, can I still get accurate measurements if I use a rear stand as the third person to stabilize the bike? I'm trying to figure out how I can do this by myself or just with my wife...

The problem with taking measurements when the bike is on a rear stand is that because of the height differences, you put more weight on the front (and less on the rear) than you would under normal conditions. How much more/less is hard to say, it depends on how you sit on the bike vs. how you sit when the bike is leaning forward.

But, this is still better than nothing, so if you take these measurements that way, make sure you don't setup the bike to be at the top of the range (little sag) in the front and bottom of the range (a lot of sag) in the rear.

Gustavo

...
If you can't measure it, use a total length of 170 (based on measurements I did on several Versys, 170 seems to be fairly close to representative. It's better if you verify by measuring, though), not 150. ...


Regarding the apparent discrepancy between the 150 mm factory spec fork travel and the actual...

As you noted, at full extension the measured exposed inner tube is around 170 mm (mine is 173) – but is all of that actually available for usable travel, i.e., can the fork compress all the way down to the axle holder or will something internally (e.g. the spring) bottom out first?

I tried compressing it while I had them off the bike but I’m not heavy enough :D

Thanks
.

Regarding the apparent discrepancy between the 150 mm factory spec fork travel and the actual...

As you noted, at full extension the measured exposed inner tube is around 170 mm (mine is 173) – but is all of that actually available for usable travel, i.e., can the fork compress all the way down to the axle holder or will something internally (e.g. the spring) bottom out first?



I don't think there is a discrepancy. It's just that the length of the inner tube is longer than the actual stroke available. That is, you can't make the outer tube go down all the way to the base of the inner tube when the fork internals are installed. That's what throws a lot of people off, because it seems like you have close to the listed 150mm of travel exposed there (so you assume that it is all part of the available travel), but when you measure sag, you realize there are an extra ~20mm that are already compressed under the weight of the bike.

Gustavo

... you can't make the outer tube go down all the way to the base of the inner tube when the fork internals are installed...


Thanks Gustavo, that’s what I thought... but without being able to test/fully compress it, I wasn’t sure...
.

Hello, can you please make some of the things clearer for me:

- How do you know that 25-33/25-35% is normal SAG for Versys? Couldn't find this info? All I keep finding is 30mm value, but I think that is for sport bikes?
- If the total travel for front forks is 170mm (~175 on my Versys), why you're using 150mm when calculating sag?


Front - 25%-33% compression (or 37.5-49.5mm out of a total of 150mm travel available)
Rear - 25%-35% compression (or 36-51mm out of a total of 145mm travel available)

I'm new to suspension adjustments but want to set it up correctly, because after riding on track I noticed that there are 5mm of chicken stripes on rear tire even with footpegs scraping. I'm approx 205lbs, so I guess this is probably because I need to increase preload from the OEM settings.

Thanks!

Stock front suspension lateral travel is 150mm. Fork travel (165.5mm) is more than actual lateral travel because forks are at a castor angle of 25 degrees. Sag of about 30% of total travel is the general consensus. It may vary depending on conditions, riding style, etc.
Having the correct spring rate to start with is crucial. Switching from stock rear ~914 lbs/in spring (average of 895 and 933 claims) to 800 lbs/in allows full use of the suspension's usable range with a normal sag setting. At 210 lbs solo, it still offers ample support with a passenger... Stock softish fork springs offer marginal support in demanding conditions at maximum preload, which results in less than average sag.
I actually capped my forks cooled to 20F to have about 5 psi (more than atmospheric pressure) at normal (70F) ambient temperature, allowing 3 turns out on preload. There is already considerable support in the forks from air compression alone, which is highly progressive.

Hi send, I see invader answered some iof your questions, I'll just clarify a couple of things.

Hello, can you please make some of the things clearer for me:

- How do you know that 25-33/25-35% is normal SAG for Versys? Couldn't find this info? All I keep finding is 30mm value, but I think that is for sport bikes?
- If the total travel for front forks is 170mm (~175 on my Versys), why you're using 150mm when calculating sag?

The sag values I use are standard street bike sag ranges. You will also see them quoted in mm as you listed above, but that usually refers to street (and more likely sport) bike standard suspension travel that used to be around 120mm in the front. Now days even some sport bikes have longer travel than that, so just going with a fixed sag length doesn't always work. Much less when you have 150mm of travel.

The total travel is not 170mm, that's the length of the exposed inner tube. On my bike, the suspension hits the stops about 20mm before the physical end of the tube above the axle. That's why despite the fact that you see 170mm of tube, the actual travel is closer to 150mm.





I'm new to suspension adjustments but want to set it up correctly, because after riding on track I noticed that there are 5mm of chicken stripes on rear tire even with footpegs scraping. I'm approx 205lbs, so I guess this is probably because I need to increase preload from the OEM settings.


As I mentioned above in other replies, I'd start with measuring and adjusting sag first. In your case, you may want to keep your sag at the lower end of the range (i.e. less sag) to see if that helps with th clearance issues. You can always take out even more sag, but I suspect that if you ride on the street with almost no sag the ride wont be that pleasant over bumpy roads where the suspension will struggle to extend to follow the road.

Gustavo

Thanks Invader and Gustavo, you definitely made some things clearer. Now I'll read the whole thread again with more concentration.

Hi Gustavo and Phoneman064,

I am really interested in doing the suspension adjustment soon to get the ideal setup for me riding alone with light accessories, and me riding with wife + full loading of V35 panniers. so, currently i am studying all the theories and practical methods available. At the same time, it would be my first time doing such adjustment, so i really want to understand the magic of doing these setup, and avoid damaging the components.. few questions:-

1. What does it mean by 1 turn; is it 360degree turn??

2. I believe the best setup method is to remove preload to its minimum (counterclockwise) and do the correct sag first, then only setting the dampening screw carefully and not more than 1 turn, rite?

3. I used to refer to Dave Moss video at youtube showing setup of ideal sag, about 35-40mm. is this measurement suitable for our Versys?

4. what is the golden rule for setting dampening screw? let say if we add preload to the forks, does the dampening should be turn to the other way round (counterclockwise)? or it can be turn clockwise simultaneously (depend on how we want the suspension effect to be)?

5. in Dave Moss video, he did remove the preload to its minimum before starting to measure sag. However, he did advise whenever we turned it to its minimum, we may want to turn it clockwise little bit (maybe 1/4 clockwise turn) . is this advisable to our Versys?


Really appreciate your comment(s).

By the way, when adjusting spring preload for desired sag, you're actually setting proper "ride height"... Some variants are expected with spring rates that are not ideal (soft fork springs, stiff rear shock spring).

Hi Invader :o,

I am really interested in doing the suspension adjustment soon to get the ideal setup for me riding alone with light accessories, and me riding with wife + full loading of V35 panniers. so, currently i am studying all the theories and practical methods available. At the same time, it would be my first time doing such adjustment, so i really want to understand the magic of doing these setup, and avoid damaging the components.. few questions:-

1. What does it mean by 1 turn; is it 360degree turn??

2. I believe the best setup method is to remove preload to its minimum (counterclockwise) and do the correct sag first, then only setting the dampening screw carefully and not more than 1 turn, rite?

3. I used to refer to Dave Moss video at youtube showing setup of ideal sag, about 35-40mm. is this measurement suitable for our Versys?

4. what is the golden rule for setting dampening screw? let say if we add preload to the forks, does the dampening should be turn to the other way round (counterclockwise)? or it can be turn clockwise simultaneously (depend on how we want the suspension effect to be)?

5. in Dave Moss video, he did remove the preload to its minimum before starting to measure sag. However, he did advise whenever we turned it to its minimum, we may want to turn it clockwise little bit (maybe 1/4 clockwise turn) . is this advisable to our Versys?


Really appreciate your comment(s).

1- Yes

2- Sure... I increase spring preload just enough (forks near maximum with about 1/2`3/4 turn counterclockwise from turned clockwise all the way, rear #3 with 10 clicks from hardest) to prevent bottoming out hard in the worst conditions, and set enough rebound damping for sufficient motion control.

3- ~25% -30% of Versys' longer travel suspensions result in a bit more measured sag.

4- More damping (clockwise) is required as you increase preload settings.

5- Yes, that works on Versys too.

I noticed in the showroom the rear shock was on factory setting of 5 (two from the top). Bike was topped out on the side stand. I asked the salesman if we could drop it down a few clicks. He said OK. I weigh 200 lbs. I put it on the notch before bottom #(2). It felt better to me. When I got home, I measured the rear sag with me on it. I got 45 mm.

Do the math, 5.7" travel times 25.4 (convert to mm) = 144.78 mm or 149 mm.

149 times 30% = 44.7 or 45mm Howdoyagoforthat?

Click #2 of 7 for a 200 lb person solo. I will set it on #3 and check sag again.

Bike was stiff as can be when I left the dealer. After a couple hundred miles it loosened up a lot.

Putting a zip tie on the front today.

Thanks to everyone for the warning about the cheesy spanner wrench to adjust the shock.

David

My numbers:

1,70m
70kg
original bike setup
front rider sag = 33mm
rear rider sag = 38mm

[]s

If I retire next year, chances are I'll keep the Versys long term and maybe go down the replacement route for the rear and get the front forks worked on. TBH, it's not often I've ever strayed from the factory settings except on my Fazer 1000 (that really needed some tweaking). But I'm quite sure fitting high quality bits and bobs will transform the bike.

I have been screwing with the suspension for 3 weeks and a few thousand miles. I found the sweet spot.

Front I have been up and down with the preload. Right now its at 35mm which seems to be best. This is at 5 turns out. I also found from all my checking one turn equals about 1 mm of sag. SO I have an adjustment of about 30 to 45 mm sag in front.

The rebound screw I have had in and out too. 2 turns is a little soft, but good for highway traveling. 1.5 turns is all I need to keep the bike from bouncing. I keep it somewhere between those two numbers. 1 3/4 is factory recommended setting.

For the rear, one click on the preload is 5 mm of sag change going from a max of 50 to a minimum of 20 with the spring preload all the way tight. 35 or 40 feels pretty good to me.
With the preload turned all the way up, I cannot reach the ground.

Rebound I find works best around 7 or 8 out unless I am riding hard then the bike can get out of shape an I need a little more Like the factory recommended 5 clicks out.

Most of my riding is commuting to and from work so I keep it a little soft.


I fixed the cheesy wrench by welding a dollar screwdriver to the wrench and I keep it under the seat in the U lock spot.

http://fudpucker.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Mypics/i-mRnZNkR/0/L/IMG20110908191750-L.jpg

David Loving my new V.

3 weeks old, 2400 miles 3 oil changes, one tire (hole) Tons of smiles.

If the front and rear are balanced or matched, the bike seems to be in its sweet spot. Its light on its feet like a cat, but does not buck me off on the bigger bumps.

Maybe this video can help your ride set-up :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keInRV2N6-w