Does anyone have the Hyperpro progressive rate springs on their Versys?

I should be ordering the front and rear springs set soon from http://www.wilbersusa.com/hyperpro-springs.htm
Fork Spring-Kit: SP-KA06-SSA018 - $148
Shock-Kit: SP-KA06-SSB018 - $110
Combi-Kit: SP-KA06-SSC018 - $248
I can get the Combi-Kit for $289 including shipping to Canada, or for $275 without the included fork oil, as I plan to use Amsoil's synthetic suspension fluid in the forks...

Cool. Let us know what you think of the new springs once you get them installed.

Actually... Now that I've finally tried my new Versys, I don't feel the need to replace the springs yet, even on our rough roads and out in the field.
I'm 185 lbs and the forks are at 0 turns out for maximum preload, with 1/2 a turn out on rebound damping. Rear is at #2 from softest preload, at least until spring seats a bit, with rebound damping at 10 clicks out...

Actually... Now that I've finally tried my new Versys, I don't feel the need to replace the springs yet, even on our rough roads and out in the field.
I'm 185 lbs and the forks are at 0 turns out for maximum preload, with 1/2 a turn out on rebound damping. Rear is at #2 from softest preload, at least until spring seats a bit, with rebound damping at 10 clicks out...

I didn't know the damping rate was adjustable. I'll have to play around with that.
I'm about the same weight, so I'll start with the same settings as you. Let me know if you tweek it some more.

Right on Brock... Front rebound damping setting is done with the screw on the right fork only. 1/2 turn out means 1/2 turn counterclockwise from the maximum clockwise setting where it's at the stiffest setting. Do not tighten screw to prevent damaging the seat. Maximum front fork spring preload (or ride height) is done with both hex adjusters turned in clockwise all the way.
Rear rebound damping setting is now set at 10 clicks away from the 'H' stiffest setting towards 'S'. Rear spring preload is now at #2 from softest (lowest ride height) setting until it seats a bit, and I do have an aftermarket exhaust (Muzzy header and slip-on silencer) that is about 12 lbs lighter than stock...

So I had to go up to #3 on rear preaload to prevent bottoming out, still at 10 clicks ot on rebound damping. I'm starting to feel the need for a progressive rear spring though. The front could benefit much from progressive springs as well... Maybe for next year, or sooner since the trade market is really paying off these days in the mining sector...

Im going to try adjusting my front suspension this weekend and let you know the conclusion. I want to rectify the major nose diving when applying the front brakes...

Any changes Invader? I am about to pull the trigger on some hyperpro progressive springs front and rear.

We weigh about the same (I'm like 192 lbs with riding gear), is there a number chart to pick the right spring or do they just have one spring?

Strangely compared to your settings, on the front I am backed off of preload to the stops and dampening is 1 turn (counterclockwise) off closed. Rear is very stiff at #2 preload or #3, dampening is 3 clicks off closed. My front is better than the rear, but still a bit stiff.

I'm thinking the progressive springs would give more usable range plus not so stiff hopefully!

I have the HyperPro progressive springs (And the HP shock.) on my Tiger 1050, and I'm very pleased w/them. However, I agree. I don't really see the need on the V. I have adjusted my suspension to very firm settings, and find it quite acceptable.

Any changes Invader? I am about to pull the trigger on some hyperpro progressive springs front and rear.

We weigh about the same (I'm like 192 lbs with riding gear), is there a number chart to pick the right spring or do they just have one spring?

Strangely compared to your settings, on the front I am backed off of preload to the stops and dampening is 1 turn (counterclockwise) off closed. Rear is very stiff at #2 preload or #3, dampening is 3 clicks off closed. My front is better than the rear, but still a bit stiff.

I'm thinking the progressive springs would give more usable range plus not so stiff hopefully!

No further changes yet... How many turns away from max preload on the front? I'm at just 1/2 turn out on front rebound damping to handle max preload. Try backing off rear rebound damping to 10 clicks out like mine. It rides very well with my settings, and can take a real beating in the rough backroads with impressive composure, stability and comfort. I'd like to get a road side video speeding on big gravel road bumps... I might still get HyperPro progressive springs for next year. They only have one grade of front and rear springs for all models

Okay, I ordered the front and back hyperpro springs, will install when they come in and report back. While I have the stockers adjusted about as well as they can get, I still think we can do better without buying a wilbers rear shock.

Have you at least tried to back off rear rebound damping to 10 clicks away from stiffest position yet? 3 clicks off closed is much too restrictive, causing the rear supension to stay hung up in compressed position. About 10 clicks off would probably also work well with the new HyperPro spring...

Think I have been about everywhere, with the dampening backed off, it kicks off bumps harder. Actually where I am now is pretty good, but I think it can get much better.

What I am up against, is the super suspension of the GT, just absorbs all bumps while sticking to corners like glue. I get off that and the V kicks me in the butt on even little bumps and trys to unsettle on hard corners.

I don't expect it to be as good as the Beemer, but just trying to improve with least amount of money.

I do not think the Versys needs any type of suspension work unless you are wanting to soften it up for dirtroads. The Versys is one of the best handling bikes made. My XR650R motard is a lot of fun and I have spent a lot of money on the suspension but the Versys will stick right with it on just about any kind of road. You can grind the footrest off on the black top and the Versys just stays planted. The only time that I low sided was when the Givis touch down and you have to be way over for that to happen. :eek:That is the reason I am on my second Versys. :D

Mountainrider is right. We have a bike you can ride hard and fast right out of the box. Did I just say ride hard and fast?:p

Got my hyperpro springs in yesterday. Had to make a ring to mount over end of shock spring to allow me to press and remove. No easy feat, I recommend taking it to someone with a real spring compressor unless you have a hydralic press and can fit a proper ring.

Mounted and ran it on preload #2, and searched for all my local bumps that I usually try to avoid. Don't have to go far to find them around here!;) The spring is better than stock but still a little on the stiff side, so I moved it back to preload #1 and will test later. Hyperpro recommends #1 or #2 for preload and 5 - 10mm static sag, and rebound dampening position #2.

Used the HR100 lift to pull shock :thumb:

P.S. Hyperpro includes a spring mounting manual and explains all settings in detail.

Right on, versys guy! :thumb: That purple doesn't look as bad as I thought. It looks bluer than what they usually had...
The V's great suspensions can only be better with quality Hyper Pro 'Racing Suspension Technology' (http://www.hyperpro.com/products/springkits.asp) (Dutch) progressive springs. My OEM rear spring has sagged even more now at 2100 Kms (1300 miles) and I have to go up to #4 preload. Yours should set in as well. Did you use the included Hyper Pro fork oil? What weight number is it?
Hyper Pro USA now shows the Versys (http://www.hyperprousa.com/catalog.php?cat=Springs&make=Kawasaki&model=KAWASAKI+VERSYS+650+07%3E&model_name=KAWASAKI+VERSYS+650+07%3E&ordertype=) application.

I have not put the fork springs in yet, going to change one thing at a time so I can get a feel for it. The Hypro oil for the forks is sae 15 wt.

I agree on the sag increaseing over time, my stock spring was getting better or I was getting used to it.

Going for a ride this morning and will test the new rear on preload #1 and rebound on #2.

Okay, after a pretty good shake down run this morning, I now like the rear and can really tell the forks are stiff now in comparison. Have to build 3 special tools to replace oil and springs in forks, probably in a few days. Golf tomorrow so it must wait, ha.

Update: 8/8/08 Front fork springs installed today, will test in the morning. Built the 3 "special" tools and worked great!

Update on the hyperpro springs. I am keeping the forks but went back to stock with the rear spring. After 2 seperate 3 hour rides, the bumps are worse at speed, I believe the stock was better.

On a side note, I visited the nearest Aprilia shop (84 miles to Longview, Tx) and their Shiver rear shock appears to be a perfect fit to the Versys. I measured eye to eye but could not tell if it used the 12mm bolts but pretty sure it does. So, heads up to anyone looking for a change, if you know a Shiver owner that may be going for after market shocks it might be worthwhile to try out the stock Shiver rear shock!

I know AF1 in New Brunfels, Tx is building a track bike from a wrecked shiver and has sent off the stock rear shock to penske to build a replacement!

Out of curiosity, is the Hyperpro rear spring shorter than stock?

No, they are the same size, but it seems to load up faster, the initial feel is better.

Anyone wants to try it I have one for sale, ha.

I believe they make 2 versions of the Hyperpro rear spring: One is normal length and the other one lowers the seat 1'. For us shorties, the shorter spring is a better option than a lowering link, because for aproximately the same money, it also improves the suspension. My 2 cents.

HyperPro does have a 30 mm (1.2") lowering rear spring available for the Versys, only on its own without the fork springs. http://www.hyperprousa.com/catalog.php?cat=Springs&make=Kawasaki&model=KAWASAKI+VERSYS+650+07%3E+lowering+30+mm&model_name=KAWASAKI+VERSYS+650+07%3E+lowering+30+m m&ordertype=

versys_guy: I noticed the great similarity with Aprilia's Shiver 750 rear shock and overall motorcycle design as well. Maybe you can get its rear shock from AF1 when they get it back from Penske...

Fournales Suspension (http://www.fournales.fr/presentation/concept-technique/) of France makes a pneumatic/hydraulic rear shock that uses compressed nitrogen instead of a spring. It is said to be the ultimate for comfort and control. Adjustable and used in many street, off road and competition applications. http://www.fournales.fr/catalogue/2_Roues/MONOC_-_Kawasaki_-_KTM_-_Martin_-_Peugeot.htm
http://www.fournales.fr/competition/
Some guy in the french forum installed one made for an ER6/Ninja 650R on his Versys and loves it. The ER6 shock is 1 cm shorter than the Versys', and it lowered his seat height by 2 cm (0.8").
http://www.kawette.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17822&highlight=amortisseur

Invaders comment:-
"can take a real beating in the rough backroads with impressive composure, stability and comfort."
His Versys is definitely not the same bike I have got.
Mine is hard! Standard it was real harsh too on the back end.
I have fixed the harshness with an aftermarket Hagon shock but both ends are still too hard for very bumpy back roads. I wonder if the uk market ones are stiffer than the USA ones? I asked Kawasaki UK what the spring rates are but they wont tell me.

Ted99uk.

I was used to my stiff suspended and dampened 2002 WR426F... Although it had different springs and settings for the European version, I'd be surprised if UK's Versys was sprung differently from the American one. The Versys is in fact harshly sprung, enough to work and be compliant only when pushed harder and faster in rougher conditions. I do weigh about 190 lbs and had to start at #2 preload rear until it sat out at #4 preload by 2000 miles, still with 10 clicks out on damping (starting from Hard). Forks are still at maximum preload and 1/2 turn out (counterclock) on damping. I will replace fork fluid with Amsoil's synthetic Shock Therapy suspension fluid this winter, and add spring preload shims if I don't get progressive springs. Progressive Suspension USA may be able to match a set for me.

I weigh 200 lbs plus kit and even with Hagon fitting a softer spring than their standard spring on the rear shock it is definitely too hard still. There is no plushness there at all.
It is proving a challenge to get it sorted but I will persevere.
Ted99uk

So you have rebound and compression or high compression and low compression damping settings on your Hagon shock absorber? What settings have you tried?

The Hagon shock has one adjuster screw for both rebound and compression. Hagon have set it for their considered best ratio between the two, with much more rebound damping than compression.
I was advised by an expert to try more damping to make it softer. I tried and to my astonishment it did make it better but not enough. It is pretty critical though. Half a turn too far and it is rock hard. The explanation was that the rebound is too fast and you need to slow it down. I had felt that it was too hard because of too much compression damping.
Fascinating subject.
Ted99uk

i have a hagon on my tiger, and it's held up well. vast improvement over stock, though I wish the damping circuits weren't linked(it's really not a problem, though). there are bushings at both ends instead of bearings, so I do need to lube them once a year or so.
i'll probably order one for the V, at 3mm longer than stock and about 5% less spring rate. i've emailed dave quinn, so we'll see whassup.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g304/Bear_on_a_bicycle/lurker.gif

Hi Tomla.
I am interested in your proposal to get a Hagon 5mm longer than stock. I didn't know Hagon could vary the length of travel or stroke. Have they told you they can?
I had decided that the Versys can take a 5mm longer shock and an increase in the stroke length to give a greater rear wheel travel. There is room on the V for this extra travel and the chain drive will accomodate it ok. When I asked Hagon I understood they couldn't do it.
I dont think the Hagon gives quite as much travel as the stock unit unless you hit a massive bump to compress the rubber end-stop.
Ted99uk.

Still waiting to hear from Hagon, but it shouldn't be a big deal to alter length, unless they just don't want to do it. I've had it done with works performance (yea, I know, the pistons aren't anodized) shocks for a few bucks extra. you may also want to look into an 03 yamaha R1 shock. I'm really intersted in the Fournales. I love the airshock on my mountain bike, so I'm going to try and find out more. Unfortunately, I don't speak French, so when I see "ER6 modele court" listed, I don't know what that means, but I"m guessing it's not "Versys." I also understand they don't have US distributor, so I emailed them (in English, begin holding breath).

Hi Tomla.
I am interested in your proposal to get a Hagon 5mm longer than stock. I didn't know Hagon could vary the length of travel or stroke. Have they told you they can?
I had decided that the Versys can take a 5mm longer shock and an increase in the stroke length to give a greater rear wheel travel. There is room on the V for this extra travel and the chain drive will accomodate it ok. When I asked Hagon I understood they couldn't do it.
I dont think the Hagon gives quite as much travel as the stock unit unless you hit a massive bump to compress the rubber end-stop.
Ted99uk.

Hi Tomla.
I am interested in your proposal to get a Hagon 5mm longer than stock. I didn't know Hagon could vary the length of travel or stroke. Have they told you they can?


Ted, they usually don't. When they say the shock is longer/shorter, it means the body is longer, but the stroke is the same. It's done to raise/lower the bike, not to gain more travel. I have adjustable shocks on some bikes, the more common way to do that is to add a threaded rod at the bottom/top to change the distance between the mounting points. If it's a fixed change, they simply make the body longer/shorter. It's not impossible to make the same body with longer travel, but that usually means more customization, which would make it more expensive than your typical shock.

Gustavo

I have had an extensive email correspondence with Fournales. Initially France and then the helpful UK agent. I came to the conclusion that they offer the one for the er6 which is a different length. They are prepared to offer what I asked for but made it clear they believe my length spec is incorrect and they decline to change or offer service in any way if it doesn't fit or work properly.
I would really like to try one as I believe in the Fournales concept very strongly but at that very high cost I simply can't afford to risk buying it under those terms.

I have sent my forks off to MH Racing in UK who did some very successful fork mods for me on a dirtbike some years ago. They will strip them and advise what they can do to put some proper controllable damping in. Only 1 fork leg has any damping, the other is just an undamped spring. At least this will reduce the modification cost.
I will evaluate the bike when they return to see If I am going to improve or replace the Hagon shock.

I am talking to breakers to see if they have any way I can source a shock off a different bike from the dimensions and not the bike model. Any ideas anyone if you know a bike which has a fully adjustable shock with length between centres of 50mm to 60mm. I have calculated the Versys can take a shock-stroke increased in length from the standard 50mm to 60mm without problems as long as the shock length between centres is increased from the standard 300mm to 306mm. This will push the wheel a bit lower initially and increase the wheel travel from 145mm to 170mm.
I reckon all this plus a softer spring rate will move the Versys nearer to the real dual-sport bike which I am trying to liberate.

Ted99uk

I have sent my forks off to MH Racing in UK who did some very successful fork mods for me on a dirtbike some years ago. They will strip them and advise what they can do to put some proper controllable damping in. Only 1 fork leg has any damping, the other is just an undamped spring. At least this will reduce the modification cost.

Errr, I don't think this is correct. There is damping (both compression and rebound) in both fork legs, it's just that we have adjustment for the rebound damping for the right fork leg. If you are not satisfied with the fork action, both fork legs need to be modified.


I am talking to breakers to see if they have any way I can source a shock off a different bike from the dimensions and not the bike model. Any ideas anyone if you know a bike which has a fully adjustable shock with length between centres of 50mm to 60mm. I have calculated the Versys can take a shock-stroke increased in length from the standard 50mm to 60mm without problems as long as the shock length between centres is increased from the standard 300mm to 306mm. This will push the wheel a bit lower initially and increase the wheel travel from 145mm to 170mm.
I reckon all this plus a softer spring rate will move the Versys nearer to the real dual-sport bike which I am trying to liberate.


I haven't measured my other shocks, but you should be looking not only for a bike that has similar length shock, but also for one that has it mounted in a similar fashion. Any bike that uses a cushion/dog bones to provide mechanical advantage to the rear shock will have a significantly different spring rate than one that acts directly on the swingarm as it does on the Versys, even if the bike is of similar weight.

Good luck,

Gustavo

Before I sent the forks off to be modified I did the crude test of putting the fork upright on the floor and pushing down on the top.
The damped one worked as you would expect slow push down and controlled return on release. It felt good.
The other one showed NO sign of any damping in either direction it just bounced like a spring with a small amount of resistance due to the fork seals.
If there is any damping in there it is absolutely negligible.
We will see what he says after he has stripped them.
Ted99uk.

For some reason, right fork fluid level is 75 mm (+/- 2) from top of outer tube, and takes about 410 mL for a fluid change or 478 mL (+/- 2.5) when dry (+68mm). Left fork fluid level is 65 mm (+/- 2) from top of outer tube, and takes about 415 mL for a fluid change or 487 mL (+/- 2.5) when dry (+72mm)... By the way, spring free length is 292.9 mm with a service length limit of 287 mm. Stock fork fluid: Showa SS-8 or equivalent SAE 10W.

Most aftermarket rear shocks as available from Penske (http://www.penskeshocks.com/motorcycle.html) (USA), Works Performance (http://www.worksperformance.com/html/home.html) (USA), Matris (http://www.matrisdampers.com/) (Italy), etc for Ninja 650R are height adjustable and could likely be adapted to the Versys.

For some reason, right fork fluid level is 75 mm (+/- 2) from top of outer tube, and takes about 410 mL for a fluid change or 478 mL (+/- 2.5) when dry (+68mm). Left fork fluid level is 65 mm (+/- 2) from top of outer tube, and takes about 415 mL for a fluid change or 487 mL (+/- 2.5) when dry (+72mm)...

Don't forget that the right leg has more space filled by the rebound damping adjuster, so that probably makes the level (and corresponding air gap) with all fork components installed equal.

Gustavo

http://hotimg25.fotki.com/a/66_186/75_40/r1.jpg (http://hotimg25.fotki.com/p/a/66_186/75_40/r1.jpg)

Yamaha's R1 rear shock sounds like it could work well on the Versys. It's about 1/2" longer than the Ninja 650R shock, which raises its rear by about an inch.

Here is a pic of Ninja 650R shock besides Versys shock:
http://hotimg23.fotki.com/a/66_186/75_40/shocks.jpg (http://hotimg23.fotki.com/p/a/66_186/75_40/shocks.jpg)

R1 shock installation instructions (for Ninja 650R):
http://www.ninja650.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=11035&highlight=rear+shock
More specs and info:
http://www.ninja650.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=7817&highlight=rear+shock

Thanks Invader. That's brilliant.
I assume the photo of the bike with the reservoir was the R1?
Can you put a rule across the Ninja shock and measure the centers spacing of the mounting holes please. It certainly looks about right.

Ted99uk.

That's a photo of a Ninja 650R with an R1 shock installed. I don't have a Ninja shock on hand to measure it. I'm trying to get someone to give me the exact length of an R1 shock... I expect it to be very nearly as long as the Versys shock.

That's brilliant.


Read both threads carefully. I'm not sure it's that brilliant. As I said above, shocks designed for bikes that have a mechanical linkage will not have the right spring. The R1 spring is rated at about half that of the ninja spring (and probably more than that compared to the Versys). It seems to me like spending money on an R1 shock is a waste of money. It's not a direct fit and at the end of the day you end up with an inadequate shock that still needs to be modified. Unless you get the R1 shock for free (or nearly free) starting with a Wilbers, O'hlins, etc. and asking them to customize it for you will yield better results probably at not a much higher price (if the R1 experiement eventually works, if it doesn't, a Wilbers will end up being much lower priced... ;) ).

Just my $0.02.

Gustavo

According to sonny4472 in the Ninja 650R thread:
"I'm the one with the R1 shock. It's a little soft and about 1/2" too long. For the roads I ride on, my weight and riding style it's almost spot on for me though. I'm pleased with it, VERY pleased. I would like the rear spring to be about 15% stiffer, only because I like the feeling, not because it would be any safer or more proper. I still have 3 or 4 notches of preload left, but my sag is set proper where it's at now. I tend to add a notch when I'm riding hard on smooth roads though. In the hardcore twisties the rear of the bike is extremely well composed, unlike the stock fork setup. The valving is decent for the spring, although I only have 3 clicks left on compression and 5 clicks left on rebound, but hell, I'd rather have it right with no clicks left than OK with plenty of adjustment.
I personally don't recommend it for anyone else, I got lucky. AND... I NEVER ride passengers."

"Alright fellas, I put my factory shock back on for a "test".
Well, it's a compromise with either one. With the factory preload on it's softest setting, I only get 15mm of sag when I'm sitting at the rear of the seat. (I weigh 160lbs) With the R1 shock on the fourth from firmest I had right between 25-30mm.
The factory shock isn't too bad, with it being shorter I actually feel a little closer to the ground and I lean a little harder, UNTIL I hit any kind of bump or uneven surface, then it's a bit of a chatter and bounce affair.
The R1 shock feels too soft when I'm sitting still, if I bounce on it, but it's very well controlled. When I'm heeled over in the corners it feels almost invisible (the best way I can describe it). I only wish it was about 1/2" shorter... I couldn't put the 650R spring on the R1 shock body, machine work or not (My first MOS with the Army is metal worker), it's just entirely too stiff for me, the bike and the damping of the R1 shock internals.
I'll be aiming for a Hagon when I can get the cash together."

Tomla- He did use a 2004 R1 shock that's a tad softer than your mentioned 2003:
'04-06 R1 8.6
'98-01 R1 8.0
'02-03 R1 8.8

At any rate, the R1 shock is in fact relatively lightly dampened for it's softer than Versys' spring. So it may well not be ideal, especially for heavier than 160 lbs riders with luggage/passenger, even with its compression damping adjustment.

I like the sound of an aftermarket shock with height adjustment, besides damping adjustments even though I am pleased enough with the stock rear shock... I wonder about Penske, Works Performance and YSS Racing in terms of price and quality since they are made in the US of A.

contrary to the naysayers, it might be feasible to adapt an R1 or other shock...let's say you pick up a shock on ebay for 100, get new spring for 150 and get it revalved for 200, you've still got a nice shock for under 5 bills....it's only a matter of time before someone comes up with the right bike to swap shocks with, just like it was with the SV 650, etc.

There are many R1 shocks on Ebay, sometimes starting at $15 plus shipping... They do have a nice rust free aluminum body, high and low compression damping adjustments besides rebound, piggy back reservoir and infinitely adjustable preload. Springed and revalved like you say would be well feasable. I'd just like to get the exact length of it, as I suspect it may be a tad shorter.

Hi Invader.
You mentioned a Hagon.
I have one which I sent back because it was still much too firm for me.
They put a softer spring in it and reduced the compression damping. Much better but still far from soft.
I am looking at other shocks and I am very interested in the R1 discussion, so if I do get another shock my Hagon is going to be for sale.
Trouble is I am in UK.
We need to know the shock stroke on the R! shock to ensure it wont hit the rear fender on big bumps.
Ted99uk.

I mailed a guy selling an R1 shock on ebay UK. He says it is approx 305mm mounting centers which I reckon is perfect. It puts the static ride height up a bit. It all depends now on the shock stroke. How do I find that out? Is there a source for this detailed spec?
Ted99uk.

Thanks Gustavo.
I have calculated that to get 170mm wheel-travel I need a shock length of 306mm and a shock-stroke of 60mm. (Standard Versys is 50mm)
The R1 has linkage actuation which will give a longer shock-stroke than would be reqired for direct-acting shock, but as the R1 linkage operates much closer to the swing-arm pivot than the direct-acting Versys I can't see how to work out the R1 shock-stroke. I need to find a reliable specification which states the R1 shock stroke, or some suspension specialist who has measured the stroke.
Mind you, at the very low prices they are going for on Ebay I don't mind taking a chance.
I need to find a breaker who has one and go and look at it.
Ted99uk.

Interesting... So the Versys' shock length is 300 mm. Given enough stroke, can you increase rear suspension travel from 5.7" to 6.7" (170 mm) with a 306 mm shock if the R1's is that long?

go TED 99 UK!!

Yes the extra 5 mm shock length raises the V up at rest and there is enough clearance under the fender to get the extra travel upwards. The clearance on the chain and silencer box is ok as well. I can't "see" any reason why this extra arc of wheel travel should put any undue strain on the drive geometry, particularly as the wheel will only be in these 2 extremes of position for very short times. It remains to be seen if this small increase in wheel travel makes enough improvement to be worth the bother.
Ted9uk

Just found out the R1 shock has 65mm travel.
I will check if that will allow the wheel to hit the fender on full bump. If not I will get one and try it.
Ted99uk.

Actually, two R1 shock sellers tell me it's 11-7/8" (301.625 mm) long, and one says 11-3/4" (298.45 mm) long... Sounds like it may well be the same length as the Versys shock (300 mm or 11-13/16").

I posted this on the other thread, but according to O'hlins, the R1 shock is 300mm and stoke is 65mm.

Gustavo

I have a nice 2003 R1 shock on it on its way, for $24.50 plus shipping...
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7711/r1shockry7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I was considering installing it like on the Ninja with the reservoir on top at the swingarm end. I'd have to trim the back of side panel frame tab and it'll be close to the plastic fuse tray...
I realized that I can install it right side up as it should with the piggyback reservoir on the sprung end (frame), hanging down underneath and still with the adjusters on right side, thanks to the fact that the 2003 shock has an extended longitudinaly mounted reservoir, besides having a slightly stiffer spring! :D I just have to trim a bit of the frame wrapping down around the upper shock mount. There's more than enough room and I can easily reroute the wires and rear brake reservoir hose, and might not have to move the 'bike down' sensor over. :thumb:

Well done Invader, you have obviously got it sussed.
"bike down sensor". I didn't know we had one, must look into that.
Ted99uk

It's actually called a Vehicle-down Sensor, as seen on page 3-59 of the 2007 Versys service manual free download.
It looks like I'll have to perform minor frame surgery to the downtube to clear the shock's compression damping adjusters. I'll have a better idea with shock in hand.

I hope you just mean you cant access them. It is not too difficult to take the shock off to adjust it, but if you have to cut the frame. Not good!
Might be easier to put reservoir on top. The wiring harness there is substantial but if you un-tape it it might be ok to move it over.

I looked up the Vehicle-down sensor. Thanks.
The interesting thing is when I dropped the bike in Slovenia in September I have no recollection of the engine cutting out. I think I would have noticed if I didn't have to switch off, but I can't be sure of that. Maybe it did.
I Will have to check it. I guess just laying the bike right over with engine running should do it. It appears to activate at less than 70 degrees angle.
Ted99uk

I'll get it in right even if it needs a bit of work on the downtube to fit the compression adjusters' bulge. There woudn't be enough room to have it with reservoir on top at frame end, and I'd hate having the adjusters in the back... You can always do it the easy way with a 2004+ R1 shock reversed with the reservoir on top at swingarm end like on the Ninja 650R. My 2003 R1 shock might fit like that as well.

Hi Invader.
Remember that with this R1 shock it has a longer stroke than the versys. It is also longer length so the wheel will start off lower and rise higher than stock.
When I assessed it I thought the reservoir would foul under the fender at the top of its stroke.
I hope it doesn't.
Ted99uk

As mentioned in post #54, and according to Ohlins in Gustavo's post #55, the R1 shock is actually 300 mm (11-13/16") long, just like the Versys... Marks on my Versys shock show that it has a 65 mm stroke, like the R1's.
Although sonny4472 from Ninja 650R forum found his 2004 R1 shock to be a bit soft, he hasn't reported any bottoming out or clearance problems during his extensive testing.

My shock stroke is 50mm. There are some amazing variations here. If yours is 65mm you are getting way more than the standard quoted 145mm wheel travel.
We will no doubt get to the bottom of it all eventually. I reckon this has got something to do with the widely different attitudes on the forum towards the shocks' stiffness.
Can't wait to hear your results.
Ted99uk.

How did you measure and/or calculate your shock stroke to be 50 mm? The well defined marks on my shock from it's plastic cover can't be lying...

It's a bit convoluted Invader. You know I bought a Hagon shock. That states it is 50mm stroke. I talked to the Hagon boss to ask how much the 20mm rubber shock end-stop compresses in a big bump. He confirmed it will compress by 50 percent. The stroke on the Hagon can be seen and measured externally at 60mm less 50% of 20mm rubber bump-stop, which is 50mm actual stroke in a big bump. He confirmed to me that the standard Versys shock is 50mm stroke.
I have done loads of measuring with the bike on the stand and with the standard shock on and off. I measured the position of the swingarm both in its lowest position with the standard shock on and in its upper position after 145mm wheel travel with shock off. This confirmed the 50mm shock stroke gives the specified 145mm wheel travel.
I also calculated that to increase the shock length from 300mm (both Standard and Hagon) to 306mm, will lower the initial wheel position to a safe position where it won't catch the chain on the silencer box, and to increase the shock stroke from 50 to 60 will allow the wheel to rise higher but with enough clearance under the fender and a wheel travel increased to 170mm.
I haven't been able to actually measure the standard shock stroke because unlike yours the cover is loose, you can't see the slider, and it doesn't leave marks where it has travelled to.
Hope this is not confusing.
No point talking any more. You will prove the point shortly. I can't wait.
Ted99uk.

It's a bit convoluted Invader. You know I bought a Hagon shock. That states it is 50mm stroke.

Ted - I thought I had posted this before, but don't see it, only the R1 info. According to O'hlins, the ER6n/f have a 290mm body and a 56mm stroke. It doesn't seem likely that the Versys with it's longer travel has a shorter stroke. Based on the geometry, I think it would have to be about 10mm longer stroke to give the extra 20mm of travel.

Gustavo

I just made a two dimensional model of the rear suspension, and it gives me only 51 mm shock travel for 5.7" vertical wheel travel, 53 mm for 5.9", and 65 mm for 7"... That would make it about 44 mm stroke for the Ninja's 4.9" travel.
Good news is, my professional welder friend will lenghten my R1 shock just under the upper eye mount to account for the extra travel. It'll give me more clearance for the damping adjusters' bulge and reduce the need to make space in the frame downtube.
Now, I just have to decide how much longer I need the shock to be. I might need to add 10 mm, which would give me about 173 mm travel (6.8") and a 1.1" higher rear... How sure are we that the R1 shock has a 65 mm stroke?

We are not sure so let's look at it the other way. On my V I wouldn't want to go longer than 306mm to avoid chain/silencer impact possibilities. Therefore if you make it 306mm and the travel is still too much you could see if there is any way you can reduce the travel with a stop of some sort. I would think however that it is unlikely the R1 shock is longer than 65mm stroke so you shoud be ok, so long as you have prevented the shock itself fouling anything.
The suspense of all this is killing me.
Ted.

Haha! I hope you hang in there till it's done, Ted. I may require more of your insight.
Ok so I'll probably have him add 1/4" (6.35 mm). I'll confirm if the R1 and Versys shock are both exactly the same length (300 mm) first... I should receive it soon.

Inspired by Speedy's lowering kit, I decided to make an adapter out of welded 1/8" stainless steel that will raise the swingarm/shock mount to have the same effect as a longer shock, and give me more clearance for the R1 shock's compression damping adjusters. With the shock mount say 1.5" higher, rear axle is lowered as much as if I'd lenghten the shock by about 1/4". I'd have to back off shock mount bore a tad to lower rear axle by about 0.75", even considering the slight backward angle on top of swingarm's shock mount... It will also increase the shock (and spring) compression - to rear wheel lateral travel ratio and help compensate for the R1 shock's extra travel as well as for its softer spring, by having the shock mount follow a longer arch on its longer radius upon the swingarm pivoting in its travel motion. I can also make it for the R1's M-10 mount bolt instead of M-12.

Hi Invader.
It’s turning into a big job.
I hadn’t read Speedy’s lowering link thread as I don’t need it because I am tall but I have read it now and it is very interesting and a fine piece of work. I see now what you are proposing. Speedy’s comment about the importance of making it in 1 piece are very valid.
Now you have received the R1 shock have you been able to determine what the shock travel is? In view of the work you are going to do I reckon it might be wise to do so before you make all these mods so you know exactly what you need to achieve..
My measurements showed me that the 306mm shock length, (6mm more than standard) lowered the wheel about 10mm, not the 18mm you quoted. This might be critical in preventing the wheel striking the fender on full bump. One of us is wrong so it would be worth checking again.
You are getting all the fun doing it, I am just sat here watching and waiting before I copy you. Best of luck with it.
Ted.

As mentioned in post #54, and according to Ohlins in Gustavo's post #55, the R1 shock is actually 300 mm (11-13/16") long, just like the Versys...
Like I said, I'll confirm this when I get the R1 shock, probably this week. There's of course no need to lenghten shock with an adapter.

When adding 6 mm to a 300 mm shock, rear wheel drops by about 20 mm with suspension extended, and about 19 mm at fully compressed position. Shock compression is in fact about 46 mm for stock 145 mm (5.7") wheel travel, which averages to 3.15 mm wheel travel per 1 mm shock compression. Raising the swingarm's shock mount by 40 mm increases shock travel to about 52 mm (+6 mm or +13 %) for the same wheel travel. With shock mount 40 mm above original mount (following a slight backward downgrade, parallel to top of swingarm's shock mount) and at 3 mm towards the rear, rear axle should be about 19 mm lower, allowing for an extra 6 mm of shock travel for a total of about 58 mm.
No worries, mate. My adapter is already designed in my head, will be compact and easy to produce. I'll then note amount of wheel drop and see if any adjustment is called for.

Shock compression is in fact about 46 mm for stock 145 mm (5.7") wheel travel, which averages to 3.15 mm wheel travel per 1 mm shock compression.

Are you sure about this? Seems like a very high mechanical advantage for a direct acting shock. The ER6 has a 2.2:1 ratio, I'd was expecting the Versys to be in the same range, since the geometry is almost identical.

Gustavo

Yeah, I measured it with a virtual mockup of the suspension. How can the ER6 have a 2.2:1 ratio. It seems impossible. Even considering the supposed 50 mm of shock travel with 145 mm lateral wheel travel for the Versys, ratio is close to 3:1... Clean defined friction marks on my Versys shock cover clearly shows 46 mm of travel, exactly as measured on my mockup. At any rate, with 145 mm of lateral wheel travel, ratio is 3.15:1 with 46 mm shock travel.

I did my measuring with the bike hanging on my stand through the frame center tube, wheel on and the shock off.
I then did a series of measurements of wheel height off the floor against center distance for the shock mounting holes. It was not easy to measure and my accuracy could have been out by a mm or two. I calculated my ideal shock stoke to wheel travel (60mm to 170mm) which is 2.83:1 overall.
From that I now see that my extra 6mm of shock-stroke giving 10mm lower initial wheel position is wrong unless the relationship geometry is very non linear.
I had better get in there and do it again.

I assumed you already had your new shock Invader.
I was thinking.
I have a hydraulic log-splitter with a very long stroke. It wouldn't be very difficult to clamp the shock in it to measure the compressed length. I will have to push it with something compressible though, like a rubber block, as it pushes with several tonnes force.

Ted.

Yeah, good idea... There's a hydraulic log-splitter here too. It should work.
It'd be nice if I could make an adjustable adapter. My first one will be a true one-piece design that will use the stock shock mount bolt and be secured inboard.

R1 shock just came in. It is in fact exactly 300 mm long like the Versys shock. Shock travel reaches the bottom-out pad at only 49 mm! I just realized I could've measured this on the pictures I had a while ago... So it looks like a simple upside down installation like on the Ninja 650R is the way to go, whithout an adapter or any changes. :thumb: The compression damping adjusters' bulge sticks out too much to install shock right-side up anyway.
When checking the Versys shock's travel in the powerful hydraulic log-splitter, it may be hard to determine when you'll reach the bottom-out pad and start compressing it...

By bottom-out pad I assume you mean the end-stop. Thats why I thought something like a hard rubber block so you can see it compressing before the force could damage the shock.
The Hagon shock bottom-out rubber pad is 20mm thick and Hagon say it compresses 50%. Assume yours is something similar.
We are assuming the shock will work ok upside down? We will no doubt find out.
Ted.

Yes, the R1 shock with its seperated oil/nitrogen is supposed to be fine upside-down, as it is on the Ninja... I did mean the end-stop, bottom-out rubber pad.

I have been thinking how to fix the upper end of the shock since the new shock takes a 10mm bolt you said and the existing is 12mm. I reckon if you machine down a 12mm bolt to engage in the threaded end of the frame mounting, inserted through the bike frame tube, the rest of the bolt machined down to 10mm to fit the shock. You then have to weld in a 10mm washer to the frame at the outer end, and put a nut on the outer end of the bolt.
The lower end is not so difficult. Making a sleeve 12mm.od and 10mm.id is probably not a good idea?
What cunning plan have you devised?
Ted.

The R1 shock weighs much less than the Versys shock. I just hope the thinner spring will be stiff enough. Spring is shorter and it does have 9 preload settings...
For the Ninja 650R, he had pressed out the bottom shock bushing and swapped it for the Versys one, and simply drilled out the top sleeve to 12 mm. The R1 shock's bushing bores are the same diameter, but a bit narrower. I'll just drill both R1 sleeves to 12 mm, then I'll be able to shim it out to the right for more reservoir clearance when suspension is compressed, to clear the Versys plastic fuse holder bulge. Also to clear the reservoir, I'll remove the small frame tab for the long black plastic trim which is not needed as it's secured with a screw at the back, close to the rubber push pin in the frame tab. I'm not sure how well a 2004+ R1 shock with laterally mounted reservoir would clear the rear brake reservoir hose on the Versys unless it was also shimmed to the right. I'm glad I got the better looking 2003 R1 shock with 8.8 Kg/mm spring instead of 8.6...

great stuff Invader.
My Hagon shock has a thinner spring diameter, 1.29mm dia cf 1.33mm.
It has 7 coils cf standard 5 coils and it is not too soft.
See photo attached.
Ted.

Rather than all the specualtion - can anyone supply answers to 2 key questions

a) What is the spring rate and pre-load in mm on the factory versys spring?

b) What is the spring rate and pre-load in mm on the R1 spring?

If no one knows - anyone able to measure it?

With this, you'll know what's going on.

Damping is adjustable, and if the adjustment range is too limited, possible re-valveable.

Travel is critical, as is clearance, and these appear to be fine.

Rising rate vs direct linkage is irrelevent unless the shock / spring in the R1 is non-linear (I doubt it).

Paul

Kawasaki won't give out any of that information. I suspect it is only available at the factory. I have asked.
I am looking for softer initial compression damping to give a plusher ride on smooth roads. I suspect the rising rate would help since you start with some leverage which makes the initial spring rate softer and it then gets progressively firmer as you compress the shock and the lingage does its stuff. At least that's how I understand it.
I am happy with the aftermarket Hagon shock in all other types of riding but I just don't like the long hours of continuous "jiggling" even on smooth main roads and motorways ,when I am touring. Hagon say that is because it is a direct acting shock and you cant improve it without a linkage and thus a longer shock travel.
Ted.

Kawasaki won't give out any of that information. I suspect it is only available at the factory. I have asked.
I am looking for softer initial compression damping to give a plusher ride on smooth roads. I suspect the rising rate would help since you start with some leverage which makes the initial spring rate softer and it then gets progressively firmer as you compress the shock and the lingage does its stuff. At least that's how I understand it.
I am happy with the aftermarket Hagon shock in all other types of riding but I just don't like the long hours of continuous "jiggling" even on smooth main roads and motorways ,when I am touring. Hagon say that is because it is a direct acting shock and you cant improve it without a linkage and thus a longer shock travel.
Ted.

The spring rates are easy to measure.
Take spring off shock - measure free length.
Compress it by X with Y weight, and you have the rate in X per Y. Kg/mm, lb/inch etc.

A rising rate linkage is another tool in the suspension kitbag. Variable rate damping with a progressive rate spring would acheive the same thing.
Or better yet, stick with a linear spring. I reckon the problem is the damping.

Paul

Rather than all the specualtion - can anyone supply answers to 2 key questions

a) What is the spring rate and pre-load in mm on the factory versys spring?

b) What is the spring rate and pre-load in mm on the R1 spring?

The Versys spring is ~16 kg/mm. The R1 spring seems to vary between 8.0 to 8.8 kg/mm depending on the model year it corresponds to.

Gustavo

2006+ R1's (16 mm longer swingarm) spring rate is actually higher than what I had seen mentioned in the Ninja 650R forum.

2006 rear suspension specs-
Rear shock absorber assembly travel: 65.0 mm (2.56 in) *End-stop is about 16 mm thick as it bottoms out at 49 mm stroke.
Spring free length: 179.5 mm (7.07 in)
Installed length: 166.5 mm (6.56 in)
Spring rate K1: 93.00 N/mm (531.03 lb/in) (9.48 kgf/mm)
Spring stroke K1: 0.0–65.0 mm (0.00–2.56 in)

2004 R1 shock/spring (as used on Ninja 650R):
Spring rate K1: 83.4 N/mm (476.21 lb/in) (8.50 kgf/mm)

My 2003 R1 shock is supposed to be slightly stiffer than 2004... Looks like I'll get a 2006+ R1 shock instead, and try selling my 2003 R1 shock before I drill its sleeves and cut my frame tab off.

Invader.
The later R1 shocks have the reservoir at right-angles whereas your 2003 shock has it parallel to the shock body. It looked to me from photo's that the right-angle arrangement might be more difficult to fit in to the Versys frame. Not sure how you will check without getting hold of one.
There are so many for sale on Ebay UK at the moment. Real bargains for 2006 and later almost new shocks for low money.
Ted.

Contrary to what I thought, the reservoir would be out to the right with plenty of clearance. It would have to be installed with the damping adjusters on the back, like on the Ninja 650R. It would fit easily and without having to make any more room by cutting the frame tab, etc. It'd be installed as seen on the first pic:
http://hotimg25.fotki.com/a/66_186/75_40/shockinstl.jpg (http://hotimg25.fotki.com/p/a/66_186/75_40/shockinstl.jpg)
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1438/shockgb2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That's good because the latest ones are more muli-adjustable.
Ted.

You might have to cut the plastic trim panel to clear the reservoir at the top of its stroke.

Couple of points if anyone knows answers

a) Can the Versys spring be fitted to the R1 shock? (ID same(ish)?)

b) A custom spring should only be about $200 in Australia - at least that's the case for car springs.

c) Why the hugely different spring rates? The bikes are roughly the same weight, and have the same shock travel. The R1 has less wheel travel then the Versys. This means that with less wheel travel and the same shock travel, the lever can be shorter, less lever = less force = softer spring ok. But there seems to be a huge difference in rate.

Thanx
Paul

The standard Versys spring is just way too hard.
Ted.

The standard Versys spring is just way too hard.
Ted.


I disagree.

The compression damping is way too hard at both ends.

The spring seems ok (ish) - depending on load. I weigh 95kg, add a rack, bag, laptop, lunch, 10kg of clothes / protection, and the spring feels about right.

Possibly a touch soft with pillion + baggage, but can't have everything.

Paul

The softer-than-(Hagon)standard spring on my Hagon shock doesn't bottom out as far as I am aware. I weigh 120kg with all my kit on and bags. I dont know the rates but it is a lot softer than the standard Versys spring. I agree the compression damping is way too hard as well.
Ted.

My Hagon shock has a thinner spring diameter, 1.29mm dia cf 1.33mm.
It has 7 coils cf standard 5 coils and it is not too soft.


Ted, assuming the Hagon spring has the same coil diameter as the OE spring, it works out to 12 kg/mm compared to 16 kg/mm on the original. That's quite a change and you say it doesn't bottom out? Maybe some of us lighter weight types can live with a stock R1 spring. Unfortunately, the R1 shock is still way to much hassle to make it work right. There has to be a better solution... :(

Gustavo

A spring's rate is increased by cutting it shorter, resulting in fewer coils... R1's spring free length: 179.5 mm (7.07 in). Installed length: 166.5 mm (6.56 in). Versys installed spring length: 184 mm (7.25 in.)
2006-07 R1's spring rate is of 93.00 N/mm (531.03 lb/in) (9.48 kgf/mm) compared to the 2004-05's 83.4 N/mm (476.21 lb/in) (8.50 kgf/mm) as was installed on Ninja 650R... I should've got this info before but it'll be an easy fit. I was lucky enough to snatch up a 2006 R1 shock in mint condition with 500 miles on it for $0.99 plus shipping, and the 2003 R1 shock is already being bid on. It even has a silver spring instead as seen in post 89^, so I'll see how it goes... :)

Domingo

Invader.
The Hagon spring is 3mm smaller diameter than stock Versys. 73mm cf. 76mm approx.
I have been re-reading all my notes on this suspension thing including telephone conversations with the boss-man at Hagon who is very helpful.
When I sent my standard Hagon back to be softened off he commented as follows:- Standard Versys is 180KG rate,Standard Hagon
is 160Kg and he suggested for me a 140Kg spring. I assume mine now has the 140Kg spring but I don't know for sure.
I "assume because he didn't say" that was Kg per inch which converts to 7.09, 6.29, 5.51 Kg per mm.
That suggests the R1 spring is not too soft.
He was emphatic that the problem with the Versys and other direct-acting shock bikes is that they work like a twin-shock bike. The absence of a shock-linkage means that as the suspension is compressed, a direct-acting shock gets harder but a linkage-shock softens off. He stated that to fit a multi-adjustable Ohlins shock (quote) " Won't make any significant difference". In his opinion he believes the only possible solution is to get a much longer wheel travel so you can fit a much softer spring.
When I reported back to him after riding the softened off Hagon that it was still very jiggly at slow and steady speed on smooth roads he said:-
"You have got the softest compression valve we do. There is so little compression damping now that the bumps you are feeling are not coming from the damper but from wheel-inertia and weight. A knobbly tyre would be noticeably softer".
A few weeks ago I spoke to another UK suspension specialist and he also said that to fit a fancy Ohlins shock would make no difference. He said they had put Ohlins shocks on their Shock-Testing machine and they could detect no significant difference when they adjusted the high-speed-compression-damping adjuster. He confirmed the Hagon mans opinion that our problem is the direct-acting shock.

My thoughts after all this are a bit mixed but something like this.
My Hagon shock now performs superbly and does most things brilliantly. I no longer get bounced right off the seat and hurt my back on big bumps like I used to on the standard Versys shock. For high speed riding, and cornering on bumpy stuff, it is great. In fact the only real complaint I have is its total lack of "Plushness" when touring at moderate speeds on visually-good tarmac. If the Hagon man is right and the jiggly ride is due to wheel inertia and unsprung-weight, there is very little we can do, and I will just have to get my head round accepting the jiggly ride and enjoy the undoubted benefit of the modified Hagon when riding the bike hard and off-tarmac. I just wish I could get my hands on a shock that has no damping to prove the point that it is not the damping. Certainly when I changed the tyres from standard Dunlops to Bridgestone BT 021 sports-touring tyres (which claim to ride softer) it was better. Has anyone got a knackered shock that could be drained of oil for testing?
Since my bike is fine when I am riding it hard and getting bigger shock-compression, that seems to demonstrate that the shock-linkage-softening-off thing isn't important because even though my shock spring will be firming-up more than it would with a linkage it performs fine for me when it is working hard. So that leaves us with only 4 possibilities for the plush ride thing.
1: It is the weight/inertia. .
2: The compression-damping is still too much in spite of what the Hagon man said.
3: We need to go back to the exercise which got us here, to put a shock in with a longer stroke, so we can increase the wheel travel a lot and use a softer spring. The Hagon man said 10mm extra is no use, it needs a lot more (unspecified).
OR. 4: I am just too bloody fussy.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Have you completely given up with your R1 shock now Invader?

Ted.

i hope the ultimate solution isn't just fitting a softer spring to the stock damper....hey, how about an electronic shock....probably the price of a used V, though. the R1 shock may still work better than the stocker...I'm staying tuned!

Ted, it's obvious you've gone round and round with this shock thing and tried most reasonable options, but... I see no mention of any fork work. What have you done up front? Since the front fork is also fairly stiffly sprung and damped, a lot of what you are feeling could be coming from the front, not just the rear.

Gustavo

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Have you completely given up with your R1 shock now Invader?

Ted.

Because of what you said just now? No, not at all. Did you read my post just before yours (97)? I'm still looking forward to trying out the 2006 R1 shock.
If the Versys shock does have 46 mm stroke like I measured, compared to 49 mm for the R1 shock (2003) to touch the bottom out damper pad, it may actually add near 9 mm of vertical wheel travel, but in compressed position. I'm considering extending the swingarm mount 2 mm by using the R1 shock's 10 mm bolt on moon shaped aluminum shims fitted to the 12 mm bores, to lower rear axle and increase tire to inner fender clearance by about 6 mm.

Hi Invader.
Your posts 96 and 97 seemed a little bit at odds that's why I asked.
I wait with even more interest to see how you get on.
My 2 fork legs have been at MH Racing in UK, since 1st week in January waiting for him to modify them. When he strips them, (he hasn't done Versys forks before,) he will tell me what he can do. The main object is to put some controllable damping in and also if he can source suitable springs, put progressive springs in.
He has done suspension work for me some years ago and last year he did good work on 2 of my friends KTM 950 Adventure's suspension to lower them.
Ted.

My 2 fork legs have been at MH Racing in UK, since 1st week in January waiting for him to modify them. When he strips them, (he hasn't done Versys forks before,) he will tell me what he can do. The main object is to put some controllable damping in and also if he can source suitable springs, put progressive springs in.

Ted, could you please ask him to measure the OE springs and give you the rate? I forgot to measure them when I had them out for the oil change and have yet to find a source that has the info. It seems nobody in the suspension business has ever looked at a set of Versys forks in detail, as all the usual suspects claim to not have any info on the stock Versys setup. It would really help to figure out what to change to in the future.

Gustavo

Hi Invader.
Your posts 96 and 97 seemed a little bit at odds that's why I asked.
I wait with even more interest to see how you get on.


Post 96 was Gustavo's. Mine is 97...

Versys fork spring free length is 292.9 mm, with a service length limit of 287 mm.

Sorry about that Invader, so it was.

I will get the spring info from MH.
Ted

i hope the ultimate solution isn't just fitting a softer spring to the stock damper....hey, how about an electronic shock....probably the price of a used V, though. the R1 shock may still work better than the stocker...I'm staying tuned!

Has anyone tried an air shock?

No-one that I know of.
I made some comments earlier in this thread(I think) about Fournales air-shock.
Ted.

Ted, you said before that your Hagon has combined compression and rebound adjustment, and that you had to put it firmer because rebound was too soft. So you use not the softest compression damping setup of your shock. It gives us a chance that the main issue is in too harsh compression.

I think that the main advantage of a linkage setup to a direct acting one is its progressive characteristic when a rate between wheel and shock traveling is decreased as the shock is being compressed. Am I right on this point?

If so that we need a progressive shock, in ideal case it should have both progressive spring and damping. The OEM one has two stage progressive damping but unfortunately it is too harsh.
Changing only the spring in the OEM shock seems not quite solves the issue (according to Versys_guy's experience). I think spring and damping characteristic have to be balanced.

HyperPro has a shock for the V with a progressive spring, but it has no compression damping adjustment - only rebound. I contacted them and was informed that they can setup softer damper for off-road usage.

Wilbers has a great fully adjustable shock for the V with external reservoir linked with a hose which has both high- and low-speed compression damping adjustments. But this shock is supplied with only linear spring.

I have no information about damping characteristic (linear or progressive) of both of these shocks.

I've decided to change the OEM shock and currently I'm corresponding to Wilbers and I'm almost ready to order their shock. But I have some doubts concerning a linear spring.

Perhaps the HyperPro one with progressive spring will be better without damping adjustment than the Wilbers one with all damping adjustments, but with a linear spring.

So I'm put into a dilemma...
I don’t want to make a mistake which price will be about 650 Euro.
Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Alex

Hi Alex.
It is such a problem to decide. I don't know what to advise you.
My instinct tells me after all this discussion plus my own experience that a progressive spring will be a definite advantage in this "initial" firmness that bothers me. On a Yamaha Superten previously I fitted new fork springs and I didn't use progressive springs I put 2 springs in each fork. 1 short very soft one plus a longer stiff one, end to end. Once I had got it set up which took some time as it required new spacer sleeves for each modification of spring-preload, it was excellent. It changed suddenly from the soft initial spring rate to the stiff rate once the soft spring was "coil-bound" and was no longer springing, but you weren't aware of this sudden change.
I wanted to do this again with the Versys forks but the expert at MH Racing advised that method is old-hat and progressive spring is the way to go now.
I only spent 250 pounds sterling on the Hagon shock which is not exactly what I want, so I know how you must feel spending such a lot on an unknown unit. Would they be prepared to take it back for a pre-agreed fee if you dont like it?
If I haven't answered any part of your questions ask again.
Ted.

Ted,
Thanks for you reply and for understanding of my feelings. Actually it is hard choice...
I didn't asked Wilbers about possibility of taking back the shock, but I'm not sure that it is possible as they produce all shocks only on individual requests. But actually I can ask them:) Also it is more difficult to get any stuff to Ukraine than to EU as well as to take it back.
As I know Wilbers do very high quality things and I'm going to order their top-line model http://www.wilbers.de/2008/englisch/html/wilbers_641.htm . So I expect it should work well, but it is an open question if it will solve the harshness issue...
Initially I thought to replace only the spring in the OEM shock with the progressive HyperPro one. But having read about Versys_guy's experience who had to put back the OEM spring I decided to replace the whole unit.
Actually to make a supposition which modification can solve the issue we need to define the main reason of this initial harshness, either it is more spring or compression damping issue. To answer this question it is interesting to know if the V direct-acting setup has some progressiveness. Ted, when you measured the position of the swingarm with the shock off, did you noticed a difference in a shock mounting point travel for equal wheel travels near its lowest position and near its upper position? If this difference is quite noticeable it proves that the swingarm geometry gives some progressiveness to a rear suspension. In this case I would rather suspect that the harshness is more reasoned by too harsh compression damping.
Sure it would be a great replacement if there is a shock which has a progressive spring and compression damping adjustments, but I didn't find it :mad:
What is concerning the forks you can try the HyperPro progressive springs http://www.hyperpro.com/products/springkits.asp . They have springs for the V shock and forks. Only for the forks it will cost about 140 Euro . As I've read HyperPro has a reputation a "King of springs", so it can be a real improvement of the forks.
Can anybody else give their opinion, please, what is more responsible for the rear shock harshness issue, spring or damping?


Thanks,
Alex

so maybe the wilbers shock with the hyperpro spring, if $ is no object....sigh.

Hi Alex.
I have done so many posts on this subject on the 2 forums that I can't go back and re-read them all before commenting, but I think I have said that the Hagon guy told me that if we were able to increase the shock wheel-travel "substantially", we could have a softer spring which will help with the initial firmness. This is the way progressive linkage shocks on long-travel big-trail-bikes work. That is why I was trying to fit a longer-travel shock like the R1 shock to be able to do this. I have measured that the 145mm wheel-travel can be increased to 170mm without problems with the Versys drive chain.
I havent considered your question about some degree of progressive swingarm travel. I will look again at all my measurements and see if it shows it and let you know. I suspect I will have to measure again to find that.
The Hagon man who clearly knows more than me tells me that my modified Hagon has almost no compression damping, which is contrary to what I feel, but if he is correct then we are flogging a dead horse in all this.That is why I would like to ride it with a completely undamped shock to see what it shows .
It is possible that the Hagon man had identified me as a problem customer and didn't want to do any more mods for me and was telling me that to get me off his back. You never know. He had done the first mods willingly and at no cost so I can't fault him there. That idea is backed up by the fact that I had ordered some progressive front fork springs from him which suddenly became unavailable. They make a full range of progressive fork springs for many bikes and he told me that they are having problems getting progressive fork springs made accurately enough and he said the old way of having 2 separate springs is probably still best.

The amazing thing about all this is that suspension still seems to be a black-art which involves much trial and error. I can't really understand this speaking as an engineer. I would have thought it would all be governed by fairly straightforward engineering principles and once learned shouldn't be hard to apply to any bike. The same story comes from all the suspension experts however so I guess there must be something I am not appreciating (or they all ramp up the mystique to keep their business exclusive and expensive).

The one thing we can be SURE about is we are in a mine-field here, but I am enjoying the challenge and I just wish I was wealthy enough to throw money at the problem.
It is unfortunate that the damping adjusters on most forks and shocks are really just "fine-trimmers" and don't give you a big range from soft to hard without changing the shim-stacks.

Changing track completely I once had a Yamaha Serow trail-bike. The forks were way too soft for my size and weight. On big rock-steps downhill I nearly went over the bars. I drilled the 2 top fork nuts and connected them together with a flexi tube with a presure gauge and a tyre pump blow-up adapter valve.
I experimented with the air pressure in the air-space above the oil in the forks. It was fantastically good and transformed the bike! I had infinitely adjustable spring-rate. Whenever I speak to the guy who bought the bike the first thing he always says is how brilliant the forks are.
I have in mind to play with that on the Versys forks when they come back. It is dead easy to do but you do need a too-soft spring to start with..
That is why I fancied getting a Fournales Air-Shock. How else can you get an adjustable SPRING RATE.
People use this effect to some degree by varying the height of the oil level in the forks and changing the amount of compression in the airspace above the oil as this in effect gives you a Rising-Rate spring with increasing travel.

Ted.

Ted, could you please ask him to measure the OE springs and give you the rate? I forgot to measure them when I had them out for the oil change and have yet to find a source that has the info. It seems nobody in the suspension business has ever looked at a set of Versys forks in detail, as all the usual suspects claim to not have any info on the stock Versys setup. It would really help to figure out what to change to in the future.

Gustavo

Gustavo, I recently did a book calcuation for the V spring rate and came up with around 900 lb/in. The estimate for number of coils is somewhat subjective, but I think I came close. I have a source for a wide range of spring rates and was considering lowering the spring rate, but I too feel that the compression rate in the rear is the real problem, not the spring rate.

Gustavo, I recently did a book calcuation for the V spring rate and came up with around 900 lb/in.

We know that (900 lb/in = 16 kg/mm, it's posted several times earlier in this thread). The question was about the fork springs rate. I was trying to avoid disassembling the fork again...

Gustavo

The Ebay seller for his 2006 R1 shock I won for $0.99 decided to cancel the sale. He was hoping to get more money for his shock, so he pretended having problems with FedEx's shipping rates... This thread inspired me to try it, but has ironically also discouraged me. Like I mentioned at first, I'm actually happy with my rear shock's spring rate and damping for handling local rough roads. I get good support and compliancy when charging into deep sharp dips. It has to hold, and it absorbs and works well at middle preload setting (# 4), which is just enough to prevent bottoming out without a passenger or cargo. So I'm sorry to announce that I'm aborting the R1 shock project.

That's too bad. I was looking forward to you guys finding a nice cheap upgrade.

Thanks for trying Invader.
My Hagon shock is fine apart from the very "jiggly" ride on "smooth" roads which annoys me.
Looks like I am going to have to grin and bare it as well.

Ted.

If you bare it, Ted, we will probably all grin,
but it could also be just too much to bear!

This is a very interesting discussion and I hope
it keeps going. My 'expert' friends keep urging
me to consider getting the bike set up for me
by a 'pro.' This forum is infinitely more fun
(not to mention potentially cheaper...)

If you bare it, Ted, we will probably all grin,
but it could also be just too much to bear!
...we already have one of those...on a bicycle.

:D

But does he get 'jiggly?'
I can bearly wait...

Maybe...



But I'm not sure that's something you'd wanna see..






:eek:

Come on guys, dont give up, get looking for another shock like the R1 but without the built-in reservoir which wont fit the Versys without too many mods.
I have tried to find a bike-breaker who has all his used shocks together and will allow me to search throught them.
No luck so far.
Ted.

I removed the swingarm, and noticed that its long inner bearing sleeve in the three needle bearings was very stiff to rotate, causing it to follow swingarm movement and wear into the mount bolt already at only 2500 miles. I pulled the sleeve out, polished off small scratches on it, cleaned the needle bearings and added some good Amsoil synthetic grease (moly reinforced NLGI#2). Swingarm fits a bit loosely within the frame, so I torqued the mount bolt to 90 ft-lbs instead of 80. It's pivoting nice and smoothly now...

I found out yesterday that Ohlins are bringing out a special shock for the Versys at end April in UK. 485 pounds sterling.
Pity is I have already spent 250 pounds on a special Hagon which is nearly alright so I cant spend another 485 unless someone buys the Hagon. Anyone?
Ted.

Ted, do you know what the fork springs' outer diameter and rate is? I'll be pulling mine out soon and changing fork fluid. I'm just wondering if Progressive Suspension could match me up a pair...
Is your Hagon shock adaptable to the ER6 and Ninja 650R? Can you sell it on Ebay?

Invader.
I got the fork spring rate. 0.9 N/mm.
The free length is 295mm
If he wrote the diameter on the paperwork I will tell you when it arrives. He gave me the above data by phone.
I dont know about the ER6 and Ninja. Didn't previous posts on one of the forums say they were shorter than the Versys? I must read back.
For anyone who doesnt mind the jiggly ride on a smooth road the Hagon is a definite improvement over stock. I will wait till I have ridden it with the modified forks before I decide to get rid of it cos' I dont reckon anyone will pay me much for it. The experts tell me duff forks can make the back feel bad too.
Ted.

Invader.
I got the fork spring rate. 0.9 N/mm.
The free length is 295mm


I agree with the free length, but I am sure it's not 0.9 N/mm. It's not evenly coiled (it's slightly narrower at the top - the last two coils have a narrower diameter, so stiffer in those last coils), but assuming it was, I get ~1.0 kg/mm. I sent it to Rich from Sonic to measure it more accurately so he can add the info on his website. I'll let you guys know what he comes up with.

Gustavo

I'm actually hoping for progressive fork springs that are a bit stiffer, at least when compressed, also to better match the rear. With front preload (ride height) up to maximum setting, it still bottoms out a bit in big bumps, and dive is considerable under braking. I weight 190 lbs...

With front preload (ride height) up to maximum setting, it still bottoms out a bit in big bumps, and dive is considerable under braking. I weight 190 lbs...

Do you have a zip-tie on the fork legs that ends up on the bottom of the slider or is this a feeling of bottoming out?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2266/2460130079_61e7974922_o.jpg

Mine used to feel like bottoming out too, but that was just the harshness in the suspension as a result of the stiff spring and aggressive compression damping. I put that zip-tie in and found out I was only using only 2/3 of the available travel on the worst bumps Oregon and Washington can dish at you and less than 1/2 the travel most of the time.

The only way to reduce dive is to get a shorter suspension (or a telelever setup). If you have the travel, the bike will use it under braking as the weight transfers to the front.

Gustavo

Do you have a zip-tie on the fork legs that ends up on the bottom of the slider or is this a feeling of bottoming out?

The only way to reduce dive is to get a shorter suspension (or a telelever setup).

The old zip tie trick; very good. I'll do that.

What's a telelever setup? Is that anything
like the Earle's front ends on the old Beemers?
That feeling was so cool; I hated it when they
went telescopic.

http://www.beemergarage.com/documents/59r60.pdf

Plus since my name is Earl I really loved explaining
the R60 front end...

Hi Gustavo.
That lends weight to my suggestion posted a long time ago that there might be variations in the springs and suspension for different countries Versys's. Maybe the suspension parts are sourced from different suppliers. If MH Racing say the spring is
.9N/mm I dont think he would have guessed it as he is a highly respected suspension expert. His comment to me on the phone was that is a pretty stiff spring and he didn't think I needed a stiffer one. I must work out the conversion from N/mm to Kg/mm.
Ted.

Of course, front end dive under braking is caused by weight transfer, and at a higher rate with longer travel suspension. I'm used to nearly twice as much suspension travel... Front end dive upon braking on my Versys is in fact excessive, and forks do bottom out easily enough at full 6.1" travel from being undersprung (too soft). My 1990 ZX6 was even worse, and stiffer Progressive Suspension fork springs were just excellent. I'll pull them out this week and try to measure their rate.

Of course, front end dive under braking is caused by weight transfer, and at a higher rate with longer travel suspension. Front end dive upon braking on my Versys is in fact excessive,

My opinion would be that front end dive is caused by cheap
(telescopic front forks) suspension. The Earle's front ends
on the above referenced Beemers did NOT dive under heavy
braking. (I believe some of the even earlier Aerials had it too)

We're putting bandaids on compound fractures here...

The old zip tie trick; very good. I'll do that.

What's a telelever setup?

Telelever suspension is a development of that Earle suspension idea, not the same, just same concept:

http://micapeak.com/bmw/gs/images/telelevr.gif

http://micapeak.com/bmw/gs/images/telepara.jpg

Currently used on all "big" BMWs (except racing bikes, IIRC). The design is capable of giving zero dive, but due the "weirdness" of that riding experience, some dive was built in.

Gustavo

That lends weight to my suggestion posted a long time ago that there might be variations in the springs and suspension for different countries Versys's. Maybe the suspension parts are sourced from different suppliers.


It could be possible that bikes are spec'ed differently for different markets, but I doubt it's the case with the Versys as all the part numbers seem to be the same.


If MH Racing say the spring is .9N/mm I dont think he would have guessed it as he is a highly respected suspension expert. His comment to me on the phone was that is a pretty stiff spring and he didn't think I needed a stiffer one. I must work out the conversion from N/mm to Kg/mm.


Maybe you heard wrong. A Newton is a unit of force, a kg is a unit of mass.

Newton = kg * 9.81 m/s^2

If you take the figure MH racing gave you and divide it by 9.81 you'll get 0.092 kg/mm. A spring of this rate is not strong enough to support the front of the bike by itself, let alone with a rider on board.

Gustavo

Thanks Gustavo.
The forks should be here today so I will report back what he wrote in there for me. I was surprised when he said Newtons so I asked him to repeat it.
I am a bit deaf, too many noisy ships engine-rooms in my youth.
It could be possible that there is a scatter of spring rates if they come from different suppliers even if not specified differently. The Hagon-Suspension boss told me they have difficulties getting accurate spring rates from their spring suppliers. One would hope Kawasaki would test them but clearly the Versys suspension is a major cost-saving item.
Ted.

My opinion would be that front end dive is caused by cheap
(telescopic front forks) suspension. The Earle's front ends
on the above referenced Beemers did NOT dive under heavy
braking. (I believe some of the even earlier Aerials had it too)

We're putting bandaids on compound fractures here...

Earle's front ends are of a different design with the advantage of having less nose dive under braking... All I want is the proper fork spring rate that will offer adequate support (a bit stiffer) like I get from the rear, and preferably more progressive. Front support is now marginal at maximum preload setting.
I'll be looking into the proper way to measure my stock fork springs rate. Any tips?

I have never tried but if you put it in a loose-fitting tube to keep it upright and put say a bit of round wood in to press on the top of the spring. you could then load it up with a known weight and measure the deflection marked on the wood.
Ted.

I like that method, Ted :thumb:... I can also push down on it with a scale under a scissor jack, and measure deflection at different given weight loads, or see how much weight is needed for a certain amount of deflection.
Versys_guy got the HyperPro progressive fork springs, but has sold his Versys... I know Hagon also makes them for the Versys, but Progressive Suspension (USA) may have a set that would work.

I ordered a set of progressive versys fork springs from Hagon last August. They eventually decined to supply me saying they were having problems with supplier. Or it could have been as I said before they didn't want to supply me because I had already complained about their standard Versys shock. Can't blame them really. Ask them.
Ted.

Fork springs were very easy to release without a vise or any help, with Traxxion Dynamics' spring compressor and retainer clip. I also got the rod puller to get all the fluid out and to help with reassembly...
Spring outer diameter is 36 mm, and free length: left 301 mm/right 300 mm. (Versys repair manual states 292.9 mm, with a service length limit of 287 mm...??) So far, I know it takes 62 lbs (28 kg) to compress it 40 mm. All coils are evenly spaced, unlike a progressive spring. Suspension fluid looks and smells much like ATF...
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/8100/fork002.jpg (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fork002.jpg)

Steering head bearings were originally greased well enough, by the way (2600 miles on Versys):
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7192/head003f.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=head003f.jpg)

(With a smile on his face) Invader; Is your bike being
supported by that yellow twine??? Ha ha, post pics
of the new springs too, maybe a side-by-side shot
so people can see the difference. Assume there is
a specified measurement for oil level? You're gonna
love the progressives; can't wait to do this on my
Versys. A good friend suggested lowering the front
forks a quarter inch at a time as it quickens the steering.
I'll probably wait until after installing new springs to
establish a 'base line'. Thanks for the pics.

Hi Invader.
My springs are 0.9 Kg / mm not 0.9N/mm as previously stated. Sorry.
Comparing mine with yours:-
Your spring rate is 28 divided by 40 = 0.7Kg/mm
Mine is 0.9Kg/mm
Therefore my spring is 29 percent stiffer than yours. Even allowing for measuring errors that is a very big difference which suggests that is not a manufacturing error but a specification difference.
The free-length of the 2 springs is pretty similar.
I haven't got an outside diameter measurement of mine.
Do you have the spring rate range of the progressive spring you are going to fit?
Ted.

I've given Progressive Suspension as much info as possible, and am waiting to see which existing springs they have that could work...

I got Progressive Suspension's springs specs, but they're all too long... There's also their rear shocks/springs specs.
I could still get a set of Hyperpro progressive fork springs (SP-KA06-SSA018) from http://www.wilbersusa.com/hyperpro-springs.htm
http://www.hyperpro.com/PDF/springs%20okt%202008.pdf

Hi Invader.
I have looked through those 2 links. As you say Progressive dont have a spring anywhere near.
Hyperpro offer a spring kit but don't say what its rates are. Have you found out?
What are you going for, my 0.9Kg/mm or your 0.7Kg/mm as a starting point?
Difficult isn't it?
I wont be riding mine to report back to you for a couple of weeks I guess before all the work is finished.
Ted.

Spring outer diameter is 36 mm, and free length: left 301 mm/right 300 mm. (Versys repair manual states 292.9 mm, with a service length limit of 287 mm...??)

Did you measure the wire diameter? I measured mine again, mostly it seems to be 5mm, but I get a bit of variation, towards the bottom it seems to read 5.1mm and the top coil is closer to 4.9mm than 5mm. Using the 5mm, the spring rate is 1.0 kg/mm. Using 5.1mm the rate is 1.1 kg/mm. As you can see, a small difference in wire diameter makes a huge on the spring rate.

The top coils on my spring have a smaller outer diameter (seems to fit what the manual says), I think reading your post you say there were no smaller coils on yours?

Free length on mine was 299mm and 300mm.

Gustavo

Hi Guys,

Sorry for keeping silence - I was reading the thread but had no time to write.

Eventually I decided to order the high technology Black Line Wilbers rear shock with external reservoir connected with a hose and with low and high speed compression damping adjusters. I decided to trust Wilber's reputation - they confirmed me that they had the Versys in their workshop, measured and tested it and developed the shock which even with a linear spring gives an excellent comfort and stability. I wish I could prove it soon on my own experience.
I appreciate the fact it has separate high and low speed compression damping valves system. I like such a schema because, as I suppose, in a standard shock the same valve processes all deviations and damping force in the same time can be too weak for slow deviations (like braking) and too strong for fast ones (like bumps).
If it won't give enough plushness on smooth roads I will be able to replace its spring with Hyperpro progressive one. But at least, I hope, it should be much better than the OEM shock on rough roads.
I made my order and paid in advance on March 3rd. They produced the shock individually for my data (my weight as well as passenger and luggage, % of time with luggage and passenger, riding style and personal preferences) and it was ready in a week on March 10th. They sent it locally to my friend's German friend who already picked it up yesterday. Next Sunday my friend should bring it to me. So I can send some picks when I get it.

I don't quite agree that Versys's short traveling 145mm is the reason not to have a comfortable suspension. I used to ride Honda CBF250 which had only 100mm rear wheel traveling and it was VERY comfortable on smooth and also on rough roads (a lot of plushness) and it was quite stable unless you met really big bump. But it had a monoshock with a linkage which made its characteristics progressive. Versys's setup also has some progressiveness but not so much as with a linkage - I think it is a compromise between twin shock setup and monoshock with a linkage. Ted, have you measured the difference in wheel/shock traveling rate in top and bottom rear wheel positions? I tried to assess it and found out that this difference is not very noticeable - quite close to a linear setup.
So if softer shock spring and softer compression damping don't solve the harshness issue it is either possible to replace the linear spring to progressive one or to replace the shock with the one which has longer traveling and softer spring. But I think the first way is easier and cheaper.

Ted, regarding forks, it is really interesting your experience with "air forks". Actually it gives a possibility to adjust forks springs rate widely. But if you find springs with correct rate the result will be mostly the same (excluding a possibility to adjust rate on the fly). So the question is to find right springs. Wilbers also has progressive springs which are like to two springs setup as you manually made from two different springs on your old bike: http://www.wilbers.de/2008/englisch/html/wilbers_gabelfedern_progressiv.htm . They have a model for the Versys (part num. 600-342-00) and it costs EUR 99 with oil. They informed me that they have many different spring rates so I think they can find a correct spring for your data. Wilbers quality has to be great. They also used to sell Hyperpro springs but they don't sell them any more. On my question "why, is it a matter of quality?" they replied: "No, the quality isn´t the reason. We sold Hyperpro for many years and we wouldn´t have sold it if the quality was bad. But we made the experience that we sold much more of Wilbers springs for the bikes, because our springs have much more comfort and also the necessary stability. It is not a question of quality but a question of setting like spring rate etc."
From my experience they are friendly and helpful (actually I had a long correspondence and discussed with them a lot of questions, like technical ones, payment, tax, customs, shipping...) and they reply quite quickly. So you can ask them for progressive forks springs which will be fit for your data. Just write them to info@wilbers.de .

Guys thanks for all of the info I have learned a lot with this thread. I have a couple of questions has anyone tried Speedy's lowering block with a longer travel shock to bring it back to normal ride height? How would this affect the rear shock progression?

Did you measure the wire diameter? I measured mine again, mostly it seems to be 5mm, but I get a bit of variation, towards the bottom it seems to read 5.1mm and the top coil is closer to 4.9mm than 5mm. Using the 5mm, the spring rate is 1.0 kg/mm. Using 5.1mm the rate is 1.1 kg/mm. As you can see, a small difference in wire diameter makes a huge on the spring rate.

The top coils on my spring have a smaller outer diameter (seems to fit what the manual says), I think reading your post you say there were no smaller coils on yours?

Free length on mine was 299mm and 300mm.

Gustavo

Mine are the same... What makes you think the rate 1.0 and 1.1 kg/mm?

Ted- I inquired about the rate with Hyperpro... Waiting for reply.

Mine are the same... What makes you think the rate 1.0 and 1.1 kg/mm?

I calculated it using the (different) spring dimensions.

spring rate = [modulus of spring steel * (wire diameter)^4] / [8 *number of active coils * (mean coil diameter)^3]

Where:
- Modulus of spring steel is typically about 78,500 N/mm^2.
- Wire diameter is what you measure (~5 mm in our case).
- Number of active coils = total coils -2.
- Mean coil diameter = coil diameter - wire diameter (or 2*radius).

Using:
Wire diameter = 5 mm
Coil diameter = 36mm (mean coil diameter = 31mm)
Number of active coils = 21

Spring rate = 0.99 kg/mm

If you use 5.1mm for wire diameter, then the mean coil diameter gets a little smaller and the rate is 1.09 kg/mm.

Gustavo

I got the bike back together enough to ride it up the drive and back. 200 yards and quite bumpy in places. Only 2nd gear and not more than 20mph but it is definitely softer. It felt very nice. I will tell you more when I have ridden it on the roads at speed to see if the handling is spoiled. It won't be road-registered till 1st April though.
Ted.

Ted- Are you trying out your redone forks? The progressive springs and damping feel initially softer at the top of their stroke?

All I got from Klaus Huenecke so far is:
"The Hyperpro springs are rising rate = true progressive. You cannot compare that with the stock rate really, because they start out as the stock springs on a comfortable level, but then increase the more you compress them. This is to avoid deep diving under braking etc. They will give you excellent feedback and road holding, and with the sag set correctly, will not top out either under acceleration. The price is $ 139.00 for the pair and it includes the oil."

So I asked him again for more specifics...

Hi Invader.
Yes, sorry, I was trying out the modified standard forks with standard spring, with the reduced compression damping and increased rebound, plus new seals and good quality oil. The softer (modified from Hagon standard Versys) Hagon shock on the back.
It sounds as if Klaus is saying the soft end of the progressive spring is the same as standard but we have reason to ask which standard is he using. $139 is a bit pricey but I guess that is my new perception with the low pound sterling rate.

Ted.

Alex. Re. your post of the 15th.
I had another go yesterday to measure the shock stroke to wheel travel as you requested to see if there is any progressive action in the geometry.
I have not got a good enough method of measuring the shock stroke because I am trying to measure the centres distance between the 2 mounting bolts. I havent got anything long enough to put against the insideside of the 2 bolts to get an accurate spacing. Hope that's clear? So I dont know.
There has got to be a progressive variation but whether it goes up or down I dont know.
I honestly doubt it is enough to be significant.
The other point re. the air-forks. There is another difference than the obvious one of varying the spring rate. The air pressurised in the space above the oil is compressed as you compress the forks so there is a definite rising rate effect when combined with the springs fixed rate. As you approach bottoming the rate gets very high and can prevent bottoming if the initial pressure is high enough. I found with the Serow, landing down off a big rock step, before the mods I almost went over the bars and it felt horrible. After the mod is felt rock solid and so confidence inspiring. It transformed the feel of the bike on snotty trails.
Ted.

Speedy's lowering kit results in a higher shock to swingarm mount. This increases shock travel to wheel travel ratio as it pivots up on a longer radius on the tilting swingarm. It would make it a tad stiffer, and also helps prevent tire from hitting up in the fender with the lowered height.
I'll see if Klaus Huenecke can give me some numbers, but I would expect the Hyperpro springs to have about the same rate as stock on top of stroke, then progressively stiffer as it compresses. It probably also has a shorter free length, which won't raise the ride height and/or make it more prone to topping out... I'll just switch to my Amsoil Shock Therapy synthetic light (#5) suspension fluid in the forks to use it up with the stock springs, then get the Hyperpro springs for next year with Amsoil #10 weight synthetic fluid when the Canadian dollar picks back up. Fork air pressure assist like I had on 1982 KDX 250 and 1983 GPz550 may be nice, but would probably raise the ride height too much.
The taller 150/70 TrailAttack rear should ride a bit softer, and I'll have done enough for now with new tires, chain, sprockets, custom muffler, detail work, etc.

Response from Hyperpro's Klaus Huenecke:

"Yes, it would be a rate of 0.7 Kg/mm. (stock spring's 28 kg to compress down by 40 mm) The Hyperpro spring has been designed to give you a comfortable ride when going solo, to prevent deep diving under heavy braking, to give you good feedback from the road, and to provide enough reserve that when you add luggage or a passenger. The Hyperpro free length is 295 mm and the rate is 7.5 N/mm (0.765 kg/mm) to 12.05 N/mm (1.229 kg/mm). They come with the recommended oil and settings for pre-load and rebound damping."

(N/mm divided by 9.807 = kg/mm)

Conversions: http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/airedale-springs/die-springs/56650-73184-_5.html

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned
that dropping the rear more than the front
changes the rake and makes the steering
less responsive. My intention is to lower
the front in 1/4" increments to experiment
with making the steering quicker, not more
sluggish.

[QUOTE=invader;29352]Response from Hyperpro's Klaus Huenecke:

"Yes, it would be a rate of 0.7 Kg/mm. (stock spring's 28 kg to compress down by 40 mm) The Hyperpro spring has been designed to give you a comfortable ride when going solo, to prevent deep diving under heavy braking, to give you good feedback from the road, and to provide enough reserve that when you add luggage or a passenger. The Hyperpro free length is 295 mm and the rate is 7.5 N/mm (0.765 kg/mm) to 12.05 N/mm (1.229 kg/mm). They come with the recommended oil and settings for pre-load and rebound damping."

0.7kg sounds good as a start-rate considering mine is 0.9kg. The final rate of 1.229 is pretty stiff. I wonder what percent of the end of the travel you get that rate on. Is it progressive along all its length or does it go to a stiff rate after a set length of being progressive?
I wait your report with interest.
Ted.

Hi Guys,

Sorry for keeping silence - I was reading the thread but had no time to write.

Eventually I decided to order the high technology Black Line Wilbers rear shock with external reservoir ....

Any News? I am really interested to know how the shock performs.

Any News? I am really interested to know how the shock performs.

Sorry again, busy time :) I will pick the shock up at my friend tomorrow and perhaps install it this weekend. I will give all the information when it is ready and I test it.

I wait your report with interest.

Like I mentioned, I might get the Hyperpro progressive fork springs just next year. I decided to switch to Motul Fork Oil Expert (http://www.motul.com.au/product_line_up/fork_brake_others/images/PDF/FORKOIL_EXPERT_BLEND_CHART.pdf) semi-synthetic SAE 15 fork oil with the stock springs for now to firm it up a bit. I was already at only 1/2 turn out on rebound damping with original 10 weight fluid at maximum stock spring preload... SAE 15 fork oil is included with the Hyperpro springs, or I can have just the springs shipped on their own for $15 less.

To anyone in thsio thread...

I have not digested all the info here, but I wanted to put somethign out there for consideration...

I have a stock rear shock from a 2007 Aprilia Tuono lying around in the garage. It does not have an external reservoir so it will fit the Versys from that perspective. Visually, it looks to be pretty similar in dimensions, but I did not measure, etc. I have no use for the shock and will gladly ship it to anyone free of charge if they want to experiment and post results here.

If the shock would possibly work, I know where to get metric boatloads of them almost free. Almost every rider who buys a new Tuono or RSV puts on an aftermarket shock. Just an idea. If anyone wants to play with it, just send me a PM.

If anyone wants specs for the shock, they can either call AF1 Racing in New Braunfels, TX, or look on af1racing.com.

Thanks,
G

Just out of curiosity, where are you located?

According to a spec I found it has a 133mm shock stroke and it is an Ohlins. link:-http://www.motorcycle.com/specs/aprilia/sport/2008/tuono/1000-r-factory/detail.html

Why are you guys taking-off an Ohlins? What are you putting on?
I am in UK so I can't try it.
Ted.

I am in Houston. Invader asked for the shock, so I am sending it to Canada this week.

The 2007 Tuono R did not have an Ohlins on it. The shock in question was removed to make room for an Ohlins. The 1000R and the 1000 Factory are not the same bike. Primary difference is the Ohlins suspension and the forged Aluminum wheels. Other than that they are the same though.

According to a spec I found it has a 133mm shock stroke and it is an Ohlins. link:-http://www.motorcycle.com/specs/aprilia/sport/2008/tuono/1000-r-factory/detail.html

Ted.

That's 133 mm of lateral wheel travel... An aftermarket shock for the Tuono 1000R is said to have 64 mm stroke, but by seeing pics of it, the bottom out damper pad's thickness reduces it to maybe about 46 mm like the Versys and R1. Tuono shock is 10 mm longer overall than the Versys shock, but I'll see what I can do. It is unused and should be on its way here on Friday... Thanks again, gahboo. :thumb:

Hi Invader.
I wont be riding mine to report back to you for a couple of weeks I guess before all the work is finished.
Ted.

Hi Guys.
I just got back after over 200 miles of blatting around North Wales on bone-dry and EMPTY roads with not one police car seen all day.
I have now fully tested my re-damped forks and Hagonshock.
I took it on the best fast-sweepers I know, bumpy as hell little roads and about 10 miles of rocky deeply-potholed dry trails.
What a transformation. This was by far the best and most enjoyable ride I have done on the bike. Sensational.
It is not soft. In fact it is still quite hard as you feel every bump ridge and ripple. However you feel them in a quite different way, they no longer crash and jar and I was never kicked out of the seat. The feel now is sort of soft-edged. Each bump now starts with a progressive lift not a jerk. Not sure that I could call it "plush" but it is almost so.
I reckon if the damping was softened any more it would spoil it.
On the rocky trails, at slow speeds is is very bumpy but as you speed right up it all smoothes out just like a proper dirt bike. Amazing.
My suspension Guru has got it spot-on I reckon.
The way it handles now on really fast sweepers, dead stable and rock-solid, and on bendy-marathon back roads, again rock-solid, is for me at any rate a real revelation. I never dreamed I could get the Versys to go like this.
Added to which I hadn't revved it above 7500 before I took it off the road for the winter and now I have put Mobil 1 fully synthetic in and as the running-in is finished I could use the power for my first time. What a bike!
Ted.

:clap: :cheers: :thumb:
Sounds like you're riding on cloud 9 now. It's good to bring out the best of a remarkably capable machine... What mileage are you at, Ted? It does scream up to redline pretty good. I was already there at 60 miles.

Ted - glad to read the fork makeover was successful. BTW, what shock are you using now? It seems as if the problems you were complaining about with respect to the rear shock have either gone away or you were so ecstatic about the front that you forgot to mention that in the test ride report... ;)

Gustavo

I meant to mention it Gustavo.
The rear is remarkably "better" as my suspension man Mark said it might be. The rear feels a BIT harder than the front but I no longer trust my perceptions.
The rear is the special "softer" Hagon but it is still set to where it was before which is fairly near the stiff end on the adjuster. I will be slowly reducing that to see if I can get a setting where both ends seem in balance.
I reckon it is possible that a progressive spring, as long as it is carefully chosen, could improve it still further to get that 1st stage a bit softer. It will be important not to spoil the present set-up in the 20 to 100% of the travel that is now so good. I still lean towards the set-up I talked about previously of 2 separate springs in each fork which I had on my previous bike. That way I could have just the first part of the active stroke (after the sag position) soft, to smooth the cruising-ride, but then switch abruptly to what I have now as soon as the soft short spring becomes coil-bound. Mark tells me that is old-hat and who am I to disagree with him.
I suspect that I will probably do no more to it now except adjustment of the shock.
About the running-in Invader. I am an engineer of the old school and I totally believe in carefull lengthy running in. The way the bike ran today, smooth as silk and vibration-free, proved my theory once again. It feels quite superb and so does the gearbox and gear-change.
Ted.

I forgot to answer, the bike has done nearly 5000 miles.
The cost of my mods was, in UK:-
Hagon shock 250 pounds.
Fork revalving, including overhaul and seals change. 275 pounds.
I saved much more than that when I bought the Versys new at a massive discount from the full price.
Ted.

Weight is obviously more critical than I thought. I went out yesterday without my 11 Kg bag on the back and the rear felt too hard and crashy again.
At least when I am touring with the 2 bags on, it will probably be perfect.
Ted.

Glad you're happy, Ted. It can be such a crapshoot being an early adopter. Invader, got my fingers crossed on the Aprilia shock. If anyone can suss it out, it's probably you.

I was considering Hyperpro's (Dutch) 0.765 to 1.229 kg/mm progressive springs (295 mm free length), but I may try Progressive Suspension (USA) #11-1521: 0.71 to 1.16 kg/mm, 340 mm free length, 37 mm OD progressive springs (available for under $90 USD) by shortening the spacers like Gustavo did to install his Sonic springs. Stocks are 36 mm OD (300 mm free length) but the fork bore is 40 mm ID... I just switched to Motul synthesis SAE 15 fork oil for now.
When reassembling my forks, I had to back off fork cap from screwed all the way in by almost 3 turns (10.5 turns screwed in on the rod) to give rebound damping adjuster 3 turns of adjustment range, so I also screwed in left fork's cap in by 10.5 turns before tightening its lock nut. Extended fork length is affected, so they should both be set equally.

Attaboy Invader.
I am damn glad my forks are sorted.
The sad thing is it presumably wouldn't have cost Kawasaki anything to have put the damping shim stacks in that I have now got and that work so much better.
I haven't asked MH Suspension if he could post a shim kit for you to fit. Worth a thought if it doesn't involve machining or other mods. I guess he wouldn't do it for a UK owner but he might for shipping to USA.
Ted.

Hi Invader.
Any progress on the Aprilia shock?
Ted.

No, it's on it's way here... I'm not sure if I'll be able to shorten it from 310 mm to 300 mm, if it has enough stroke, if I can enlarge mount bores and fit it, and if spring/damping is too soft.

If you look back I measured it would be ok at 304mm and I allowed a bit of slack so MAYBE 310 will fit but I think it might be long. Worth a try though. The only problem will be catching the exhaust I think but I reckoned there was good clearance at 304mm.
Ted.

Thank Ted... Unfortunately, the Aprilia shock won't be fitted to the V. By risking cutting the upper mount and rewelding it closer on the pressurized shock body to shorten it a few milimeters, I'd then have upper mount clearance problems.
I'm still satisfied with the stock shock though, and it should ride a bit better with the taller 150/70 rear tire, and now that I freed up the swingarm's needle bearing inner bushing which was nearly impossible to rotate by hand, and was actually restricting pivoting movement and causing it to wear in on the mount bolt and within the frame by pivoting with the swingarm's movement. The inner bushing can be easily checked with swingarm removed, pulled out, cleaned and greased. It's worth looking into...

Thank Ted...I'm still satisfied with the stock shock though, and it should ride a bit better with the taller 150/70 rear tire, ...
When I fitted these tyres, which are advertised as "soft-riding" they definitely were softer than the stock Dunlops. I like them and will probably use them again.
Ted.

Has anyone actually just replaced their springs with HyperPro springs? I am curious if the progressive springs handle the small road bumps any better without making the front end too soft.

Only versys_guy did get the set, but has sold his Versys. His last post was made on December 31st... He did mention that the rear felt good initially but was too stiff when compressed, so he removed it and went back with the stock and put up the Hyperpro rear for sale. He was just waiting to make tools to do the fork springs.
I wonder if the next generation Versys will have a multi-link progressive rear suspension...

I wonder if the next generation Versys will have a multi-link progressive rear suspension...
That's a big change, I doubt it somehow.
Is there any bike with a linkless rear like ours that has test reported a good suspension quality? I "think" I have read somewhere that at least one has.
Hopefully someone will be prepared to buy one of the new (expensive) Ohlins Versys shocks when it comes out, and prove the point if it can be sorted.
I am still adjusting my Hagon shock to get the best match to the re-valved forks. Apart from seriously bumpy tarmac, of which there is a lot round here in northen England and North Wales, it is now probably about as good as I am going to get, and way better than stock. Even on really badly bumpy bends when I am feeling each bump quite hard, it does not bounce the bike off its line or kick me off the seat like it did originally. I think it would spoil the present excellent handling if I softened it much more.
I am coming round to the realisation that maybe the Hagon boss was right when he said the direct-acting-design of shock is the problem not poor damping or springs.
It is a damn shame Invader that you haven't had more reward from all the work you have done on this. I have now got a bike I will probably stick with for a long time even though it is not perfect, whereas I couldn't have lived with it at all in stock trim.
Ted.

I'm glad I still like the stocker for our heavy duty conditions. I'll see how much better it feels now... Did you get a chance to check the swingarm's inner bearing bushing to see if it's rotating freely, or nearly seized in the needle bearings, wearing in on the mount bolt and within the frame? It's supposed to stay put with the mount bolt in the frame, with the needle bearings rotating around it with the swingarm. I smoothed down the bushing with wet 1500 grit silicon-carbide waterproof sandpaper, then polishing compound. Cleaned off bearings and added synthetic grease. The bushing fits a bit loosely within the frame which has to be torqued down on it, so I secured it at 90 ft-lbs instead of 80. It's swinging good and freely now, and should react more readily to small bumps and sudden or harsh impacts. You just need to remove shock and swingarm bolt, then pull bushing out of the right side, without removing the chain in the swingarm. It's just a bit harder to jack up the rear without a centre stand... I also disposed of the lower shock mount needle bearing's soft plastic cage, and synthetic greased it.
Going into finer details- Now back to a 15T C/S sprocket from a 16T, with smaller rear 45T sprocket and still with 114 link chain, my rear axle is a bit further back, resulting in more leverage and lateral wheel travel to shock travel ratio for easier compression. You mentioned that less unsprung weight helps; My new ROC rear sprocket is thinner at the core where it bolts up to the wheel, and I cut the then more protruding studs down flush with the nuts. My new DID 520 VM chain is also lighter than stock, and the slightly heavier 150/70 Trail Attack did need only 7 grams instead of 30 to balance it. :rolleyes:

Thanks for that info. I certainly will check my swingarm.
When I was doing all the shock work I was rotating the swingarm with and without a wheel in and it certainly did not feel tight but I wasn't looking for it.
Report on the Trail-Attack when you have some miles on them.
Ted.

It wasn't obvious for me either when moving the swingarm before. Evidence is in the wear on the swingarm mount bolt from the nearly seized-in needle bearing inner bushing.
I was getting some strange feedback from the rear on deeper sturdy bumps last year, and it all made sense when I took it apart. Looking forward to trying it out, soon...

So Motul's semi-synthetic 15W fork fluid (from stock 10W) works quite well with preload reduced by 3 turns from maximum setting and rebound damping at 7/8 turn out. Rear feels pretty good too with preload reduced to #3 from #4, with rebound damping down to 12 clicks out from maximum Hard setting... I love the Conti Trail Attack 150/70 rear with Avon Distanzia front on all types of surfaces by the way.
Forum feedback and complaints about Aprilia's Shiver 750's rear suspension which shares the same design, are interestingly the same as for the Versys; With preload set high enough to prevent bottoming out, ride is too stiff and unforgiving. Many are experiencing with Hyperpro progressive spring and/or trying to upgrade the entire shock.

I returned a few days ago from an 1800 mile trip up to the north of Scotland and across to 6 of the the islands of the Outer Hebrides.
The Versy, after a winter of doing mods to it, performed above my expectations and I now really do have a compact and lightweight Dual-Sport Adventure bike.
I went on every possible type of road including quite a few miles off-tarmac but not muddy. The suspension was good and a million miles better than stock. It never bottomed-out even on some extreme bumps and I do not now feel the need to get longer travel suspension.
I have the revalved forks plus the replacement "special" Hagon shock which I have found good settings for to suit the forks.
The home-made screen was superb in all conditions including heavy rain other than very high gusty head-winds cruising fast, when it was horrible, blowing my helmet about, but no worse than the standard screen. The bike was remarkably un-affected by these high winds with my Ventura luggage situated behind me, not sticking out into the air-flow like panniers. The Algard under-guard did its job as did the fender extender and the rubber-flap I have fitted behind the Regulator/Rectifier kept the crap from the rear tyre off the reg/rec. The scottoiler ensured I didn't touch the chain. The seat I made was 8 hour comfortable in all conditions, and the electrical mods I have made were 100%.
The new hand-guards, whilst a bit naff looking certainly made a big difference in the cold wet conditions.
The tyres I did the trip on were the Bridgestone BT021 which were superb. They had to be removed on return as they had done 6600 miles and the rear was bald, the front is still good. I have now fitted a pair of Avon Distanzia dual-sport tyres which really look the busines, very chunky. I am off to Spain in June to ride some much more serious trails so we will see how much grip they have. My only concern is the wear-rate. I will report back. Anyone know the recommended tyre-pressure?
I tried to get the Michelin MT60 but they are not available in UK or Spain.
Ted.

I'm impressed by my improved package as well. I modified the windscreen brackets to tilt my Mike's 16.5" tinted windscreen back, leaving only 1/2" clearance with my Zeta handguards at full steering lock. It got rid of the buffeting and vacuum pocket created before. It also looks much better and is fitted closer to fairing and headlight.
I expect more mileage out of my rear Conti Trail Attack, and it does work admirably well with Avon Distanzia front. I just stick to Versys specific 32 psi front and 36 psi rear. Less may be better for gnarly off-road conditions, but increases wear upon higher tarmac speeds... You mean 'Pirelli' MT60? They are great supermoto tires, but your Distanzias will outlast them.

The Avon Distanzia tyres on the Versys on the basis of a 100 mile ride yesterday have exceeded all my expectations.
It is difficult to compare them with the Bridgestone BT021's I took off because the rear tyre was worn really sqare, but the Distanzias feel every bit as good on the road as I remember the new Bridgestones to feel. They are brilliant. The steering seems even lighter, more neutral and more flickable than the Bridgestones.
I took the bike on the famous "Wayfarers" trail in the Berwyns in North Wales, which is definitely as difficult as anything I will ever want to do on the Versys, and it felt so stable, even over loose rocks and water running along the trail in the deep ruts. I know tyres are everything on a bike but this lesson is pretty startling.
I guess the downside to the Avons will be short life, but as long as the life is even half-decent I doubt I will want anything else.
I have used Distanzia's previously on my Big Trail Bike with a 21 inch front and narrower wheel rims but I dont remember the tread pattern being as chunky as these ones with such big blocks and wide grooves.
I will report again after some serious miles and trails in Spain in a few weeks.
Ted.

Felt the bike handling transformed to my liking when switched to Bridgestone BT 021.
Using 32 psi front and 36 psi rear. Have dynabeads in my tyres now. Will try Ride on when next tyre change as recommended by our fellow V bikers.

Have a Great Ride, Ted99uk and You have been a Great help, Invader.Cheers.

Best Regards.

I forgot to mention it but the Distanzia's have an amazingly soft ride, even softer than the BT021's. I was surprised about that.
Ted.