Is the stator dying or is it some other electrical gremlin? - Page 2 - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-05-2015, 01:51 PM Thread Starter
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I took it to the shop and my mechanic looked at it. He did some things differently from the way I did -- most notably, he revved the engine instead of keeping it at idle. He said the bike is in fine shape and not to worry. He instructed me to clean out corrosion in that plug, put in a little dialectric grease, and take my ride in the mountains.

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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-05-2015, 02:13 PM
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I did the three phase test at 2000 RPM VAC was 28 VAC

Also at 2150 to 2200 RPM 31VAC

Last was to ground at 2000 RPM 17.2 to 17.5 VAC

All the above readings can be done individually and should be plus or minus 2 VAC of my readings.

All your measurements should be within 0.5 to 1 VAC between 1;2;3, they should also be identical.

For those looking at this, yes I have 3 meters connected, one on each 3 phase connection, meter 1 is orange to yellow; meter 2 is yellow to blue; meter 3 is blue to orange.

One other point, when looking at the individual pictures, the JPG also contains information as to what conditions the photo was taken i.e. the 31 VAC picture was taken @ 2150 to 2200 RPM

Using 1 digital meter , idle fixed using idle screw @ 2000RPM the readings per phase should be within 0.5 to 1 VAC on all 3 readings

If readings vary by more than 3 VAC, ++ If your no load phase voltage at 2000 RPM on a Delta wound OEM stator is less than 20 VAC, YOU have shorted turns in your stator.

Again, the idle screw must be used to set 2000 RPM, remember the tach isn't a direct connection through a flexible cable like the old days, this is a digital readout, thinking you can hold it exact is going to throw the readings off .


One point I want to make, checking open circuit with the motor at a fixed RPM is the closest thing to getting it surge tested in a motor shop. Each pole in the delta configuration has 44 turns, so that is 264 turns per phase, 2 shorted turns will show up as the voltage difference I described in earlier postings. The reason is, that the shorted turns have become a load in the rotating magnetic field,the phase with the lowest voltage is the phase with the shorted turns.

As this winding continues to fail, the phase with the shorted turns will drop even more, the remaining two phases will display what appears to be normal voltage, what Holden posted in test 2;

1-2: 15v
1-3: 12.8v
2-3: 14v

however the energy being shorted out , will reduce the overall output of the remaining good phases------the readings should have been 22 to 28 VAC


Another way of looking at it, in my burnt stator post 383, I had one photo showing under load @2000 RPM 14.2 VDC and 21 VAC, I know the load is about 6 amp = 6 X 14.2 = 85.2 Watts

So open circuit if the reading was were the averaged measurements = 21 VAC, we could assume we have a internal shorted load of 85 watts.


FastEddie 2015 Stator from Burnt Stator posting:

In answer to a request/ question from "onewizard": I just checked the NO-LOAD voltage on my 2015's stator.

At 2,300 rpm EACH coupled output (A - B; A - C; B - C) was 27 ACV, +-.

At 2,000 rpm, ALL were 25 ACV +-.

Then I checked each to GROUND at 2,000 rpm, and got 15 ACV +-.

Earlier I've posted that the 2015s seem to be built w/ SOMEONE putting co$t above ALL ELSE, as wires seem to be JUST long enough (to make the bike...), but NOT quite long enough to remove, or to fiddle with! A real buggar, getting these things apart...!
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Last edited by onewizard; 09-19-2015 at 10:39 AM. Reason: FastEddie Data 2015 Stator
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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-05-2015, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden View Post
I took it to the shop and my mechanic looked at it. He did some things differently from the way I did -- most notably, he revved the engine instead of keeping it at idle. He said the bike is in fine shape and not to worry. He instructed me to clean out corrosion in that plug, put in a little dialectric grease, and take my ride in the mountains.
Do you think you had bad connections on the plug? I have updated my test results. As to load current, with headlight off, 6 amp on my charger, green light on.So my OSRAM is 65 watt = about 5.2 amp more for a total load of ==11.2

Fan draws 4 amp==15.2 amp

High beam ===16.4

High beam and fan ===20.4 amp

these are approximate values , and on the high side.

Have a close look at my RPM, 2000 RPM is 3 VAC lower than 2150 to 2200 RPM. This is on a hot stator , fan has been running, ambient temperature is 85'F . It appears you followed my instructions, remember, the only current flowing is to drive the meter movement, this will be .0001 amps or less. My Fluke 189 drew 13 micro amp. What I am saying, either you only had one lead attached, one pin wasn't making good contact . The voltage to ground points to a shorted and grounded stator.

looking at earlier readings I don't think you have a grounded stator.

I think G-2 you had a bad connection.



Since you now have a meter, to prove what I am saying.
Set your meter on ohms, short out your leads to prove the meter is working, if you have range selection set it on meg ohms, if auto, no worries.

Connect one lead to a known good ground, using your other lead, connect to one of the stator case cover bolts, meter should read the resistance of your leads, 1 ohm or less.

Disconnect your plug, connect to the white wires, preferably the one you measured 3 volts to ground, although it doesn't matter. You should read 1 million ohms or more. Any reading less than 1000 ohms indicates a grounded stator, what I would expect is less than 5 ohms if it was grounded.

If you go to my post under "burnt stators" page 20, post #383, I have a close up of my tach @ 2000 RPM. This is measuring under load with a series regulator in operation, it is impossible to get 17 VAC or higher using a shunt regulator, under load.

Last edited by onewizard; 09-05-2015 at 03:52 PM.
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-05-2015, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden View Post
I took it to the shop and my mechanic looked at it. He did some things differently from the way I did -- most notably, he revved the engine instead of keeping it at idle. He said the bike is in fine shape and not to worry. He instructed me to clean out corrosion in that plug, put in a little dialectric grease, and take my ride in the mountains.
Did you do the tests at 1450 RPM idle or did you test at 2000RPM?

You must use the idle screw to set 2000 RPM. If you did do this then I am not 98% but 100% sure you have shorted turns.

You took a picture holding the white leads socket in your hand which comes from the stator, so I assume you tested the white leads with the plug disconnected. Compare what you got to my pictures.
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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-05-2015, 04:31 PM
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I now have sufficient information, between my 383 posting using a 4012941 Polaris , and this to change the winding information.I am looking at increasing the wire size to 16 gauge and dropping 4 turns per pole, which would be a 10% increase in current. Dropping to 5% would be 42 turns.
I am expecting to end up with the same hot stator voltage output, that the cold OEM stator had , and increase my output current with less heat produced.

Considering I just tested my stator, with the compu-fire regulator in it, and all the tests point to it is just like new, there is no urgency to wind the stator I have that failed from "Smiley" Thanks again Dave

So my hot stator output I am expecting a total of 5 amp increase available ( 2.3 amp from winding changes and 2.3 to 3 amp from increase in circular mill per amp rating increase from 18 to 16 gauge)

May just be a winter project!!!!!

Last edited by onewizard; 09-05-2015 at 04:36 PM.
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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-05-2015, 05:55 PM Thread Starter
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Ill try again tomorrow. I think I wasn't establishing a strong connection. I was daintily touching the leads to the connectors instead of jamming the leads in there.

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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-05-2015, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Holden View Post
Ill try again tomorrow. I think I wasn't establishing a strong connection. I was daintily touching the leads to the connectors instead of jamming the leads in there.
If you look closely, I made up a harness for testing the Polaris. The Kawasaki socket at this location is 1/4 female spade terminals. The Polaris has a 1/4 heavy male spade ( there is no such thing as heavy, however the terminal's are about .010" thicker). So I have 1/4 inch male bare spade terminals with a wrap of tape around the crimp, and the other end is 1/4 female spade.

You could also use a couple paper clips, in the front of the socket. The open circuit and phase to ground paints the most accurate picture. Look at my pictures for comparison. A 200 RPM increase resulted in a 4 VAC increase.


A third option is to use those needles, #1 push through wire close to socket; #2 push through further away from socket; #3 go twice distance of #2 from socket. When done you can give a wrap of tape or not, since the piercing of the wires is staggered, it is not possible to short out even if you don't tape. I just don't like piercing, as it can nick the copper strands, which leads to failure of the wire, I think this is 16 gauge extra flexible TEW wire, carrying up to 14 amp per phase, so we are pushing the limits of the wire at full load.

Using a Polaris, I wouldn't be as concerned.

Last edited by onewizard; 09-05-2015 at 07:09 PM.
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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-06-2015, 08:49 AM
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Meter 101

One thing I didn't mention, and that is meter accuracy, I know all my meters are accurate, through calibration and calibrators.

Not everyone has that luxury, so you need to compare your meter by testing a AC outlet and / or, also with a friends meter. Canada / USA outlets are 120 VAC, depending on power demand the utility may have brown out conditions or 110VAC , normal values are 110 to 125 VAC.
There are also what is described as split outlets in cooking area's, if you go from the right top to the right bottom of these outlets, you will read 220 to 250 VAC.

Range & full scale accuracy, if you were measuring the above voltages and had two ranges, one was 250 VAC and a second was 600 VAC, the meter reading on 250 VAC will be more accurate than the 600 VAC range-------------having said that, you should always start out using the maximum range available, until you know for sure that you aren't over range.
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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-06-2015, 08:59 AM
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i find best way to test a meter is to plug in a power adapter (power supply thingy for almost any electronic thing these days) it says what its output is and if your meter doesnt read close to it then time for a new one/tune up.. i personally use a black and decker av-dc powersuply with a veriact installed on it so i do a 2V sweep and aslong as my meter reads within 0.01V i call it good

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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-06-2015, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by silviefox View Post
i find best way to test a meter is to plug in a power adapter (power supply thingy for almost any electronic thing these days) it says what its output is and if your meter doesnt read close to it then time for a new one/tune up.. i personally use a black and decker av-dc powersuply with a veriact installed on it so i do a 2V sweep and aslong as my meter reads within 0.01V i call it good
I assume you are talking DC, the critical measurement in this thread is AC.
As to your suggestion of using a adapter, I just sold two of my Tektronix oscilloscopes , THS 720, I had 5 adapters, 3 original and two after market. The adapter said 120VAC in and 12 VDC out, the after market outputted 16 VDC, the original equipment was 14.5 VDC, 2.5 VDC to 4 VDC high. The reason for the variation is all power supplies use filtration, switching mode may be more accurate, although all the ones I tested were high as well.

A third thing to keep in mind is most devices have their own built in regulation, my scopes used a 4.8 VDC NICAD / NIMH battery, the adapter was 12 VDC.

If I wanted to verify my volts DC on my meter, I would go out and start my car, it should be 14.2 to 14.5 VDC, plus or minus 0.5 volts.

Last edited by onewizard; 09-06-2015 at 10:08 AM.
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post #31 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-06-2015, 03:26 PM
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Glen - you just GOTTA get yourself a 2015...!


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post #32 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-06-2015, 05:01 PM
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Glen - you just GOTTA get yourself a 2015...!

I don't like the headlight but that shock looks nice, then again I told my better half that you have your bike all ripped apart. As time goes on we become accustomed to what we want, and get to know exactly what is involved to get there. I fully expected that you would be able to do the job in under 2 hours, since you have had training from JD. As you know the student training is only as good as the teacher performing the training .

I will wait a year, since I have just performed my latest stator tests, I have come to realize that what I have is a very simple and quick test any mechanic could do in under 20 minutes. My stator is in perfect electrical condition, this open circuit test produces voltages about 3 times what is normally seen by the shunt regulator. This is standard practice for testing of windings.
So I may just take a ride over to my Kawi dealer and have a look. Just that I got my ride exactly the way I want it.
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post #33 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-07-2015, 10:14 AM
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Open circuit Stator Test Benchmark

For those following this thread, checking open circuit at 2000 RPM you should get 28 VAC ( plus or minus 2 VAC allowing for Tach error)

Checking at 2000RPM from phase to ground open circuit, should be 15 to 17 VAC, plus or minus 2 VAC for the same tach error.

This is from a 07 Delta wound stator, if you get the same results, as what I posted earlier-your stator is 100% OK


any questions feel free to ask

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post #34 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-07-2015, 10:44 AM
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Shorted Turns / Results=Possible Regulator Failure

I will try and explain from a 3 phase motor perspective. If you blew L#1 fuse while the motor was running, you would have current flow on L#2 to L#3 only, no current on L#1 to L#2 and L#1 to L#3.
If the motor didn't shut off you would end up with a burnt motor with what is referred to as a single phase condition, every third coil would be burnt.

The shunt regulator is designed to output 1.732 X 13.85 amp DC = 24 amp DC, if we have a phase loss the individual lines in are designed to handle 14 amp maximum, continued use with a failed stator may result in regulator failure, because it is possible to exceed 14 amp on one phase with this condition, that applies to both the shunt and series regulator.

To explain what goes on , the stator is designed to have a magnetic field that produces 330 watts , the copper and iron are designed to handle 330 watts, running the motor at twice red line ( if it were possible) will not produce anymore power as the copper / iron are magnetically saturated.

So 14.2 VDC at 23.23 amp DC or 14.2 X 23.23 = 330 Watts

If we have shorted turns, these turns may draw 100 watts at idle and 200 watts at 5000 RPM, at idle I know we have roughly 130 to 140 watts maximum available, so at idle your led would be red, as 40 watts isn't enough to keep up.

At 5000 RPM that shorted turn is drawing 200 watts leaving 130 watts available, this is sufficient to maintain a green LED

Once you have shorted turns, changing out the shunt regulator and installing a series regulator, will only accelerate the failure, and in all likelihood your series regulator will also fail, due to single phase current conditions.

I know this is highly technical, anyone that grasps what I am saying and would like me to explain further----------ask away

If it wasn't for the helpful nature of the people on this forum, I would have sold my 07 in the spring of 09-------someone posted you can borrow my wife, my car-------------don't touch my Versys




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post #35 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-07-2015, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
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I tried again. Let me add that the headlight was on, as well as the Clearwater Glenda running lights, which use 12 watts. I can't recall if the fan turned on. Bike was running off the battery.


Idle screw set at 2,000.


Pulled the plug from the stator. I inserted leads into the plug with the white wires and measured voltages:
1-2: 14.4
1-3: 14.3
2-3 13 one time, then a few minutes later 18.6.


Then I took the unplugged plug from the stator and inserted a lead into each terminal and the other lead onto the bike's grounding bolt, under the saddle:
Ground to 1: 8.8
Ground to 2: 7.5
Ground to 3: 7.3


I set the meter on ohms. With the plug still unplugged, I inserted a lead into each terminal and the other lead on the bike's grounding bolt, under the saddle:
0 ohms each time (I think I misunderstood directions for this test.)


I plugged the plug back in. I set the meter on ohms, connected a lead to the grounding bolt under the saddle and connected the other lead to a couple of stator case cover bolts:
0 ohms


With the plug plugged in and the bike running, I measured the voltage at the battery terminals:
Idle screw set at 2K: 13.7
Revved around 4K: 14.3
Idle at 1.3K: 12.5 for a while (my voltage sentry LED was steady green). Then 12.35 (my voltage sentry LED was solid yellow).


Here's how Clearwater says to interpret those colors:
Solid green: Between 12.5 and 13.1 volts. Good battery condition with the bike off; poor to weak charging condition with the bike running. This can also indicate your accessories are drawing too much power. Note: some bikes do not generate sufficient power at idle. This can be normal. If you get the solid green light while your bike is idling, run the engine faster and it should start flashing green.


Solid yellow: Indicates between 12.1 and 12.4 volts. This indicates the battery needs to be recharged. If this occurs while the bike is running, it means you are drawing a lot more power than the alternator is generating, and potentially a bad alternator.

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Last edited by Holden; 09-07-2015 at 11:10 AM.
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post #36 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-07-2015, 11:11 AM
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I tried again. Let me add that the headlight was on, as well as the Clearwater Glenda running lights, which use 12 watts. I can't recall if the fan turned on. Bike was running off the battery.


Idle screw set at 2,000.


Pulled the plug from the stator. I inserted leads into the plug with the white wires and measured voltages:
1-2: 14.4
1-3: 14.3
2-3 13 one time, then a few minutes later 18.6.


Then I took the unplugged plug from the stator and inserted a lead into each terminal and the other lead onto the bike's grounding bolt, under the saddle:
Ground to 1: 8.8
Ground to 2: 7.5
Ground to 3: 7.3


I set the meter on ohms. With the plug still unplugged, I inserted a lead into each terminal and the other lead on the bike's grounding bolt, under the saddle:
0 ohms each time


I plugged the plug back in. I set the meter on ohms, connected a lead to the grounding bolt under the saddle and connected the other lead to a couple of stator case cover bolts:
0 ohms


With the plug plugged in and the bike running, I measured the voltage at the battery terminals:
Idle screw set at 2K: 13.7
Revved around 4K: 14.3
Idle at 1.3K: 12.5 for a while (my voltage sentry LED was steady green). Then 12.35 (my voltage sentry LED was solid yellow).

and potentially a bad alternator.
I assume you were at 2000 RPM and volts AC on those first readings, 14.4 etc. the zero ohms to ground-------
to the burnt and grounded stator club
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post #37 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-07-2015, 11:23 AM
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You mention your headlight was on, that is a flaw on every Kawasaki bike, as you weren't putting any charging current into the system.The headlight relay is designed to pull in using the output of the stator, inserting a diode at the starter solenoid will eliminate this problem.

I covered this around post 383 page 20 of burnt stators, it was designed to lock out the headlight relay while starting, once started the alternator produces 12 volts to pull in the relay, it remains latched in, if you stalled the engine it would remain on, if you purposely pulled the stick coils while the motor was stalled and the headlight was on,pressed start, while the start motor was turning over the engine, the headlight would go off and remain off. I explained why this doesn't always happen under that 383 post.
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post #38 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-07-2015, 04:01 PM
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[
Then I took the unplugged plug from the stator and inserted a lead into each terminal and the other lead onto the bike's grounding bolt, under the saddle:
Ground to 1: 8.8
Ground to 2: 7.5
Ground to 3: 7.3


I set the meter on ohms. With the plug still unplugged, I inserted a lead into each terminal and the other lead on the bike's grounding bolt, under the saddle:
0 ohms each time (I think I misunderstood directions for this test.)


I plugged the plug back in. I set the meter on ohms, connected a lead to the grounding bolt under the saddle and connected the other lead to a couple of stator case cover bolts:
0 ohms



[/QUOTE]

"I think I misunderstood directions for this test", in fact you did not misunderstand. If you were to measure phase to phase with your ohmmeter , it would measure 0 ohms, if you used a LCR meter that uses a high frequency output, it would read somewhat higher and in henry's.

The voltage to ground on #3 would indicate that is the grounded winding, possibly in the middle of the winding, that is the third pole, it also has shorted turns , pulling the total output below normal.
Normally you wouldn't measure to ground, but it has what is termed capacitive coupling .My 07 measured 17 VAC because of this capacitive coupling.
Ohms to ground using the ohmmeter, with the plug disconnected should have been infinity, or in excess of 10 million ohms.
If you still doubt that your stator has failed, using a 12 volt low wattage bulb and socket, connect from case ground to #1 with the plug disconnected, start your bike, rev the engine, if the bulb glows, you have current through it from stator output to ground, capacitive coupling will barely drive a digital meter, adding a second meter would cut the reading in half, as capacitive coupling is much like static electricity, enough to give you a shock but no current.



BTW all your postings are very organized and easy to follow, in fact easier than following my posts. I am going to need to find out how to post individual pictures and place text in between.



Help Eddie

Last edited by onewizard; 09-07-2015 at 04:05 PM.
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post #39 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-07-2015, 04:27 PM
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Final stator failure/ how long?

At the point you are now, you could possibly continue to ride it for another month.

A couple things, continued riding may cause the shunt regulator to fail, one symptom of the regulator failed is to try and charge a dead battery and have no success at it, the reason being that positive goes directly from the main fuse to the regulator. Once the regulator shorts out, it discharges the battery even when keyed off.

If you are in the mountains and you are running green above 5000 RPM, yellow below 3000 RPM, red near idle. Be prepared to remove your battery terminal when you park it, this will prevent draining of the battery, which may allow you to limp home at high RPM's.

As to stator replacement, stay away from RM stator as they use a Y connected 18 gauge winding, unless you plan on getting rid of the bike and or intend to install a 4012941 regulator at the same time. In Canada they are selling the stator new for $100 last time I checked. If your plan is to keep the bike for a while get a OEM stator, and replace the regulator with a 4012941 regulator. It will never fail again, unless you are running a air conditioner on your bike.
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post #40 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 04:37 AM Thread Starter
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Aw, maaaaaaaan!

Remember when I said this? "I set the meter on ohms. With the plug still unplugged, I inserted a lead into each terminal and the other lead on the bike's grounding bolt, under the saddle:
0 ohms each time (I think I misunderstood directions for this test.)"

Yes, I misunderstood something: What "infinity" looks like on my multimeter. It said 0.L, not 0. The resistance was infinity, not zero. I suppose that changes the diagnosis. Or at least the prognosis.
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Last edited by Holden; 09-08-2015 at 06:13 AM.
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