Valve Check/Adjustment - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 10:39 AM Thread Starter
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Feedback Requested - Reassembly Camcaps

I appear to have lost a cylinder shaped sleeve in the process of inspecting valve clearance. I want to confirm that I am missing it before going into tearing about the bottom end looking for it. I have attached a pic in which above the #1 exhaust valve there is not a sleeve for the camcap bolt, but there is a sleeve for the other three. The missing one is marked with a ?

I have fairly thoroughly visually inspected the head for the damn thing and can't find it. I am wondering if it would even fit down the timing chain gap anyway....



Anyone have any experience they can share with this would be appreciated. From a second opinion that I do indeed need to tear into this bottom end and find the missing piece, or advice that would otherwise rule that need out. For instance, there is no way that piece could fit down into the timing chain gap to it should only have three of these things anyhow.
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post #2 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 10:58 AM
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Have you looked at the valve cover? It may be stuck in the hole there.
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post #3 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 10:59 AM
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Yes ... there is suposed to be two alignment dowels for each cam cap ... total of four ... before you start fretting ... look at the cam cap ... it probably is stuck in the cap ... if it isn't there ... well .... good fishing ...
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post #4 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 11:52 AM
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+1 to freewheeler's comments. If the dowel is not under one of the caps I think it's more likely in the cylinder head, in amongst the cams and oil, rather than down in lower end of the engine as the only way down there is on the right hand side where the chain runs. You might also look in the spark plug holes. You have my sympathy; it gives you a sick feeling, doesn't it?
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post #5 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgajohnymac View Post
I am wondering if it would even fit down the timing chain gap anyway....
This exact scenario on my EX500 resulted in the timing chain jumping a few teeth. I learned a lot about replacing bent valves, though.
Get one of those telescoping magnets.
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post #6 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 12:02 PM
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Lightbulb

Just turn the whole bike upside down and shake it, maybe it will fall out


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post #7 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 12:51 PM Thread Starter
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Checked all the recommended solutions, looked and felt with the stick mirror and magnet throiughout the head. I also rechecked the shop floor and counters, and under rugs.....I am begining to wonder if replacing the caps, then turning over the engine at the timing access to see if it sticks anywhere, or will this just complicate matters?
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post #8 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 01:58 PM
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Doesn't take much to ruin an engine, bend a valve or worse. I would not turn that engine over until you find the part. IMHO anyway. I remember once I small screw fell out of may hand, spend the day looking for it, couldn't find it and thought it was offered to the garage floor gods, I mean, no way could a small screw jump from two feet away out of my hand and down an open intake tract could it? But I ran a magnet probe down there anyway, nothing, I mean what are the chance that the screw fell out of my hand, it the intake tract AND the intake valve was open enough to let the screw in, right?

Well, a bent valve, damaged head and damaged piston later I came to the conclusion I should have played the lotto that day as the chance gods were in my favor. Moral of the story, find the part!
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post #9 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 02:03 PM Thread Starter
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I meant to turn the engine over by hand to see it anything stuck. At least then I would feel good about draining the oil, and opening up the bottom end to look from there.

I guess I am wondering what to remove first after draining the enginer oil.

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Originally Posted by marc11 View Post
Doesn't take much to ruin an engine, bend a valve or worse. I would not turn that engine over until you find the part. IMHO anyway. I remember once I small screw fell out of may hand, spend the day looking for it, couldn't find it and thought it was offered to the garage floor gods, I mean, no way could a small screw jump from two feet away out of my hand and down an open intake tract could it? But I ran a magnet probe down there anyway, nothing, I mean what are the chance that the screw fell out of my hand, it the intake tract AND the intake valve was open enough to let the screw in, right?

Well, a bent valve, damaged head and damaged piston later I came to the conclusion I should have played the lotto that day as the chance gods were in my favor. Moral of the story, find the part!
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post #10 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgajohnymac View Post
I meant to turn the engine over by hand to see it anything stuck. At least then I would feel good about draining the oil, and opening up the bottom end to look from there.

I guess I am wondering what to remove first after draining the enginer oil.
I think gently turning the engine will at least give you a idea if its stuck somewhere. How the hell did you manage to screw up like this, my sympathy
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post #11 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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I am not sure when it turned up missing, first I noted it was when I went to replace the camcaps....looks like I am going to pull the cams and timing assy to probe with the magnet. Oil is out, will post up if I find it!
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post #12 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 02:48 PM
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Remove the large timing cover - check not caught behind chain at bottom of tunnel? If cant get out? pull the clutch cover off (undo the two clutch relase plates screws and fiddle a bit, will keep adjustment) Crank sensor wheel will come off/on as pegged.

Oil wont come out on sidestand, but put rear wheel on a plank if not sure?
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post #13 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
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I would rather spend some time worrying and find out its just my oversight anyway. Found the little bugger in the shroud for the radiator. I swear I already looked there a couple times...thanks for the feedback! I love this site.

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post #14 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 02:54 PM
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Did you pull the valve cover out the left side? Did you stick the magnet in the spark plug holes (without removing them)? You can try using a small mirror to check in more spots.
PS: Ahah, you found it! I though it could've fallen off the left side, around where you found it.
Right on, Johny!
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post #15 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 02:57 PM
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What are your valve clearance measurements at?
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post #16 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
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What are your valve clearance measurements at?
I am still having issues with my feeler gage technique. On the number 2 exhaust valves I can get the .6mm in it. I am at the proper cam position, just not sure which measurement is correct.

I can start to feel resistance going up in size gage at .254 mm. After that increasing the gage size until it will not fit does not give a stopping point. I am uncertain that this is the proper technique. I got up to .4mm and then skipped to the .6 and even it fit...
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post #17 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 04:07 PM Thread Starter
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As best I can tell, all clearances are within spec, however the #2 exhaust clearances are at the bottom of the spec.

As for my technique I tried using a micrometer and dialing in the gage dimension and then tightening the micrometer and feeling the differences. I think I am close. I just had some bad advice that said if the gage goes in the to keep sizing up until it dosen't. This however dosen't work for this measurement. I think I have it right.

I am getting almost identical numbers to when I checked these last fall at 17k when they were close for the exhaust, but good for the inlets.

By the numbers at 23k;

Inlet 1-1 .178mm
Inlet 1-2 .178mm
Inlet 2-1 .178mm
Inlet 2-2 .203mm
Ex 1-1 .229mm
Ex 1-2 .254mm
Ex 2-1 .229mm
Ex 2-2 .229mm
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post #18 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgajohnymac View Post
As best I can tell, all clearances are within spec, however the #2 exhaust clearances are at the bottom of the spec.
If the clearances are (were) in spec, then why did you go any further? To my mind "in spec" is "in spec". I think people get hung up on being in the middle or on the loose end of spec. It seems to me that the manufacturer takes into consideration service interval and wear when they come up with the spec. If you are on the bottom of spec this time and next time you are below spec, this is part of the grand design. I think being slightly out of spec is not dangerous to the motor, but it is at that point that an adjustment is should be made.

If you do have valves out of spec and have to take the cams out, then it makes sense to do some shim swapping to move away from the edges of spec, which might keep you from ever having to remove the cams again.

But removing the cams when the valves are all in spec opens the door to mistakes like you encountered.

By the way, I currently have my cams out, waiting for mail-order shims. This is my first check and I had 3 valves out of spec, and 4 that were at the bottom of spec. I'm only correcting the the 3, as I don't want to spend additional $35 on shims at this time. That may end up being a bad choice; we'll see next time.

I also had one of those dowels go AWOL, but I saw it when it went flying and saw where it landed.

One of the things I learned in removing the cams is that there are 2 different positions for the cams when the engine is at the "2 over T" mark. (Similar to the issue you had when making your initial measurements a couple of days ago). On one of those positions, the cams are under tension from the valve springs, but rotating the engine 360 degrees apparently leaves them with all the lobes sticking up, away from the valves. This latter position makes removal of the cam caps easier and safer as they should come off without the tension of the valve springs. Unfortunately, I didn't recognize this difference and put the engine in the "wrong" position and the cam caps came off with some difficulty.

So, the moral of the story is to position the motor at the 2 over T mark with the cams positioned in the "reassembly position" that the manual calls for. This should make the cam cap removal easy.

The weird thing is, that I will be putting the cams in in a different position than they were when I took them out, but the engine won't know or care. With the cams removed, there is no longer a correct and incorrect 2 over T position, correctness is determined by the re-installation of the cams.

It sounds like we are at about the same stage in our respective valve adjustments. Good luck with yours!

Michael
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post #19 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 09:04 PM Thread Starter
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In retrospect, I wish I hadnt removed the camcaps. There was no need. My intention was to get at the clearance measurement. I didnt remove them the first time at 17k. After replacing the caps I got the measurments I posted.

I am surprised that the clearances are almost identical to what I got at 17k. That was my worry from reading others issues with tight clearances.
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post #20 of 273 (permalink) Old 07-18-2010, 09:19 PM
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I was able to adjust all my valves including an exhaust clearance under spec by switching around and thinning some shims with fine emery cloth and metric micrometer. At 4500 miles, I set all my inlets at 0.18 mm and exhausts at 0.26 mm, all in middle of range for optimum balance and equal lift and duration between all valves, and to be furthest away from spec limits... The first inspection is the most critical. Clearances shouldn't vary much over time if it was originally properly set and settled within spec upon break-in, and/or after first adjustment.

Last edited by invader; 07-18-2010 at 09:40 PM.
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