Thermo Bob question - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 05:55 AM Thread Starter
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Thermo Bob question

Can someone give me a better understanding of how this part works to better fuel range and oil life and performance.
I've only understood it to be that a hotter engine does the opposite.

On one of my Ralley bikes I have larger radiators and a custom 1.7 litre oil cooling bash plate that was specifically designed to reduce oil temperatures and increase capacity to prolong the oil and thus engine life and also performance. I have dyno sheets that prove that it produces more HP running cooler.

On my Stock 06 VFR800 I have a VTR100 cooling fan that has the fan blades reversed and that reduces the overall running temperature by 10 degrees C and it runs better and doesn't shear the oil inside 5000km any more.

On performance cars they have water injection to cool the fuel... intercoolers too..

Is this part meant for Sub zero climates only, because I live in a climate that ranges between freezing winters and Sahara summers.

I just can't work out the rationale of this product. I'm not trying to discredit it but it makes no sense to me or anyone I've asked about the theory behind what the web site says. It appears to be for general climates too.

What am I missing here...
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post #2 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 06:18 AM
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Thermo bob is a whole discusion on it own here lol, freezing in NSW??? Boy you would do it hard here in winter.
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post #3 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 06:21 AM
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The problem is that with the Versys lack of a proper radiator bypass as used on most automobile and motorcycle liquid cooled engines, the oil can't normally reach optimum operating temperature of at least 212F to evaporate moisture even in normal ambient temperatures... A 3mm bypass hole in the thermostat housing instead compromises coolant temperature control and stability. Coolant is routed through the engine cases to the cylinder and head via a simplified cooling system, which reduces external plumbing.
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post #4 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 07:19 AM Thread Starter
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Thermo bob is a whole discusion on it own here lol, freezing in NSW??? Boy you would do it hard here in winter.
Minus 4 this winter. But I know you Kiwis are better in the cold all day long on new estate Suburbs being built.. without any wind protection except a shovel. No mountains here for a break mate. I ride to work too... 50km each way all year round. And the Snowies on the weekends for fun.

Don't Ski though too scary for me our snow is more ice than powder soft

I was asking for technical advice not how hard you feel the cold.
Any advice on the topic though?
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post #5 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 07:36 AM
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Ok on weather, in colder temps the bike will warm up quicker so that should be avantage for you in that cold country.
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post #6 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 07:36 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
The problem is that with the Versys lack of a proper radiator bypass as used on most automobile and motorcycle liquid cooled engines, the oil can't normally reach optimum operating temperature of at least 212F
212F is 100C which is boiling point for water which is where a bikes operating temp is measured from... the radiator not the oil... the engine oil is way hotter than that.
I understand that a bike runs better with less implications warm than stone cold but does this device maintain a higher operating temp or just assist in the warm up?

212F is too hot to be beneficial in performance or oil longevity for a long duration

Last edited by crow; 12-27-2012 at 07:43 AM.
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post #7 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 07:43 AM Thread Starter
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Ok on weather, in colder temps the bike will warm up quicker so that should be avantage for you in that cold country.
I did mention how bloody hot it gets here too... you know that already or should.. You get the ash from our bush fires

I'm trying to figure out a reasoning for this device how it works.. not debate the weather mate
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post #8 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 07:43 AM
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post #9 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 07:53 AM Thread Starter
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Peace Kiwi you guys have Speights and better Shearers... And road racing too
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post #10 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crow View Post
212F is 100C which is boiling point for water which is where a bikes operating temp is measured from... the radiator not the oil... the engine oil is way hotter than that.
I understand that a bike runs better with less implications warm than stone cold but does this device maintain a higher operating temp or just assist in the warm up?

212F is too hot to be beneficial in performance or oil longevity for a long duration
Without a radiator bypass, oil temperature is at 177(+/-4)F, and up to 205F in slower traffic at 80+F. It can barely ever reach at least 212F as it should, as witnessed by poochar's oil temp gauge with temp sensor in oil pressure access plug.
Engine operating temperature is not as stable and uniform because of the coolant's poor temperature management, and warm ups are not as quick or normally sufficient. It's often not up to ideal operating temperature which does affect long-term wear.
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post #11 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 08:06 AM
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Yep speights is pretty good, I would read through this thread on thermo bob as it has been discussed a lot. 213 replies and over 15,000 views.
Thermo-Bob
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post #12 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 08:11 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi 41 View Post
Yep speights is pretty good, I would read through this thread on thermo bob as it has been discussed a lot. 213 replies and over 15,000 views.
Thermo-Bob
thanks gonna be a long night..
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post #13 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 08:18 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
Without a radiator bypass, oil temperature is at 177(+/-4)F, and up to 205F in slower traffic at 80+F. It can barely ever reach at least 212F as it should, as witnessed by poochar's oil temp gauge with temp sensor in oil pressure access plug.
Engine operating temperature is not as stable and uniform because of the coolant's poor temperature management, and warm ups are not as quick or normally sufficient. It's often not up to ideal operating temperature which does affect long-term wear.
What was the air temp there when you took these measurements?
Canada gets colder than... Kiwi 41's hill tops
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post #14 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 08:50 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi 41 View Post
Yep speights is pretty good, I would read through this thread on thermo bob as it has been discussed a lot. 213 replies and over 15,000 views.
Thermo-Bob
No answer to my original question of how a hotter than 100 degree C "running" temp is more beneficial than a cooler one I could find...

but I can gather it is meant to assist in very cold environments at warm up only and after that nothing beneficial to be gained.

Not too many tech heads came out on that thread but a V8 ski boat mechanic who did have a very valid point though not relevant to the bike concerned or its purposeful use.

Never mind. Not worth losing sleep over..

nice invention I think on par with swing arm spools... only a few people actually need them..night guys off to the nest
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post #15 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
Without a radiator bypass, oil temperature is at 177(+/-4)F, and up to 205F in slower traffic at 80+F. It can barely ever reach at least 212F as it should, as witnessed by poochar's oil temp gauge with temp sensor in oil pressure access plug.
Engine operating temperature is not as stable and uniform because of the coolant's poor temperature management, and warm ups are not as quick or normally sufficient. It's often not up to ideal operating temperature which does affect long-term wear.
By way of answering in a round-about way - V8 engined 'ski-boats' do not use radiators (in most cases), so cold water is ALWAYS entering the engine's cooling jacket, resulting in the cylinder where it enters wearing out way quicker than the others, as it NEVER gets to proper operating temps (meaning the engine clearances will be TOO big). Bill, "Thermo-Bobs" inventor, is an engineer, and decided to put thermo-couples ALL OVER his KLR650's system, then, as he rides the same route to work each day (in Phoenix, AZ, which gets DAMNED HOT in the summer, and chilly in winters) to see what was happening. He discovered pretty quickly that, as indicated by swings on its temp gauge, it never really got to a stable temp EXCEPT when being operated in very warm temps. It's all detailed on his site:
http://www.watt-man.com/
so just look around till you find his data.

In chats we had after I got my '08 Versys, he decided to buy a Versys and attach thermo-couples to see if the V system ALSO did not have a bypass. His research showed that, so he 'worked-up' a Thermo-Bob for the Versys community.

I attached one of his first Thermo-Bobs to my KLR and noticed the change right away, so when he made the Versys kit, I bought TWO - one each for my '08 and '09 Vs.

I BELIEVE that they are excellent products that fill a need to fix "Ma Kawasaki's" decision to 'cheap-out' on engine cooling....

Ed

My KLR trip to Alaska, YT, NWT and BC in summer 2009
http://www.klr650.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69383

My Versys trip to D2D 2013, and Alaska, June '13
http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...ad.php?t=33153

My Versys trip to D2D 2015, and Inuvik, June '15
http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...ad.php?t=83034
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post #16 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fasteddiecopeman View Post
In chats we had after I got my '08 Versys, he decided to buy a Versys and attach thermo-couples to see if the V system ALSO did not have a bypass. His research showed that, so he 'worked-up' a Thermo-Bob for the Versys community.

I attached one of his first Thermo-Bobs to my KLR and noticed the change right away, so when he made the Versys kit, I bought TWO - one each for my '08 and '09 Vs.

I BELIEVE that they are excellent products that fill a need to fix "Ma Kawasaki's" decision to 'cheap-out' on engine cooling....
Thanks alot mate i'm getting my head around it I think...plus any engineer inventor that goes and buys a Versys to further prove his product and create a line after a chat with you can't be too caught up in a fangled fad idea to sell the masses.

Where he road tested it is similar to my climates and I agree with Kawasaki being a cheap arse where it can be.

I'm happy to be totally wrong where this bike is concerned. I don't know enough about comparable cooling systems to know what we are missing on ours.

I think I'll get one and show him a bit of support for his efforts and do my bike a big favour too..

well sold!

Last edited by crow; 12-27-2012 at 04:30 PM.
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post #17 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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ordered and on its way.. the hugger will have to wait.

Many thanks for the efforts to help me understand this one!
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post #18 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 12:26 PM
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My less scientific and more butt-dyno take on the thermo-bob: When my bike was stock, on a cold morning (cold for Los Angeles is 35-45F), I'd fire up the engine, let it drop to low idle, then take off. At the corner about 200 yards down the street from me is the main road with plenty of traffic. I'd turn the corner, give it some juice, and it would stumble. Definitely not full power on a cold engine. With the thermo-bob, same scenario, I can turn the corner and have nice smooth acceleration up to whatever speed I needed. I no longer have to let the bike idle for a long period of time, or worry about getting mashed by a speeding car. I honestly haven't noticed much improvement in MPG, and have no way to quantify the extended engine longevity, but the ability to fire it up hop on and go is certainly worth the price tag to me.
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post #19 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 08:42 AM
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Thanks, guys. I wanted to address a few statements in crow's original post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by crow View Post
Can someone give me a better understanding of how this part works to better fuel range and oil life and performance.
I've only understood it to be that a hotter engine does the opposite.

On one of my Ralley bikes I have larger radiators and a custom 1.7 litre oil cooling bash plate that was specifically designed to reduce oil temperatures and increase capacity to prolong the oil and thus engine life and also performance. I have dyno sheets that prove that it produces more HP running cooler.

On my Stock 06 VFR800 I have a VTR100 cooling fan that has the fan blades reversed and that reduces the overall running temperature by 10 degrees C and it runs better and doesn't shear the oil inside 5000km any more.

On performance cars they have water injection to cool the fuel... intercoolers too..
I think a lot of people get in the 'hotter is worse' mindset because they know that 260F is worse than 220F. And that 300F is worse than 260F. And I agree. But how about 100F vs. 60F? There, hotter is better. What about 160F vs 120F? Hotter is still better... and so on. There's a temperature that we wish the bikes ran all the time, and that's in that 180-220 range. As pointed out by others, we do want to keep the moisture out of the oil.

I think we focus on the hotter-than-220 side because engine failures due to overheating are somewhat spectacular and immediate. Engine failure (premature wear) from overcooling occurs over time and aren't spectacular stories to tell - but obviously we'd like to avoid both.

Watt-man
04 KLR650, 110,000 mi (one doohickey and one Thermo-Bob, that's it).
Ride it like you own it!

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post #20 of 49 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 01:34 PM
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I am going to jump in here and say that the Thermo-bob is designed and built to the same standards that we have come to appreciate from Speedy.
As to MPG, you would notice a difference if you were riding in minus temperatures. My two cents worth-------again, this is a excellent forum. I can say that Watt-man has a excellent product, worth every penny IMO.

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