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post #121 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Onewizard, You are right on the money. According to the impedance test, the stator passed. No ground or short was detected.



Each field gave this reading.

But when I tested each field for VAC, A and B put out a little under 40 VAC, and C under 2 VAC.

Nice Californian tan on it now........................



What it looked like when installed last Sept..............................



The switch in the post above is rated for 30A, but I have not bought a switch yet. I wonder how much current the indicator on the tip of that particular switch draws?

:
If it has a 30 amp rating, it is probably rated 12 volts DC, 30 amp toggle switches @ 250 VAC are hard to find, however if it is rated for 30 amp, you should be OK, 80% is 24 amp, unless you have auxiliary lights or heated gear you are never going to see that high a output for more than a couple minutes.
goodluck:

BTW, I have one of these installed, and in spite of flat battery it never turned red , let alone yellow. Now i feel like a fool for recommending them to others.
I'll be looking for one of those LED digital types like the one posted earlier.



I don't recognize the unit, it may be a copy, I have a Heads Up , it works flawlessly, it is simple and waterproof, I use the term "green is good", day or night a quick glance, actually in a really dark country road it is almost too bright. Also , every time I start the bike it goes red, yellow after about 10 seconds of running then solid green after a minute. When the bike is hot, after a long ride and idling, when the fan comes on it goes yellow then solid red if I pull on high beam ( I am running Osram H7 65 watt)


As to your stator, that is a sign of regulator failure, I would say you never ever had a shorted turn or ground, 1 phase of the regulator failed, and you cooked the stator .

Last edited by onewizard; 12-09-2012 at 09:16 PM.
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post #122 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 10:42 PM
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I seriously appreciate the time people spend on these technical issues. I learn so much.

That being said, all this chatter has caused the perfectly good stator on my '09 45,000 mi. V to crap out last week. Coincidence? I dunno, but I'm not going to read any flat tire posts for a while.

Fortunately still under warranty, so they're going to do whatever they do.


Seriously, I learn a lot about this bike on this site too.

I'm curious...would you (or others) explain how this malady occurred? I mean, did you just go to start your bike one day and nothing, took it to the shop and they diagnosed it? Did it crap out while riding? Were there any "signs" and "signals" before the failure? I ask because my V is closing in on 38,000 miles...I am covered for the next 2 1/2 years under warranty, so I am not particularly worried, but I just want to have "my head up" (if possible).



Ride to live, live to ride.
2009 Kawasaki Versys
2010 Yamaha YZ 250F
2008 Honda CRF 450
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I've owned a Maico.
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post #123 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-10-2012, 12:06 AM
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"Fundamental Problems for Permanent Magnet Alternators-

There are fundamental physical difficulties in constructing a generator with permanent magnets, that has to operate over a large rpm range. Hence all manufactures using this principle fight with the following issues:

•Very large currents cause very high temperatures inside the windings of the stator.

•Very high voltages at high rpm cause breakdown and shorts in the insulation materials.

•Temperature cycles inside the stator cause mechanical expansion and compression. On top of this comes vibrations, so over time the insulation materials will crack and deteriorate.

•The subsequent voltage regulator must be able to convert a very large input voltage range to the output 13.5 Volts.

On top of these problems, Honda and many other manufactures unfortunately use a very unelegant rectifier/regulator design called a shunt regulator which causes much higher currents in the stator windings than a more ideal design would. The shunt type deliberately shorts some of the stator windings when the output voltage exceeds the desired level, thereby allowing huge currents to flow in the windings. These currents create a rotating magnetic field which counteracts the rotating magnetic field from the permanent magnet, and thus effectively reduces the induced voltage. These shorting currents do not dissipate much power outside the alternator as the shorting voltage is low (it is a thyristor or a FET which creates the short), but they cause extra heat dissipation and hence extra temperature rise inside the stator windings.

The Shunt Regulator-

The shunt regulator is called 'shunt' because it literally puts a shunt across two stator outputs each time the voltage exceeds a certain limit. The first time I heard about this principle, I refused to believe that anything so stupid had been designed, but I was proven wrong. The shunt regulator can be constructed with lower production cost and has hence been chosen as standard, even if it means much higher current loading on the stator windings.
The shunt regulator uses high shorting currents in the stator windings to create an extra rotating magnetic field counteracting the rotating field from the permanent magnet. The resulting magnetic field is hence reduced and so are the induced voltages. The high shorting currents cause extra heat dissipation in the stator windings and are probably the reason for having high failure rates on this component.

The Serial Regulator-

A rectifier/regulator design of a different type called a series regulator uses disconnection rather than shorting to obtain regulation. It therefore has inherently lower current load on the stator windings with potentially lower stator failure rates.

Symptom: Battery runs flat and bike wont start-

This happened for me with my one-year old Honda CBF1000A. As it was still under warranty, I simply took it to the Honda dealer where the stator was replaced.
According to what I have read on the forums, Honda is often (but not always) replacing stators free of charge (you see the ambiguity of this expression in this context ? ;-) even if the bike is no longer under warranty.

It could also have been the battery which was not working properly, but a charging test will pretty easily reveal if this is the case.

It might also be due to a failing rectifier/regulator, but it is not my impression that this is often the reason. To get a better feeling of this, I would like to hear from you if you have positively experienced a blown rectifier/regulator unit on any of these bikes.

Failure: Stator Shorted to Ground-

A stator with a winding shorted to ground on a CBR600 will not charge the battery, even if putting out 65 VAC from each phase at 6000 rpm. The regulator is simply not able to operate correctly with a non-floating stator.

Failure: Blown Diode or FET in Rectifier/Regulator-

In case one of the diodes (or one of the FETs if such are used instead of diodes) in the rectifier/regulator has been blown, only two of the three windings will have to deliver all the required power, with consequent overheating of the windings and a fried stator as result.
By constructing a break-out connector with 3 small resistors e.g. 0.1 Ohm each in series with the stator outputs, it is possible with a simple AC voltmeter to verify proper symmetrical current load on all three windings."

http://www.fireblader.dk/i_files/cbr1000rr/mc032.htm

Last edited by invader; 12-10-2012 at 08:11 AM.
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post #124 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-10-2012, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RockyMoto View Post


Seriously, I learn a lot about this bike on this site too.

I'm curious...would you (or others) explain how this malady occurred? I mean, did you just go to start your bike one day and nothing, took it to the shop and they diagnosed it? Did it crap out while riding? Were there any "signs" and "signals" before the failure? I ask because my V is closing in on 38,000 miles...I am covered for the next 2 1/2 years under warranty, so I am not particularly worried, but I just want to have "my head up" (if possible).


What Invader is trying to say is electronic devices stay alive by holding in smoke. The moment they give up their smoke, the game is over.

here's your proof...................

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post #125 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-10-2012, 05:21 PM
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What Invader is trying to say is electronic devices stay alive by holding in smoke. The moment they give up their smoke, the game is over.
Sometimes you can replace the smoke. I assume that Kawasaki doesn't mention that fact in order to increase sales of stators...

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10622

http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/smoke.htm

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post #126 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-10-2012, 06:15 PM
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Well I ordered the Compu-fire R/R from my local dealer. He quoted me somewhere in the ballpark of $170ish. The Stator is on it's way to CUSTOM REWIND in Alabama to get rewound. I'm feeling better now that the ball is rolling.

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post #127 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 02:29 PM
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Wow, I just got off the phone from Compufire. I spoke w/one of their engineers, [his name was Ian]. I faxed him the wiring diagram of our charging system. He played the liability card on me and said that he does not recommend using their Reg/Rect on our bike. He said that this unit was specifically designed for a direct replacement for Harley Davidson charging sys.
I responded that I was expecting no accountability, but just some general guidelines. I told him that others were using their Series Reg/Rect w/no issues other than that they were bleeding to ground when sitting for extended periods.
He did not comment on this, even when prodded twice. He did mention that he has heard of some of the incidents of folks soldering the connections together and highly recommended against it. He said that Compufire had chosen multi-strand wire because that current flows on the outside of each strand and a soldered connection impedes proper current flow. He said only properly crimped connections are recommended. I didnít banter w/him, but I donít really understand his logic. Now there is good reason for this, Iím not an expert in his field.
I asked him if he would comment or recommend a single pole switch to break the ground circuit. He said he would rather not comment, but said that nothing short of a marine grade high current battery cut-off switch will do. Something that will handle the minimum of 40Amps.
So now I have cold feet. The part has already been ordered, and itís on its way.
Can someone give me some encouragement? I could use some right about now.
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post #128 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 04:05 PM
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Can someone give me some encouragement? I could use some right about now.
I can only say (due to liability reasons) , that I installed said Comp-U-far and it has performed to my (meager) expectations in excess of 20000 miles. I put it on at less than 3000 miles as a purely preventative measure prior to long ride to Mexico and back. I soldered and crimped my connections. I do have a larger than desirable battery discharge rate but I don't let mine sit for long. When the bike is idle for a few days I put it on a tender. I'm happy so far.
Good luck.
OG
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post #129 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 06:59 PM
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You're worried about your switch? You haven't told us what its current rating is... Maximum alternator output is 24 amps, 14 volts @ 5000 rpm (336 watts), so a 30 amp switch should be fine.

I left the stock connector on the R/R wires, and just twisted and soldered the Compufire wires onto it. I can always keep the Compufire to use on my next new motorcycle, and reinstall stock R/R on the Versys for when I sell it.

Others have tried reasoning with the Compufire guys before, with the same results. What the hell are you worried about?

Last edited by invader; 12-12-2012 at 07:46 PM.
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post #130 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 11:35 PM
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Wow,Compufire had chosen multi-strand wire because that current flows on the outside of each strand and a soldered connection impedes proper current flow. He said only properly crimped connections are recommended. I could use some right about now.
Well that"s the first time I ever heard that, did you know that some manufacturers of high current equipment crimp and solder their connections, I work on this every day, most of it is water cooled and I am dealing with thousands of amps.
As to traveling on the surface, it is more to do with AC high voltage and AC higher frequencies----------------NOT DC. If you want to read more detail >
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect

I soldered all my connections except the ground, which extends up to my relay, the reason being that I could remove the compu-fire and plug the original regulator back into service.

As to switches, the one you picked will be fine, if you are worried, look for a two pole of that version, and parallel the contacts, in fact you could get a 2 pole 20 amp and parallel it = 40 amp.

And if it makes you feel any better, I called them too, absolutely no help , almost sounded like somebody else was making them for them. I asked if it was possible to bring the regulator input out as a separate wire, it is currently attached to the positive output. Right away he cautioned this was made for Harleys and Hondas, and he recommended not to use it. I guess saying not to use it is better than saying you have no clue, and just answer the phone for basic non technical questions.
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post #131 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 11:40 PM
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You're worried about your switch? You haven't told us what its current rating is... Maximum alternator output is 24 amps, 14 volts @ 5000 rpm (336 watts), so a 30 amp switch should be fine.

I left the stock connector on the R/R wires, and just twisted and soldered the Compufire wires onto it. I can always keep the Compufire to use on my next new motorcycle, and reinstall stock R/R on the Versys for when I sell it.

Others have tried reasoning with the Compufire guys before, with the same results. What the hell are you worried about?
Should have read your post, could have saved some typing---------couldn't have said it better--------really wonder how some people stay in business, when you contact customer support and that's what you get.
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post #132 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-13-2012, 09:59 AM
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Yeah this movement from soldering to crimping is something that passed me buy.
I mean I was always aware of crimping as I knew it as quick and cheap.

Using this stuff..............




Useing these methods and tools was always a shortcut w/reduction in quality for me so I always soldered as I was taught years ago.

But What I was not aware of, that I have just been turned on to from yesterdays research is that soldering has been abandoned by almost every industry.

Aerospace
Aviation
Professional racing
Telecommunications

the list goes on.

Just type in "Solder vs Crimp" into a search engine and see what I've been reading.

Of course the tools and hardware are different than I knew of. For example just a mediocre crimp pliers start around $200. This one below is about $400 from Klein.



Here's just one of the pieces that I have read. Please read, for me it was revealing.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/wire_termination
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post #133 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-13-2012, 10:27 AM
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Sounds like soldering, like many things, is going the way of handwritten letters sent through the mail.

Holy cow! $400 for a crimping tool - mindblowing. But after reading that article it does make sense to have a 'certified' crimper for aviation work.

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post #134 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-13-2012, 12:24 PM
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You don't have to pay $400 for a decent ratchet crimper. But don't use those cheap insulated terminals. Use open barrel connectors that are correct for the wire size and a piece of shrink tubing for an insulator.

Eastern Beaver has all kinds of wiring parts for Motorcycles.

Here's a nice crimp tool with interchangeable dies that'll do just about everything: http://www.amazon.com/Tool-Aid-18960-Racheting-Terminal/dp/B006O1Y1FY/ref=sr_1_15?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1355418423&sr=1-15&keywords=crimper

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post #135 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-13-2012, 08:32 PM
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Several reasons for crimping over soldering, soldering requires special tools and the right solder, also requires a certain amount of skill and preparation, I have seen cold solder joints, aslo seen were somebody used acid core flux on solder on control install. I have a T&B crimper and a set of Ideal wire stripper crimpers.

What I did was solder my connections to the existing harness, and staggered the connections, so the connections were 3/4 of a inch apart vertically, and taped my OEM plug for the regulator. The second, and most important, and this applies to everything including crimps, I increased the surface area of my connections, that is the wire striped was 3/4 of a inch long, the harness conductor insulation was striped about 3/8 of a inch, so I got about three wraps around the harness conductor, before I solder it.An increase in surface area translates into a increase in conductivity.

I use the T&B on both insulated and non insulated, I also have a crimper for insulated 10 gauge crimps on my Klein linesman pliers.I can honestly say that the ring of the crimp will break before you pull the wire out.
If you have the time and knowledge, I can honestly say my solder connection is superior to almost any crimp, the exception is when you get into larger wire sizes.

At one time the standard for crimping was to use a set of dies and hydraulic crimper specific to the wire and crimp, aluminum and copper. In both cases, a proper crimp using a Burndy tool would show the die number on the crimp, if the die number didn't show, that was a indication of a faulty crimper. In large wire sizes, there are long barrel and short barrel crimps, it is important that the wire is free of oxide, that applies to soldering as well.


As to crimpers, they now make die less crimpers, about twice as fast as hydraulic, and much cheaper-------------another subject no Biker ever needs to worry about. JMHO

Last edited by onewizard; 12-13-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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post #136 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-18-2012, 06:10 PM
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You're worried about your switch? You haven't told us what its current rating is... Maximum alternator output is 24 amps, 14 volts @ 5000 rpm (336 watts), so a 30 amp switch should be fine.

I left the stock connector on the R/R wires, and just twisted and soldered the Compufire wires onto it. I can always keep the Compufire to use on my next new motorcycle, and reinstall stock R/R on the Versys for when I sell it.

Others have tried reasoning with the Compufire guys before, with the same results. What the hell are you worried about?
I somehow overlooked you post Invader. I apologize.

To answer your question about the switch is I'm not using one. I let the bike sit for more than one day only a small handful of times a year. And when I do It's in my garage on a Battery Tender Plus. So I'm just installing a 30 AMP waterproof fuse to ground. It's one that's been sitting in my elec box for years unused.






If I didn't have it I would buy one like this and route it near the rest of them in the battery tray area. Someone here said that there's one just like this that comes in the box w/unit anyhow. Mine should arrive any day now.




Last edited by Mountain Man; 12-18-2012 at 07:30 PM.
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post #137 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-18-2012, 10:27 PM
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I somehow overlooked you post Invader. I apologize.

To answer your question about the switch is I'm not using one. I let the bike sit for more than one day only a small handful of times a year. And when I do It's in my garage on a Battery Tender Plus. So I'm just installing a 30 AMP waterproof fuse to ground. It's one that's been sitting in my elec box for years unused.





If I didn't have it I would buy one like this and route it near the rest of them in the battery tray area. Someone here said that there's one just like this that comes in the box w/unit anyhow. Mine should arrive any day now.



So if you want to disconnect, you pull the fuse, just about as simple as a male and female stakon. I am going on 5 years on the oem battery, I have worked with many types and styles of batteries over the last 40 years, what is important is not to overcharge or cook the battery, continuous charging generally leads to evaporation. The most promising are the AGM batteries.If I had a AGM battery I wouldn't care about the regulator draining the battery.

I am not a fan of battery tenders, if you have a really good and reliable one , I would be interested in the make and what you paid for it.
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post #138 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-18-2012, 11:54 PM
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The original Yuasa battery does have AGM seperators... It is important to stop charging AGM batteries when it reaches 14.4 volts charging voltage, as are AGM battery chargers programmed. I just put it on an automatic charger set at 2 amps until it reaches 14.4V. The charging amperage is automatically matched to battery's state of charge and gradually reduced as battery charges up.
Battery sulfation is faster when discharged. The desulfator I got for $26 works great. It shows battery voltage, then starts desufating until battery voltage drops to about 11.5V. It also works well while charging.

Last edited by invader; 12-19-2012 at 02:32 AM.
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post #139 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-19-2012, 07:12 AM
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I am not a fan of battery tenders, if you have a really good and reliable one , I would be interested in the make and what you paid for it.
Your run of the mill Deltran Battery Tender Plus. 1.25A till it senses to relax. As far as reliabiliy, it did fail a few years back. I sent it back to Deltran, and they sent me a new one free of charge. Other than that I've been happy w/it. I usually get around that 5yr life out of my batteries, so I guess I'm not doing anything wrong.

Stators, now that's another story.

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post #140 of 495 (permalink) Old 12-19-2012, 09:17 AM
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I am not a fan of battery tenders, if you have a really good and reliable one , I would be interested in the make and what you paid for it.

To my knowledge, CTEK chargers are very good, if not the best.
I use this one for the Versys for about a year.
My '07. stock battery was getting weak and it struggled to fire up after a few days of sitting.
Now I keep it on the charger almost all the time and bike starts like dynamite (even after a 4-5 days off the charger).

Here's some reading about the chargers:
http://www.webbikeworld.com/r3/motor...y-chargers.htm


As far as the stators go, I plan to thoroughly check my Versys this spring for any sings of electrical fault. At about 25,000km (and one drop on the stator cover) it's in the risk zone.


Thank you everybody for contributing and for the dose of paranoia.

Last edited by Ivan V; 12-19-2012 at 09:19 AM.
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