Burnt Stator/ Stator Testing - Page 9 - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #161 of 401 (permalink) Old 07-06-2014, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post



Check some of the following posts, read through some of my posts, detail is in there someplace;

Burnt Stator/ Stator Testing

re: Stator issues?
The Super Series Kit SH775 regulator has the same footprint as oem and bolts right in so rather than run wires back to the stator plug by the tps, I cut off the oem r/r plug and wired the supplied pigtail to the 3 stator wires, leaving the headlight trigger intact in the harness. I isolated the positive and negative wires along with the brown ign wire and ran the supplied output pigtail direct to the battery as per supplied instructions. There is a 25ma drain checked across 30 amp maxi fuse connections, adding a 30 amp relay triggered off the headlight connects and disconnects the r/r output automatically and the headlight acts normally. I could have used a switch but I didn't want to forget the switch and end up with a dead battery. Also this new r/r runs way cooler than the oem, it gets warm but not hot like the oem did.
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Last edited by onewizard; 12-03-2016 at 12:27 PM.
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post #162 of 401 (permalink) Old 07-07-2014, 11:06 PM
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When I have more time I will post some extensive detail about the way the starter circuit relay locks out the headlight relay until released. Couple things, the wire white with blue tracer ( positive wire from regulator) that you no longer use is connected to a common waterproof joint and then goes to the main 30 amp fuse and is live all the time ( you mentioned you isolated it). I assume you have installed the fuse that came with the new regulator," maxi fuse connections".

I have two suspicions, first test is to disconnect your positive wire from the regulator at the battery and isolate so that you don't short out your output if it touches ground during this test, turn your key to on, headlight should be off, start bike, headlight should come on only once running. If this happens, chances are that the regulator is feeding back through to the headlight relay when you have the positive connected. You only need to switch the positive wire, negative should go to ground.

I just re read your post, and yes indeed the regulator is feeding back, glad you found a solution, this will also eliminate the 25 ma drain on the battery by switching the positive regulator output

Last edited by onewizard; 07-07-2014 at 11:19 PM.
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post #163 of 401 (permalink) Old 07-09-2014, 09:25 PM
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As Of 2015 I solved the leakage Problem which was the headlight relay coil circuit, hard to believe but the tap from the 3 phase output is buried in the harness that goes to pin 2 of the headlight relay , a diode is contained inside the relay to recitfy the AC, electronically it is a case once you are producing AC the motor must be running, this latches in the relay, if you were to stall the motor the headlight would remain on as the relay is latched to the 12 volt supply. To read more **go to Polaris Regulator Install by me .

I have left all the valuable posts beyond this post to remain as a story on how I solved it and all the people involved in getting there.



Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
You mean there's a way to prevent the Compufire series type R/R as well, from causing a 25 mA drain without switch or relay, or disconnecting battery?
Short answer "No" Well as of 2015 the answer is YES look under Polaris Regulator Install by me Onewizard

I have explained this before but it never hurts to understand how something works. Both these after market regulators are made for Harleys and similar were the key switch disconnects the battery from the regulator .

The Versys uses the brown wire keyed to the regulator which is actually the control circuit, if you had the old regulator back in operation, you could measure the current on the brown wire, you would find somewere in the range of 15 to 30 milliamp.

Compufire and others have decided to connect this control circuit internally and eliminate one external wire, if these regulators were made in the US, I am sure that if you had 10 or more interested people, they would bring that connection out. I inquired after I discovered the problem on my install of the Compufire regulator, the distributor said that he very much doubted that it would be possible, I left it at that since I have a work around with my relays.

One option would be to connect from the regulator output fuse to both the headlight wire and also to a 30 amp rectifier bridge, from the bridge to the battery. You will end up with a loss at full power of around 10 watt, the battery voltage may be closer to 13.9 at full power due to voltage drop across the rectifier and losses in the lighting circuit. The lighting circuit is designed for 10 amp maximum, there is a risk of burning up your headlight wiring harness. For me I used 2 relays in parallel, came to under $20 complete with harness and sockets, used the tail light to drive the relay circuit, been working for 2 years no problem.
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Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2016 at 08:05 AM.
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post #164 of 401 (permalink) Old 07-10-2014, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by lowflyer43 View Post
The Super Series Kit SH775.
Why not wire it the same way as the original? The trigger wire goes to any one stator wire, and you use the original harness wires for the output. Seems like a lot of messing around just to be able to run a wire direct to the + battery terminal.

In the original regulator, the trigger wire is connected to a stator wire internally, so it makes no difference if it's connected externally. This is shown in the schematic diagram in the shop manual.

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Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2016 at 07:55 AM.
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post #165 of 401 (permalink) Old 07-10-2014, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
Why not wire it shop manual.
No. You can't connect the ignition's 12V brown trigger wire to one of the stator's live output wires... Look at testing procedures on pages 521 and 522 (16-34) in the 2007 service manual. Also, the lines don't connect in the wiring diagram. They overlap each other before the connector. The R/R's internal circuitry is not shown.

Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2016 at 07:56 AM.
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post #166 of 401 (permalink) Old 07-19-2014, 02:34 PM
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Shindengen R/R Isolation Relay

When you add a isolation relay to the Shindengen R/R output wire and try to get the relay trigger off the headlight you run into a problem. The regulator uncouples the stator and the headlight circuit doesn't receive the pulse needed to energize the headlight and in turn the relay in the R/R output wire.
The workaround is to change to a spdt relay like CarQuest 83162, connect the output from the R/R to terminal 30, the battery to terminal 87. The spdt relay has a terminal 87a, this needs switched 12volts positive, (I tapped into the plate lamp red wire, I added a blocking diode just in case, stripe towards terminal 87a). A ground wire to terminal 85 and a power wire tapped from the blue/yellow lowbeam headlamp wire to terminal 86.
Now when you turn on the key and the running lamps come on the R/R is temporarily powered thru terminal 87a and latches the stator. Press start and the headlight circuit senses stator output as it normally would and turns on the headlight which turns on the spdt relay disconnecting 87a and connecting 87 and normal charging begins. I could have run the brown wire to terminal 87a and got the same result but it was sealed and bundled and this way was easier. This works for the Shindengen R/R and works automatically, I don't know if it will work with the Compufire system.
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post #167 of 401 (permalink) Old 07-19-2014, 04:50 PM
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When you add a isolation relay.
not able to find the layout of that relay, and I am totally confused as to your connections. Treminal 85 is ground, is this the relay coil wire?hat is the other coil wire number. I then need to no what is relay contact common, what is normally open number, and what is normally closed number. As to why your original circuit didn't work, Compufire switches only the positive pulses, so only uses 3 SCR'S on the positive and uses 3 diodes for the negative, yours uses 6 SCR'S on a 3 phase bridge . Problem is that the relay #2 headlight relay needs a return path for the positive pulse from the stator output through the positive diode of relay #2 to ground, it does this on the Compufire through the negative diodes.

Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2016 at 08:07 AM.
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post #168 of 401 (permalink) Old 07-19-2014, 06:58 PM
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I am so glad i didn't buy a Compufire, the Shindengen bolts directly in and by adding this relay or one like it you solve the drain problem.... the relay coil terms are 85 and 86, common is 30, normally closed is 87a, normally open is 87.
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post #169 of 401 (permalink) Old 07-19-2014, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lowflyer43 View Post
I am so glad i didn't buy a Compufire, the Shindengen bolts directly in and by adding this relay or one like it you solve the drain problem.... the relay coil terms are 85 and 86, common is 30, normally closed is 87a, normally open is 87.
I drew it out, and your spot on, yes the brown wire would have worked and like you said it was already tucked away.The diode will prevent burning up the tail light wiring should the coil circuit fail while the bike continues to run.
As to compufire, the only problem was cured by installing a SPST relay, and yes it doesn't fit as well, plus your's appears cheaper in price. So that would be the way I would go if my Compufire fails, by the way you must be involved in the electrical industry, fine job of figuring it out.

As of 2015 RELAY NO LONGER NEEDED See Polaris Regulator Install

Last edited by onewizard; 12-03-2016 at 12:33 PM.
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post #170 of 401 (permalink) Old 07-20-2014, 04:18 PM
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THIS IS THE HEADLIGHT CIRCUIT SHOWING THE DIODE


This is for a Ninja 250, but is typical.
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Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2016 at 09:37 AM.
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post #171 of 401 (permalink) Old 08-19-2014, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lowflyer43 View Post
I installed a new stator from Ricks, and a new series r/r from Roadstercycle.
-Looks like I am losing it as Invader has corrected me----
---
-------I understand the Shindengen site and what I would call a series regulator they refer to as a Three Phase open regulator using 6 thyristors---they also have a Short Fet regulator which is a shunt style , not sure why you would want that---after doing a search on several forums it would appear this open regulator is a SH775, rated at 35 amps maximum. The price seems to be going up as some posted for under $70, but that was 2011-----------
As lowflyer has posted it has the same footprint as OEM and the cooling fins are in the correct direction, so time will tell how these work out, it is a wonder why they haven't found a direct distributor. Would also be nice if they brought out the control circuit
I don't know of anyone on this forum that has had a regulator fail with a good stator, but PLENTY of burnt stators , just saw another burnt one today--------------







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post #172 of 401 (permalink) Old 08-19-2014, 09:40 PM
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Actually, you can select between Shindengen's FH020AA shunt type three-phase MOSFET "short FET" regulator, or the new SH775 series type three-phase "open" regulator.

http://roadstercycle.com/


FH020AA Three-Phase Short FET Regulator (Shunt Type)



SH775 Three-Phase Open Regulator (Series Type)



https://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_e/electro/reg.html

Last edited by invader; 08-19-2014 at 10:01 PM.
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post #173 of 401 (permalink) Old 08-20-2014, 09:09 AM
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Newest club member. New stator from RMStator on order. Now to sort out which way to go on the R/R. Mine is still ok, but it appears to be inevitable that the new stator will eventually fail too. Also getting a Heads Up voltage monitor so I can see the next imminent failure coming my way.

A big thanks to Onewizard for your assistance to this electrical moron.

Please, no welcomes to the club.
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post #174 of 401 (permalink) Old 08-20-2014, 09:32 AM
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Newest club member. New stator from RMStator on order. Now to sort out which way to go on the R/R. Mine is still ok, but it appears to be inevitable that the new stator will eventually fail too. Also getting a Heads Up voltage monitor so I can see the next imminent failure coming my way.

A big thanks to Onewizard for your assistance to this electrical moron.

Please, no welcomes to the club.
what would be neat is for Kawasaki to install this SH 775 regulator as standard equipement Fat chance that will ever happen
My 2015 has the same antique regulator, as of Dec.2016 the 4012941 Polaris regulator almost doubled in price!!

Last edited by onewizard; 12-03-2016 at 12:43 PM.
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post #175 of 401 (permalink) Old 08-20-2014, 10:00 AM
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Now if someone with skills (I suck at paint) could draw out the two diagrams and add them to this thread, everyone could solve the issue and enjoy their ride and not have the stator beast lurking around the next curve. And yes I have been involved in making electrical components work where they were not designed to be.
My interest is up, even though I have a Compufire regulator, I am interested to see to what degree Shindengen went in the design of the SH775

What I need is measurements with a digital meter to two decimal places, measured at the battery;
1--measure at idle switching high beam on for several minutes then off, note if any fluctuation and what the values were
2---accelerate momentarily to 3000 or 4000 rpm, note if any changes , voltage should be 14.2VDC
3--hold at 3000 rpm and momentarily turn high beam on and off, note changes
4---accelerate to 5000 rpm and back to idle, note what the meter is reading at 5000 ----that is , is it steady or fluctuating

Found more test results, http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-trip...upgrade-2.html
a warning about losing regulation on Triumph 600-4, which has a 14500 red line

Also a little confusion, searching on Ebay for polaris 4012941, comes up as a Mosfet regulator, possibly people that are ill informed

Last edited by onewizard; 08-20-2014 at 10:53 AM.
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post #176 of 401 (permalink) Old 08-20-2014, 01:14 PM
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Actually, you can select between Shindengen's FH020AA shunt type three-phase MOSFET "short FET" regulator, or the new SH775 series type three-phase "open" regulator.
The SH775 uses 6 SCR's to turn the stator windings on and off instead of dumping them to ground like the FH020AA does. Much better idea.

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Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2016 at 08:11 AM.
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post #177 of 401 (permalink) Old 08-25-2014, 07:01 PM
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I am so glad i didn't buy a Compufire, the Shindengen bolts directly in and by adding this relay or one like it you solve the drain problem.... the relay coil terms are 85 and 86, common is 30, normally closed is 87a, normally open is 87.
I have a special request, as I just received a OEM fried stator and have some startling results as to why they are failing. Before I get into that I have been on several forums were some people have posted SH775 regulator failure and also cases of losing control of regulation. The problem is all these postings are for other makes of bikes, for now I only care about the Versys.

Couple tests, all reference is to volts DC at the battery.( I had a couple different tests in post 279, but have had a chance to test a RM stator, so now my test is more specific to the SH775 )
1 ---measure with bike @ 1400 RPM & low beam on ( motor at temperature and battery has a full charge on it except for starting for this test)
2 ----@ 1400 RPM and high beam on ( let me know if you are running 55W or 65W bulbs)
3------with high beam on @ 5000 RPM 30 seconds to a minute then accellerate to 8000 RPM long enough to see if voltage is stable, drop to idle and switch to low beam---thats it.

Thanks in advance

And when I get all the results back I will post why these stators are failing, and it isn't just the regulator that is causing this, but the regulator is a contributing factor, and it is the luck of the draw, only select O.E.M.stators will fail-----------secondly from what I know, ALL after market stators are prone to fail if OEM regulators are left in place.


Last edited by onewizard; 08-25-2014 at 07:07 PM.
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post #178 of 401 (permalink) Old 08-25-2014, 09:20 PM
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Fascinating research, onewizard.
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post #179 of 401 (permalink) Old 08-25-2014, 11:22 PM
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STATOR WINDING INFORMATION / CAUSES


************************************************** ************

Well I am going to start with a little at a time so no confusion.What I found on OEM stator;
It is wound with 18 gauge magnet wire , no idea as to temperature rating but I doubt it is class H http://www.superioressex.com/uploade...ss-ratings.pdf. so--------------it is Delta connected, 18 gauge is 1624 circular mils, as a rule of thumb we used 250 cm per ampere where concern of insulation breakdown in a high heat area, that was 35 years ago, present day magnet wire can easily run at 100'C,when I say that, electric motor ratings have a temperature rise rating, typical T frame motors coming out now have a 80'C rise rating. What this means is in a 30'C ambient temperature the motor outside shell could be 110'C at full load, so you could easily boil water on the motor---------and it is designed to operate like that-----if there is interest I could go further, however, like anything, the higher the temperature the shorter the lifespan of the equipment. They have much higher classes of insulation now, class C will be cheaper than H.

So OEM is connected Delta, that is 2 #18 gauge wires per line ( 18 is 1624 cm) = 3248 cm divided by 16 amp AC max = 203 cm per amp.AC 16 x 1.73 x 12 volts = 332 Watts

Where I have a problem is some after market stators have converted to a Y connection, mathematically the turns per pole will be the delta turns divided by root 3 ( 1.73) = Y turns. As a example OEM is roughly 44 turns of 18 gauge wire connected Delta, a Y connected would be 25 turns per pole.

Now you need to convert the wire size , calculated is 2810 which is 15.5 gauge , I would use 15 gauge which is 3248 cm, basically what we had on OEM Delta.
This is were I have a problem, after market winds Y connected, but uses the same delta wire gauge of 18, this calculates to 101 cm per amp. So if you were to put a series regulator in, average current is 8 amp per phase and magically you are back to 202 cm per ampere.

So what I plan is to do a separate post with pictures as to OEM and RM stator ( I have emailed them and judging by the immediate response, they aren't interested in anything I have to say).

Short version of OEM failure is mistakes were made in one of the phase connections, I can't prove if line 2 was the same because both wires were burnt off / broken and a third jumper wire was also broken in the same pole----all one big burned mess. What they did is all the starts and finishes for each pole crossed over each other at the base of the pole piece, as well the jumpers from each pole were all buried at the base of the pole, to reduce congestion they brought the six wires around the back of the poles to make connections, all done within 3 poles.

What happened is one of the magnet wires from pole# 5 was buried in pole #1 along with pole #1 , what happened is the wrong 2 wires were joined.So it was a 2 phase delta connection, and the regulator probably rarely shunted any power.

Last edited by onewizard; 12-07-2016 at 11:29 AM.
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post #180 of 401 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 08:06 AM
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Thanks again for your help onewizard. It was certainly interesting to see so many meters hooked up to my V with the new RMstator. Glad that you know what's what and look forward to hearing your verdict on what R/R will be best for the RMstator.

About the only thing that I understood was seeing the charred black wiring harness on my OEM stator and realizing that there was little wonder that it failed.

Hopefully we will all find a better combination to ensure that we don't get stranded by stator failure.

My Heads Up voltage monitor is on order. At least I will have advance warning if it happens again, I hate seeing my bike brought home in the back of a truck .
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