Burnt Stator/ Stator Testing - Page 7 - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #121 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-02-2013, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Now the 3 AC stator leads reach the R/R leads w/length to spare and instead of cramped access, all the connections are right there near the starter relay and main fuse. The're now out of the way of a moving shock and rear wheel w/the mud and water that would otherwise bombard the wires/connections.

Using a small battery charger as Wizzard suggested, I found the tap to the headlight relay in the
[now capped connector that used to join the stator leads to the OEM harness.
I ran a short extension from it, to the area where the AC wires will splice. I cut the Weatherpack connector
off because a direct splice is better than a friction splice. Besides I have enough wire to be able to change these parts out w/o running out of length.

I had to go to the Inlaw's for pork n kraut New Year's dinner so the rest of the install w/have to wait till I get the chance to get back to it.

I feel pretty good about the install, and would not of w/o the coaching from onewizzard, Olegeezer, Invader, and others one this forum and others.
I thank you for your guidance.

When I get a chance I'll take some pics and post them.
Not sure if I am understanding about cutting off the connector, but, if this is the one from the stator, and if you have a couple inches of wire on the connector, you could join all three together then run a single extension down to were you plan on splicing the stator wires, plug the other end back into the OEM harness, only one wire is active as far as the headlight goes, but the other two will go no where.

Like I said, it is a lot easier debugging someone elses work, excellent idea about turning the regulator, so the wire faces out? May need to wait for Pics.

As to splicing , to be honest, I would use Ideal wire nuts http://www.idealindustries.com/produ...on/twister.jsp, then tape them, this will allow a simple connection that is easily taken apart. If you are really concerned, first wrap all three with a light wrap of electrical tape, sticky side out, then take a small sandwich zip lock bag, pump a bit of silicone caulking into it , slide that over the joint , twist tie it, once cured you have a waterproof joint. To remove, take a utility knife, cut vertically, the whole assembly will come off ( electrical tape sticky out is to prevent silicone from sticking to wire connectors and wires)

Are you planning on using a relay?

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post #122 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 06:51 AM
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Hi there 'onewizard".... what my MC sparky said was the reason for the flairing was that in volume manufacturing when you by them from Internet sites etc.. what they use is a heavy guage wire to quickly make up the windings on each of the poles and it's cheaper to do and quicker to make hence the price to the customer... you'd think that the heavier guage is good - wrong! Carl said they use a much thinner guage copper wire so that they can get more windings on each of the poles (I think there are 5 or 6? around the unit) and when they soak them in the lacquer for a minium of 24 hours, it then creates a better soak and better quality product.... BETTA Bikes located here in Hackam (down south of the City of) Adelaide - South Australia and do most of the all Stator rewindings here in Australia for the Motorcycle dealerships for their customers... They have never had one ever fail or returned and guarantee them for the life of the bike! Carl said to me that if you think we Versysirians are kinda not happy.... they have done HEAPS from the Trium** Triples!!! (so their owners aren't too happy too!) they charge $300 to do up mine and if this one fails that I have now - I'll get it done by them.. just ashame I didn't know that they did them other than panicing and buying off the net because of the price my daughter quoted me..... thanks hope this helps somehow.... catchya.. Andreas
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post #123 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 07:30 PM
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Hi there 'onewizard".... catchya.. Andreas
First, unless you know for sure that Kawasaki made a mistake in the number of turns, you don't increase or decrease the turns.

Next, the heavier the gauge the less resistance and less voltage drop = lost energy. You can use different temperature ratings of magnet wire, the higher the temp usually means thicker insulation. I prefer class H (180'C), and heavy , which is the coating thickness( around .0015 to .003 of a inch).

The next thing I use to do was preheat the finished stator, this removes any moisture trapped in the laminations, insulation etc., most rewind shops won't do this because it thins the dip and also cause the solvent to evaporate.

The more professional rewind shops have a vacuum dip tank, and my preference would be a epoxy dip, keep in mind you want the thinnest coat for heat transfer,and strongest coat to prevent the magnet wire from vibrating and breaking down.

A couple things happen when you increase wire size, one , with exactly the same number of turns, the outside turns are going to be further from the core. Second, you reach a point were there isn't enough room to get all the turns onto the pole piece.

You mention smaller wire size, what can be done is wind with as a example a equivalent to a single 10 gauge , would be two 14 gauge wires ( which would be harder than a 14 gauge), several problems come up with this method, say you had 20 turns of the 10 gauge, using the 14 gauge you will have 40 wires, and since you have 20 additional wires, you have added the insulation thickness of the 20, the second problem is when winding two in hand, there is a increased risk of cross overs between turns ( potential spots for shorted turns)
I said it before, if time permits I may try and find out what the output voltage is AC , compared to the actual DC current load and DC voltage output voltage.


As to how long it soaks, isn't as important as how it is wound. I use to preheat for 1 hour at 200'F, then dip it and soak for 1 hour in epoxy varnish, take it out and let it drip for 10 minutes then bake it for I think 6 hours--------been a long time about 35 years, they have some really good magnet wire available now.

$300 , are they saying once they do it , that it will never fail?
Bottom line, were you live it costs almost as much to ship as it does to rewind, so local is good.

Last edited by onewizard; Today at 12:07 PM.
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post #124 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 10:53 PM
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Ok, the Install is finished. All three AC wires are spliced w/the headlight tap right here.

[IMG][/IMG]



Everything is shrink wrapped and sheathed in plastic conduit and zipped tied. There are no friction connectors anywhere on the install, just direct splicing.

The Positive wire is now equipped w/a sealed Mertir-pack style fuse holder that is loaded w/a 30 AMP fuse. You can see it on top of the battery. The one that came w/the Compufire was not as nice. It was not waterproof.




The Neg wire is grounded on the other side of the sub frame ground location.




The original connector that connected to the original R/R is sealed off, pulled up into the cavity between the engine and air box and secured.

The 3 termanal connector that originally mated to the stator is cut off and 2 of the 3 wires are terminated w/these......



And the 3rd one is the headlight relay tap. It's extended and routed through a length of Hi temp vacuum line, and then it is covered w/plastic conduit. You can see it the center of the below pic.



Before I spliced any of the Stator leads I measured VAC at A-B, A-C, B-C. At 4000 RPM I measured just uround 48 VAC at each.

With everything completed I measured 14.37 VDC at the battery terminals at high idle. [apx 1500 RPM] I had no time to get a reading at low idle /operating temperature cause I didn't want to open my garage door to warm it up.

I'm happy w/that.

It's late so I'm done for tonight. Tomorrow I'll test for any parasitic draw and post up my findings. If I have any I'll prolly just fuse the ground as I mentioned.

BTW, what is a good "resting voltage" in a cold garage. I won't flinch to replace the battery if needed.

Last edited by onewizard; Today at 11:25 AM.
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post #125 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 05:12 PM
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Ok, the Install is finished.
First let me say a awesome write up, if you go towards the foot brake side of your bike, just on the other side of your wire strippers, you will find the frame ground, ECU, tail light signal light etc. is connected at this point.

If you remove your ground and put your ammeter in series, you should get around 24 milliamp, if you check at the battery positive it will be around 27 milliamp ( ECU draws around 1 to 3 milliamp, varying over time) at this rate your 10 amp hour battery will be half dead in 7 days or totally dead in 15 days.

My garage is close to 5'C now, battery is going on 6 years, I charge it every two months, for six hours, in the winter, right now it measures 12.25 VDC, been almost a month since last charge ( I have a relay in series with regulator ground).

Your install looks awesome

Last edited by onewizard; 12-03-2016 at 11:34 AM.
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post #126 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 06:47 PM
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Please Note the update in regards to leakage current in the second photo, updated Dec. 2016 Onewizard



Quote:
QUOTE=onewizard;225340]First let me say a awesome write up, if you go towards the foot brake side of your bike, just on the other side of your wire strippers, you will find the frame ground, ECU, tail light signal light etc. is connected at this point.
Yes, Every year I take that one apart and scuff it and the steel it contacts w/emery cloth to keep good ground flow. I put it on the opposite side to balance out the universe.



Quote:
If you remove your ground and put your ammeter in series, you should get around 24 milliamp, if you check at the battery positive it will be around 27 milliamp ( ECU draws around 1 to 3 milliamp, varying over time) at this rate your 10 amp hour battery will be half dead in 7 days or totally dead in 15 days.
I just went down and measured the parasitic draw.

1st w/the R/R fuse out..........



And now w/the fuse in........



As soon as touch the neg batt terminal and the main ground cable w/the meter probes I hear something in the front of the bike energize and the meter spikes to 64.00 MA and then w/in a second it settles to these 2 above readings.

This current /description of something in front, is in actual fact the headlight relay energising through the series regulator, discovered by me in 2015. The changes needed are under Polaris Regulator Install **Onewizard




Quote:
My garage is close to 5'C now, battery is going on 6 years, I charge it every two months, for six hours, in the winter, right now it measures 12.25 VDC, been almost a month since last charge ( I have a relay in series with regulator ground).

Since I'm going the low tech option for now, and addressing the draw issue w/just pulling the fuse, would it be OK just to control it w/the R/R positive fuse that's already installed?

I can't see a need to put a fuse on the R/R ground if I'm doing the same thing upstream. [so to speak]


Quote:
Your install looks awesome


It was your guidance that contributed to the success, and I'm thankful for your help.



Now to evaluate the condition of my battery.

The Battery tender has been on since I left it last night. I removed it a few minutes ago and I performed a load test on it w/this [My garage toaster]and it measured somewhere between 9 1/2-10 volts after a 15 second dwell.

But that was might be kinda inconclusive since it was fresh off the charger. Now I'll have to bring it back up and then rest it again to get a more accurate test at a "rested voltage" I'll post up my readings.
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Last edited by onewizard; 12-03-2016 at 11:41 AM.
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post #127 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 08:38 PM
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Yes, I'll post up my readings.
I am kind of glad that I never ever got around to taking pictures of my install, because after my install and all the changes that came later, and as a result of that, coaching your install has produced a far easier and superior install. I really like the two decimal place Greenlee, although all my stuff is either Fluke, Tektronixs, or Simpson.

Pulling the 30 amp solution is the simple fix, I don't have that option because I tied my positive into the OEM harness, once I discovered the problem, I didn't feel like taking everything apart and extending the positive wire ( cut about 2 feet off :<( )

I need to do some digging on load testing, have a post somewhere here. The manual gives a multiplier for your amp hour rating as to load test current, my load tester is a simple one, so I had to modify the test by changing the test time. As soon as I find it I will link or post.

What is your "normal" battery discharge rate?? 3X amp hour rating is 3 x 10 = 30 amp @ 15 seconds, take your actual current draw of load tester and divide that by the 30 amp, take this number and divide it into 15 seconds, this will give you the test time for your load tester.


My plan is to isolate my stator output and use fixed 75 to 100 watt resistors @ about 4 to 6 ohm, measure, the AC voltage @ idle and ac current, measure AC voltage and current@ 4000 to 5000 rpm . The purpose of this is to see how close Kawasaki was on the turns ratio. To explain, the stator and rotor have a total magnetic flux handling available, we will say 340 VA or watts. V is volts A amps, as a example say the output was 340 volts = 1 amp, that would mean the regulator would need to drop more than 90% of the voltage output and have a current limit of 1 amp.The ideal output voltage is that that just maintains the loads @ idle , one option I am looking at is changing the winding to a delta connected stator, which would involve more turns @ a smaller gauge wire, output voltage between idle and 5000 RPM would be much closer than the OEM Y connection.

Again, thanks for the pictures and a very descriptive write up.

Last edited by onewizard; 12-03-2016 at 11:43 AM.
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post #128 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 09:32 PM
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I am kind of glad that I never ever got around to taking pictures of my install, because after my install and all the changes that came later, and as a result of that, coaching your install has produced a far easier and superior install. I really like the two decimal place Greenlee, although all my stuff is either Fluke, Tektronixs, or Simpson.
I had an advantage of my stator came back w/very long wires extending from the rubber case grommet. I think that's what started the idea of bypassing the existing harness. The next guy after, and so on and so on will each benefit from those before. I've always been mechanically inclined but, w/o your electrical experience this would of been uneasy for me.

I initially wanted the Fluke, but became a little bashful after finding out the price. I'm hoping this meter will suffice for my usage. It cost me a little under $40.


Quote:
Pulling the 30 amp solution is the simple fix, I don't have that option because I tied my positive into the OEM harness, once I discovered the problem, I didn't feel like taking everything apart and extending the positive wire ( cut about 2 feet off :<( )
Don't rule out that I won't follow your lead and add a relay later. Time will tell. I have a spare hi amp relay from an old set of PIAA fog lights.
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post #129 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 09:49 PM
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Quote from Onewizard......One other thing, on a deeply discharged battery, starting the bike and riding it is a sure way to finish off the battery, the alternator doesn't limit the charge current , a proper battery tender or motorcycle charger limits the current to about 1 amp.
Funny you should mention that. When my stator fried I was about an 1 1/2 hrs from home in lower 20'sF and it was dark. I changed out of my heated gear and turned of my heated grips. I put on my back up fleece jacket and pants, and wool socks and winter gloves

A Cop gave me a jump, and off I went. I watched my headlight get dimmer and dimmer. Eventually my inst panel went out, but the bike kept on running all the way to my garage. After i turned it off, for fun I hit the starter button. It didn't even have enough juice to energize the starter relay.
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post #130 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 06:44 PM
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After a full day of work I came home and measured my "rested voltage" on my battery. 13.00 VDC. It's in the mid 40's F in my garage.

I performed a Load Test and it did not drop below 12.6 VDC .

So I'm pretty sure my one year old AGM battery survived the charging system incident.
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post #131 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 07:02 AM
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new to the forum and loving the great info...enjoyed reading this 10pg thread; anybody having headlight relay issues with stator and R/R issues? I've replaced the stator but not the R/R yet. Headlight works fine until I'm at 4-5K rpm for 20 minutes then the relay pops. Mine is a 2008 with 30,000 miles
'Bad regulator ate my headlights.....'

Intermittent Headlamp Problem


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post #132 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 08:10 PM
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outright fails and I have to replace the relay box; not sure I know what de-energizes looks like
Add a little insight here. The headlight relay has two control sources in parallel, one source is the stator AC one phase, the second comes from the power output, through a diode to the relay coil. Once the stator produces enough AC equal to around 10 volts,(this is rectified through a single diode) the relay pulls in, once this relay pulls in and the contacts close, a second circuit with a blocking diode,connected to the output side of the relay contact and also connected to the coil. This circuit is to latch or lock in your headlight relay, one downfall to this circuit is if your regulator craps out , and that ac 1 phase circuit is allowed to run free, it is possible to have 48 VDC or higher on your headlight relay, this relay will burn out if the diode doesn't fail first.
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post #133 of 387 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 08:23 PM
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'Bad regulator ate my headlights.....'

Intermittent Headlamp Problem
Very good chance your regulator is damaged, if you have a meter, a couple simple tests beyond what the manual says, the manual has some excellent tests, however both a meter and a second battery are required.

The first test involves checking the AC volts at the regulator with the bike at idle. If you have a piece of old telephone wire, strip 3 pieces and try and insert one each in the female socket ( you could also strip a twist tie for the wire). The idea is to measure the ac voltage on all three phases. A-B, B-C, and C-A, they should be less than 18 VAC.

Next test the battery voltage, should be around 14.2 VDC or less.
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post #134 of 387 (permalink) Old 04-01-2013, 05:17 AM
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[QUOTE=onewizard;224694]Well I looked at the drawing and that drawing is essentially the Versys headlight relay circuit.

One Wizard, this is from your posting #167 (my question follows):

Since I have already installed one and reviewed my install, this is what I would do if I replaced my bike with yours;

#1 take the side cover off located above the alternator, exposing the alternator 3 phase wire connector.
#2 strip about a 1/4 inch of insulation off each of the white wires in a staggered formation , then solder the three wires from the new regulator, tape with rubber tape or silicone seal caulking. An alternate method would be to use 10 gauge insulated but splices, wire from the alternator and wire from regulator in bottom of but splice, then double over the wire going to the connector, this end goes into top of but splice, do the same for all three----------if you knew which wire pulls on the headlight relay you would only need to do one wire ( I need to test this, what should happen is if you connected positive to one of the black 3 phase wires, the headlight relay should pull in, that is with the alternator stator disconnected-----I need to prove this-not tonight)
#3 run both positive and negative output wires their full length, connect negative to frame ground, positive to a 30 amp weatherproof fuse holder, from the fuse holder go direct to battery OR connect to 12 volt relay, from relay connect to battery. Use your tail light wire to drive the relay, connect other side of relay coil to existing frame ground.
#4 rubber tape original plug to old regulator----gives the option of connecting OEM regulator when you sell the bike

I did #1, 2, 3, 4 as above, using wire similar to what Mtn. Man did, from the stator wires to the R/R center wires, leaving old wiring intact. Neg from R/R went to frame ground. Pos from R/R went to 30A fused wire to battery pos terminal. I will control parasitic draw by pulling fuse vs installing another relay on my bike.

The question is: no one has mentioned whether it's important to connect particular wires from the stator to the center 3 R/R wires. Does it matter - if so how should it be done? Or just connect the 3 wires - no particular order?

Thanks for your help - you have way more electronics expertise than I do.
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post #135 of 387 (permalink) Old 04-01-2013, 08:42 AM
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As previously mentioned, it doesn't matter which of the 3 stator wires goes on which 3 center R/R wires... All 3 do the same job independently.
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post #136 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-22-2013, 11:28 PM
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I would replace the battery ASAP, my 07 was showing similar signs last year, this year went to start one day and not even clicking, replaced with the same make and model of OEM battery, really big difference, not bad getting 5 years out of the original. Battery was under $75.
One suggestion would be to check your battery voltage immediately after a ride, see what the voltage is say 5 minutes after stopping, if it is less than 12.6 VDC or what was my case last year of 12.3 VDC , your battery has become a load instead of a electrical storage device.
Thanks for that. I did get a reading right after getting home last night and she was at 12.23. It started again right away but it did start to drop right away and I ended up shutting the bike off at 11.5 volts. New battery this week for sure.

Falling down is your bodies way of saying you just screwed up.

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post #137 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-24-2013, 03:20 PM
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Haha yeah. Fortunately we got the guys at the dealership to charge my battery and we took off for the hills to camp, rather than staying in town.

About regulators:

I recommend people read this wikipedia article about the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_regulator

I think it's talking about the right thing, though I'm not an electrical engineer...
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post #138 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-25-2013, 06:48 AM
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Haha yeah. Fortunately we got the guys at the dealership to charge my battery and we took off for the hills to camp, rather than staying in town.

About regulators:

I recommend people read this wikipedia article about the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_regulator

I think it's talking about the right thing, though I'm not an electrical engineer...
Short story, the article starts to discuss switching regulators, then stops. Anyone that hasn't followed this burnt stator thread needs to look at previous posts. Several of us are now running Compufire regulators. If there are any questions, and time permits, I will find those previous posts.Bottom line, the size of the magnet wire used in winding the Versus stator is either undersized and or not high enough temperature rating.Myself I would wind with a class H, http://www.superioressex.com/uploade...ss-ratings.pdf, I doubt that is what is used

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post #139 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-25-2013, 12:23 PM
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I was just curious as to the guys that have had an stator issue. Do you have a hugger on your bike? One of the first things i did with my bike was to put a hugger on it to keep water and crap from the rear wheel off the rectifier. As most know i have lots of electrical goodies going on my bike sometime 3 video cameras,fog lights and abit more all going and my voltmeter stays right on the money. i've dropped my bike twice on the left side and when i got hit by the car the bike bounced off the pavement on the left side with no issues.

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post #140 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-27-2013, 11:14 AM
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I had a hugger on my bike for about 13,500 miles. Then I switched to a 'mud flap' kinda design. It seems to work really well. After riding around in the mud for quite a while on my WABDR trip, I only had one mud fleck that made its way onto the voltage regulator. Lots of mud was flung up from the front tire, though, that the SWmotech bash plate didn't deflect. But none of that made it far enough to the rear to affect the voltage regulator. Maybe the dried mud insulated the generator cover and elevated temps? Doubtful. There wasn't that much. I'm also pretty sure this was a problem before my trip even started, I just didn't realize it.

As for water, that would only help cool the voltage regulator and keep it running more efficiently. So maybe a rear tire hugger (in the city, at least) would be LESS beneficial to your voltage regulator. On the other hand, proper heat dissapation from the voltage regulator might not be the problem. As this discussion has made clear, our bikes are moving 100% of the current the stator is capable of putting out 100% of the time. It might simply be the design of the regulator, it might be stator wiring of too small a guage, operating temps that are not within the desired range?

It would seem that this problem is unrelated to a rear tire hugger, unless you have been riding around in the mud a whole bunch with no protection. That's my best guess.


Obviously, the failure point is the windings on the stator. I don't recall seeing any oil cooling facilitation by the rotor when I was in there replacing my stator last week. I read somewhere that BMW had the same problem on their F650/800GS bikes. They supposedly redesigned the rotor to have some holes in it for cooling. I imagine those holes are oriented such that they allow oil to flow outwards and away from the stator. Oil would then have to circulate back into the core of the rotor (where the stator is), and provide some more cooling. Sort of like a centrifuge, only the outer ring of the centrifuge is porous. It would be replentished because the centrifuge is slightly submerged in a bath of oil, allowing new materal to flow in from the side.

I wonder if Kawasaki has thought of this at all? Who knows. I'm probably going to buy a new voltage regulator soon... I don't want this happening again.

Last edited by nprecup; 09-27-2013 at 11:19 AM.
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