Burnt Stator/ Stator Testing - Page 10 - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #181 of 387 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 04:44 PM
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post #182 of 387 (permalink) Old 08-28-2014, 11:30 PM
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This is critical winding information that I possibly will follow up on in 2016/2017 to increase current output briefly the difference:

Stator output maximum = 330 Watts
@ 14.2 VDC= 330/14.2= 23.23 Amp DC
@ 13.2VDC= 330/13.2= 25 Amp DC My feeling and recent tests show the VAC going in are about 7% high, once the magnet wire is hot, this drops off. I am looking at changing from Delta to Y , each connection has advantages and disadvantages, going Y I reduce the number of turns which if you measure the insulation adds up to about 2 turns per pole, this gain will be lost as I want to increase the wire size to either a 15 or 14.5 gauge, the China knockoffs are using 18 gauge on the Y connected stator, as you can see in my data below the Delta uses 2 18 gauge******so someone out there can start thinking about this, I think I could gain between 7 and 10% in output,this would definitely require a series regulator


I have some more info, and once I am done, I will post my findings on known stator suppliers, after that I will leave it up to the individual to decide.

For now I will give the winding dope for both a Y and a Delta

Delta which is what OEM is;
44 turns per pole of 18 gauge magnet wire per pole, I would try and get class H---( OEM looks like a class C or F)

length of 18 gauge is 96" per pole, 576" per phase plus 20"= 596" and 1788" total to rewind delta = 150 feet approx.of copper in OEm

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y connected
15 gauge magnet wire, 25 turns per pole= 56" X 6 poles =332" plus 20= 352" or 29.5 feet per phase or approx. 90 feet of 15 gauge connected Y to do a complete rewind

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
as you can see, 60 feet less to wind Y and 450 total turns on Y as opposed to 792 turns on delta-------advantages and disadvantages for each, one advantage of Y is less insulation----as a example if I subtract 25 from 44 = 19 X .004 = .076 inches, I gain roughly the thickness of two 18 gauge wires with less turns, the .004 is the insulation ( .002 on each side);

now that everyone is asleep, I will stop here-----------this is almost like a JDRocks -------can't wait for the next post----well not really

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post #183 of 387 (permalink) Old 08-29-2014, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fasteddiecopeman View Post
Do you recommend the Delta, or the Y, as the preferable solution?



COMPARISON OF Y TO DELTA

************************************************** ******
Not quite that simple.
Y has a total of 450 turns, Delta 792 total turns,
so 342 more chances of shorted turns on Delta. From a standpoint of winding, Delta is easier because of the wire gauge, easier to form 18 gauge than 15 gauge.

Another option is to wind Y with what is refered to as "two in hand", use 2 of the class H 18 gauge magnet wires, easier to form but MUCH HARDER to layer wind without getting crossovers, plus you are now adding insulation and in reality it will take 15% more room to wind.

What I am contemplating to do is wind with a 14 gauge, Y connected, with reduced turns, like 23 per pole.

I need to do more testing and wait for some results from a few other sources, this may be a winter project.

So to answer your question, if machine wound with class H, I would go with Delta------------hand wound using class H I would go with Y, and with Y you could cheat like some of the after market stator suppliers are doing and wind with a 16; 17; or like __ __ __ __Stator, uses 18 gauge on Y

One last thing, if your bike load is stock, you don't intend to add aditional loads and you will never need 330 watts output, reduce load by changing out the city lights to LED etc., then adding a series regulator on your after market 18 gauge Y stator , may give you 5000 hours before burnout.

Same after market stator with stock regulator, riding in 25'C weather for extended periods or extended periods of running at or above 4000 RPM , expect to be a seasonal occurance changing out stators .

Last edited by onewizard; 12-07-2016 at 11:31 AM.
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post #184 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 09:20 PM
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Here are some pictures of a RM Stator out of Quebec and the burnt one is OEM.
Several different views , one thing to note is that RM stator is .200 thinner and I have contacted RM and talked briefly with Mike , one of their Tech people. I mentioned that when installing the RM stator the distance measured between the base of the housing and shoulder of the allen head cap screw when snugged up in the housing was 0.515 and the RM stator was 0.521, OEM was 0.721 thick, we ended up drilling out three nuts that were .176 thick, as it was risky that the bolts could bottom out and the stator could actually be loose.

I also mentioned that the Y connected stator was wound with the same 18 gauge wire as the OEM Delta connected, why the concern, I mentioned in previous posts, but circular mils per amp is half of what OEM stator is, it should have been wound using 15 gauge magnet wire. All the postings I have seen on this site including Ricks, going back to 2008, have the same amount of distance between poles, that is the amount of copper is about 50% less.

I will give my opinion and views as to stators in another post along with what is available as to regulators . I was told the reason from changing from Delta to Star / Y, was due to the number of burnt stators [attach][attach]

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You will see in photo 3 , JPG 1 , the Y connection at the 7 O'Clock position--------also so there is no confusion the RM Stator is the new looking green epoxy coated stator
[/attach][/attach] One of the design problems of OEM is that all the starts and finishes are at the base of each pole, so it is ineveitable to have crossovers and one more place to short out individual poles. In the RM stator the finish is at the top of the pole, then jumps to the next 3rd pole and starts at the base, so virtually impossible to have shorted poles due to start and finish connections ( look at top of photo #1 ).
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Last edited by onewizard; 09-05-2014 at 06:27 PM.
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post #185 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 11:06 PM
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Regulators

I am going to keep this brief; just editing looks like I failed that

There presently isn't anything on the market specific to the Versys that is series regulated, rather than shunt. There presently are three, CompuFire, Polaris 4012941 and RM Stator RM 30506H ( look up 2008 ZX-14, click on OEM number and 4012941 ( SH 775), plus a host of other numbers comes up) it is listed as Mosfet Voltage Regulator Rectifier.

As to any of these, the best way would be to add a minimum 30 amp rated relay, in Canada I went to Princess auto, picked up two relays and two harnesses, for a total of $20,the relays dovetail together, paralleled everything and used the tail light for control. My install was for a CompuFire, and I retrofitted the relay after finding the drain problem. What I would suggest is to bring the positive wire up to the relay, from the relay you should install a 30 amp fuse, then from the fuse to the battery. BE AWARE THE OEM PLUG AT THE REGULATOR POSITIVE GOES DIRECTLY TO A 30 AMP MAIN FUSE, WHICH IS LIVE ALL THE TIME ---unless your battery us dead--then no worries-- ( I had to use the negative ground, as everything was buried in the OEM harness )

As to connecting a used or new Polaris , I personally would make up three 14 gauge TEW or other fine strand wire jumpers with 10 gauge spade female stakons on both ends, about possibly 18 inches long, go from bottom of OEM plug which is the 3 phase to new regulator 3 phase input. For the negative use 10 gauge and 10 gauge female spade, run to frame ground by ECU. For positive use 10 gauge and same set up and run to relay as described before.

Several ways to make all joints waterproof if you don't want to source the wiring and plug kit such as what Roadster Cycle has available.

I have several simple ways to waterproof everything once testing is completed, I will explain the cheapest and simpleist. Also it can be easily reversed back to OEM regulator.

take a small zip lock or sandwich bag, punch a hole in the bottom, one bag hole first over the regulator socket the second hole first over the OEM plug, make all your wire connections, ( you can purchase some loom to go over the wire or just electrical tape for abrasion resistance,
your call) take a roll of electrical tape and tape backwards, that is sticky side out, do about three layers over the connections, last wrap change to sticky side in. Take some clear or white sillicone and pump a amount sufficient to cover the connection on both sides, the bag is to allow you to form a smooth covering without getting all ,over your hands, you could also use plastic wrap.

So it comes time you want to switch back, take a utillity knife cut through the sillicone and tape on one side, the whole assembly will come off as 1 mold, since the tape was sticky side out, nothing is stuck to the tape.I have used this method in some extremely harsh conditions, years later I have removed these joints, surprisingly, over time from heating and cooling, expansion etc. , you can read all the markings from the connectors inside the tape, as a example the word Burndy #26 ( for the electricians on this forum)

Info I recieved from LowFlyer would indicate the SH775 will work on the Versys,it has a identical footprint, one thing to be aware is the output could be anywhere between 13.9 and 14.2 depending on the day it was made in China

CompuFire is a solid 14.2 and has a higher current rating,except at idle when the stator can't keep up. It doesn't match the OEM footprint and my cooling finns actually are at right angles to the airflow .

That is it for now,

Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2016 at 08:34 AM.
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post #186 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minirollsrule View Post
Hi Everyone
Iv now joined the club at 41k miles. Broke down as described previously; lights and clocks went out, still running then jerky running and then dead.
Broke down 580 miles north of home at the top of scotland and trucked it all the way back

Iv been diligently reading all the forum posts about this problem and i must commend you all on the level of detail the posts go into in this thread. The information is so in depth and amazing I am very glad to have such helpful fellow versysians to offer advice.

Im looking into the comparisons between the shindengen and the compufire series R/R and cant find much difference. costs roughly the same (in the UK) and does the same job (improvement on OEM R/R) Is there anything i am missing?

Im also talking to the guys over at ricks motorsport electric to find out the current capacity of their stator as it occurs to me that unless the stator can supply the current capabilities of the R/R i could potentially melt the new stator?
For information for people planning a preventative fitment of a series R/R, does anyone know the current rating of the stock stator?
The compufire can deliver 40A and the Shindengen 35A, so hopefully Ricks will come back and say the stator is good for atleast 40A.
I may never utilise this capacity but i too am a fan of over engineering so something runs happily for years at 75% capacity.

Anyway Ill let you know in due course what I found out from Ricks.
If you are talking to a live person, find out what gauge the magnet wire is and what the connection is, I am sure it is 18 gauge and Y, but check into that and I will tell you what it is good for, and that stator will NEVER put out 40 amp, unless 9VDC is what you need.

So it is clear, heat in a stator, is essentially voltage drop across the resistance of the wire and connections, the higher the resistance the greater the loss, the loss being in the form of heat. The magnetic field strength is fixed so the only way to increase output is to increase speed , reduce losses by increasing wire gage, change turns ratio. The Versys is something like 330 Watt, you could wind it to produce 100 volts @ 3.3 amp or 33 amp @ 10 volts.
I think it is possible to get 400 watts out of the magnetic field of the Versys, I just don't know if there is enough room to get the wire gauge required to reach this number.
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post #187 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-05-2014, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by onewizard View Post

I have several simple ways to waterproof
Now that is a truly innovative solution. Thanks! I like simple solutions that really work well.

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post #188 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-05-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by minirollsrule View Post
Im not an electrical guy, thats why all the information in these forums is so important to me and why im so grateful!

It was just an observation but your explanation makes sense, the current isnt important (to a point) its the wattage of the stator that important.
Presumably the stator at tick over will have lots of current draw but low voltage and visa versa, high revs high voltage and low current?

There was one last point i wanted to clarify:
The brown wire heading for the stock regulator; i understand that is something to do with the control of the stock regulator, is this ok just to leave unconnected when using these aftermarket series R/R's?

many thanks
The brown isn't used.
My latest revision uses the three black wire terminals of the OEM socket at the regulator, nothing else is used, however the negative could be used to eliminate carrying a ground all the way up to the ECU frame ground from the new regulator----my planned drawing will show that as a option, personally that is a second joint which could fail, depending on if you have the wire or not.
I never thought of making a paper drawing, so I will do that, post it with options of wiring.

FYI the wire needed can be sourced from a reputable electric motor shop, most motor lead wire is extra flexible 155'C or higher, if you really want to be specific, take some string and go from connection points along the normal route, add a few inches for mistakes, now measure the string, you then have a exact measurement. Most electrical suppliers sell this by the roll, and charge double or more to cut it , and usually won't cut this type of wire, sold by the roll only, way more than anyone needs for individual use.
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post #189 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-05-2014, 02:24 PM
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I called up Ricks Motorsport and spoke to a helpful chap who explained the difference between the types of regulator for me and i got his opinion on the preffered type to go for, shunt vs series.

He backed all that had been previously said about the differences that the shunt allows the stator to run at 100% load all the time and only takes what it needs to charge the battery/supply the bikes electrics. And that the series turns the connection on and off to the stator when power is need or not.

His opinion was that the shunt was a MORE efficient circuit and thats why they supply that type and not series. I pressed him as to why and he only said it depends what you are looking for from the circuit. which i can only assume it costs more to make but no one would buy it who doesnt know the circuitry difference and benefits???

Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
If you are talking to a live person, find out what gauge the magnet wire is and what the connection is, I am sure it is 18 gauge and Y, but check into that and I will tell you what it is good for
As to the Stator, its a direct plug and play which is nice. when asked about connections he checked his schematic and said their replacement is a Delta form winding using 18 gauge magnetic wire. he didnt know what i meant when i asked if it was H class.


Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2016 at 08:36 AM.
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post #190 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-05-2014, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by minirollsrule View Post
I called u
Only people involved with winding stators would know what class H is, for those people that have nothing better to do I have included a link, only need to go to page 3 for magnet wire insulation rating for Nema rating; http://www.superioressex.com/uploade...ss-ratings.pdf



I need to say a big to lowflyer43 for working with me , below are some of my questions and followed by his readings;

It would appear that the SH775 has a tendency to be slightly lower output as to set point than Compufire, I was looking to see if regulation was a problem compared to other forum comments for different bikes. The one thing I didn't ask for and would be a crucial factor in recommending this regulator would be to measure the current at the 3 phase plug by the throttle position sensor, I didn't ask this because I assumed that most people on this forum don't have test equipement like I have. If you have a clamp on AC amprobe, check phase current at 1400 RPM , should be around 8 amp per phase, raise rpm to 2 or 3 thousand, current should remain the same, around 8 amp per phase. On a shunt style regulator it goes to 15 -16 amp per phase at 4000 RPM.



So if you do have a clamp on amprobe, this would verify your specific normal load current, balanced phase current times 1.73 = peak current DC ( just a rough measurement, because no filtration on the recitified side, also dealing with high frequency so no way of knowing the accuracy of the clamp on)

Below are readings from; lowflyer43

1400....low beam hot..12.73volts
1400....high beam hot..12.38volts
5000....high beam........14.05volts and at
8000....14.03volt

On the OEM regulator, it was 8 amp at idle, 15 amp at 4000 RPM and 16 amp above 4000, no change in current with high beam on or off, thus the reason to go to series style regulator.
I checked the amperage and it was only about 1.5 to 2 amps at idle. at 3-4000 the amps were a low of 7.8 to a high of 10.3 and never settled down to a specific load reading. I assume its because of the regulator attempting to maintain a steady output and floating the stator.

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post #191 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-07-2014, 09:50 PM
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SEE POST 201 FOR CLARIFICATION

[I]Rather than edit this I thought to leave it intact, as it would point to a problem I resolved in post 202

[/I]
Well I discovered something amazing, I have checked all my grounds, to the best of my knowledge there is a engine ground and frame ground. The two grounds are joined at the negative battery terminal and are part of a composite plug. I have a 10 gauge negative from my Compufire regulator to the two relays in parallel and from the relays connected to the frame ground.

I decided to add a 12 gauge bonding jumper from my frame ground to the negative terminal, more of a safeguard than anything.

What I discovered was the battery voltage is now 14.41 and under load at idle , instead of dropping to 12.6 when the fan comes on, it drops to 13.6 to 13.7. Also with the high beam on ( no fan) it is 14.1 instead of 12.7. I have also noticed the bike runs smoother.

This is my theory, most electronics , frequency drives, dc drives, soft starts, even computers don't like ripple, that is the ac component of the dc output of the regulator. You will always have ripple, one method is to filter it out using capacitors, our bike doesn't have that. A computer uses 1 and 0 as input laguage, 1 is high and 0 low, very similar to ripple, the ECU could be affected by the ripple.

So for those that want to experiment, it will take about 2 feet of 12 gauge wire and two 1/4 inch ring stakons, connect one end to frame ground by ECU and other end to negative battery terminal.





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ID:	54857 If you look to the right of the meter display you will see my two relays and a bit of yellow wire coming off, which is my relays for the regulator

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ID:	54881 For those that are curious, the box under the red fiberglass is my homemade brake flasher and additional wiring for my addmore lights on the Givi cases, the part sticking up is the heatsink for the SCR flasher and internal voltage regulator, a little overkill, but everything was sealed into the box, so no taking apart later if it overheated.

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ID:	54889 40 / 30 amp relays pulled for clarity, sockets dovetail together as a example==
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pack-Premi...item3f39a2ca55

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post #192 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-07-2014, 10:11 PM
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SEE POST 201 FOR CLARIFICATION




I started out making a rough drawing and since I have so much time into it I thought I would post it, this is one version switching the positive output of the regulator. My second drawing eliminates the external fuse and uses the positive OEM wiring to the 30 amp main fuse, and switches the negative ground next to the frame ground by the ECU. I have added a 12 gauge wire from the frame ground to the negative battery terminal, about 2 feet long with two 1/4 inch ring stakons.
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See post 202
The wire from the fuse and from the relay to the battery should also be D, 10 gauge wire.
Bonding jumper is a 12 gauge or better, added from the frame ground to the negative battery terminal. If you look in photo 3, the black wire is what was added, I followed the wiring harness, look in photo 1 above the meter you will see some wire ties, I went past the battery along the harness, then came back to the negative terminal, just below were the seat mounts.

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post #193 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-08-2014, 04:22 AM
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So in a nut shell OneWizard... you just added some rice to our bikes and added a 'grounding kit'. LOL

Sorry... it a car thing.
But the car theory is a better grounding kit allows for better spark.

Correct me If I wrong...

What you have done is add a more grounding capacity direct to Battery at the chassis ground point near ECU?

So what is it really doing? Is the Stator Earth at the Chassis ground point and you are just beefing it up and seeing better battery voltage right?

or does the stator earth through the engine earth point?

anyway... I think you are saying add some thick cable between battery negative and rear chassis ground near ECU and things will be Electrically better for the Bike.

I wonder if this will give better/cleaner spark?

Good job.
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post #194 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-08-2014, 08:22 PM
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So I had to trouble shoot why the 12 gauge wire worked , so go to post 202 for more interesting reading, this is almost like a fiction novel

So questions get asked and I start thinking. For about 3 years, roughly how long I have run the Compufire, I have wondered about the wire ground to the battery. I wasn't expecting the results that I got by adding a 12 gauge wire from frame ground to battery ground, in fact I was getting ready to go for a ride and ended up getting my meter out and doing some tests, luckily the person I was riding with called to say they would be delayed by 45 minutes----roughly how long it took me.

Today I went through the manual, I found the negative lead connector next to the fuse block, my bike is a 07, the connector is clear, looks like a 16 gauge wire, took it apart, perfect order.This is shown in appendix 17-10 item 2.There is also a joint connector on the wiring drawing shown 2 down below ECU, about six ground wires, several from the ECU and eventually end at the frame ground.

So my negative goes from the regulator to a relay, then to frame ground. The ground in the OEM regulator plug isn't used, I traced this on the drawing and found it went to the same place, my ground is 10 gauge, so I never went further until now.

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post #195 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-08-2014, 08:46 PM
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So what is it really doing? Is the Stator Earth at the Chassis ground point and you are just beefing it up and seeing better battery voltage right?

or does the stator earth through the engine earth point?

anyway... I think you are saying add some thick cable between battery negative and rear chassis ground near ECU and things will be Electrically better for the Bike.

I wonder if this will give better/cleaner spark?

Good job.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=Gigitt;
So you can save some reading and go to post 202



I can only guess as the effort in installing that 12 gauge wire, took only minutes--------------well it took about 1 minute on the frame ground and 9 on the battery cause the extra stakon took up one thread on the bolt and the nut was sitting on the battery under the terminal, so had to lift the nut up with a small screwdriver to get it started.

As to running better, that is the first thing I noticed, I have a heads up voltage monitor, the bike had been sitting for a week, so normaly it would be red, yellow then green after about 2 minutes, when I started it this time , it was green instantly. Second test was at idle, with high beam on it would be red to yellow( 12.6 vdc), I could never run high beam at idle and get 14.2 VDC ( both high and low are Oshram 65W ) again this time it was green ( around 13.9 VDC).
So this may be specific to my bike, as there may be a wiring harness problem, or it may affect all Versys, only way to find out is if others try adding this 2 foot piece of wire.

Thanks for your interest and input.

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post #196 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-08-2014, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
That's good to know. Mine is also a Canadian 2007 made in Japan which will be entirely identical... I'll get to the ground wires over winter storage time.
Only thing I am suggesting is to add a 12 gauge or 14 gauge wire from frame ground to the negative battery terminal, took me 10 minutes total. And you have a Compufire regulator as well.

I have lots for winter, @ 24000 KM and need to check valve clearance, got as far as changing the plugs this year and when it finally warmed up I decided to button it back up.

See post 202 for Diagnostic

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post #197 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-09-2014, 02:57 AM
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I just did a quick Voltage test after I rode it home today.

Digital Multimeter Positive on Battery Terminal.
then I measured 3 different earth points so see voltage difference.
- Battery Negative
- Fuel Tank Seat bracket
- near ECU earth bolt

Idle was set to ~1300rpm via PowerCommander 5
2012 Versys 650L (Australian)
22,4xx km on the odo

Measurements
Battery Voltage : 12.70
Ignition Switch On : 12.49
During Start : 11.45
Idle 1300 rpm : 13.0
3000rpm : 14.0
Idle 1300 rpm +Highbeam : 13.10-13.35
Idle 1300 rpm +Highbeam +Fan : 12.60

For me it did not matter where I attached Negative probe it read roughly the same voltage.
Voltage did waver a little maybe 0.2V during a 5 sec period measuring an earth point.
I did not see any significant voltage drop like 0.5V.
My voltages stayed about the same and varied the same at each measurement.

I hope I did this right...

Last edited by Gigitt; 09-09-2014 at 03:03 AM.
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post #198 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-09-2014, 01:31 PM
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11061-0165 GASKET,GENERATOR COVER

I didn't use a new one. Remove cover very carefully, don't tear the gasket when you remove the wires grommet. I used a very thin smear of the same silicone that came with the new stator from RM stator. No leaks.
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post #199 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-09-2014, 04:56 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Kitchener Ontario
Posts: 1,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigitt View Post
I just did a quick ..
Connect from battery negative to frame ground, other words you are adding a additional negative bonding wire. When done check readings at battery only------------what I said in my prior post was all readings were higher, I have a heads up voltage monitor which is what tipped me off. By adding a bonding jumper from Battery Negative to frame ground, I have created a parallel path so that the 8 gauge wire that goes to engine ground may shunt some of the current that went through the wire harness.

The end result for me is everything works better, especially the fan, as I have a ThermoBob,before I added the wire, coming off the highway to a stop the fan would always run, my heads up would go red, (below 12.6 volts) , by adding that wire the voltage at the fan is almost 1 volt higher, battery voltage is higher etc.

See post 315

Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2016 at 10:31 AM.
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post #200 of 387 (permalink) Old 09-09-2014, 10:18 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
Well your halfway there


Ok... I have some 4 or 8 Gauge somewhere from car amp install.. I'll wire it up and test voltage s again as see if there is an improvement.

So IF you add the extra Negative cable AND you see an improvement in Battery Voltage at Idle - you have a weak negative path to the battery and this will fix it.

If you don't see a change then no problem right?

Can I ask Onewizard why you have relays on the earth?
Is this to isolate the RR?
Maybe the relays giving you a voltage drop due to limited cross section of earth path and hence why the Extra Parallel Earth is helping you.

Last edited by onewizard; 12-04-2016 at 10:14 AM.
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