Still chasing that stuttering... Time for more crazy theories! - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 01:57 AM Thread Starter
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Still chasing that stuttering... Time for more crazy theories!

So yeah, still chasing the odd mid-range stutter on my 2008 650. So just so give an idea. Cruising at maybe 4500 RPMs and I fully close the throttle for whatever reason. As soon as I open it back up ...PPHHHPHHH POP. You can feel it. I got so frustrated today that i kept sticking my boot next to the exhaust and feeling it- a drop in pressure as you go to 0%, then when you roll back on, it hesitates and a burst of air farts out and taunts me with a sudden jerk and pop.

I've taken the 2bros off and put the stock can back on it-- nope. Disabled the Power Commander 5 and AT200-- NOPE. still does it. I've checked the TPS voltage, which read at around 1.020v while idling at 1300rpm. I've checked valve clearances. I've synced the throttle bodies. It's driving me up the wall so much that i'm considering selling it. Nothing has seemed to help this stupid stutter!

So here's my final cries for help: I'm thinking it's electrical- a sensor? The TPS wiper being worn out?. My "uh-oh" light; one of those fancy color changing LEDs, went nuts today. While it was going nuts however, nothing changed, but the popping/surging still resumed.

Could a busted MAF cause this? They're pretty cheap, but i don't want to just crack into all of this without first wondering if it's possible. When i got the bike, the previous owner had the MAF just kinda haphazardly ziptied to the frame, having fell on the left side. I got a new bracket and reinstalled it, but not sure if maybe it got busted up, or perhaps the sensor wires could have a short?

Pic just in case you're not sure what i'm referring to:



I once had a car with a wonky MAF, and it ran like dog balls unless it was cleaned every so often. Could a dirty / wonked MAF cause these midrange stutters i'm experiencing when coming from off-throttle? Anyone ever heard of this?

Another desperate thing I thought was to just get a new throttle body. I've heard that the TPS wiper can wear out in a range and give bizarre readings, but this feels too heavy handed.

I've already replaced the coils with Ninja 650R coils, which are the "upgraded" densos that the Gen 3's started using, but now with my UhOh light freaking out, i'm now wondering if all of this is from the dreaded Stator / RegRect issues some Versyseses experience with burning out quickly.

Really.... where should I go from here? Because I'm at my wits end.
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 11:04 AM
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Still chasing that stuttering... Time for more crazy theories!

Wow, suggestion of selling, considering how long this has been going on or getting a professional involved, as we all have suggested many things, including is the air box fastened correctly and the vacuum hoses been changed? Exhaust manifold and pipes checked for leaks? The displayed TPS voltage is not all the readings, and is really meaningless unless the other readings are taken and posted. I mentioned this before and have a post on this in How To Forum.

I have posted all the different threads that relate to this problem, going back to March 2016. So it has been 1 year with this problem!

Hesitation / Popping from 4k to 6.5k - at my wits end
(&#$! snapped the TPS bolt - replacement #?
STILL popping/surging around 3-5k - Theory: TPS?
Still surging/popping between 4-6k no matter what I do
Doing my valves - Few questions
Should you disable a PC-Autotune after a while / What stoic?
Did PAIR valve mod - still pops / stutters, high pitched whistle.
Wanting to get an Autotune for my 2008 - what am I after?
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Last edited by onewizard; 03-25-2017 at 11:30 AM.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 02:14 PM
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That's not a maf sensor, it's a map sensor, they are very different. Since you're running a power commander you're only altering the TPS fuel chart, the iap chart is unaltered and the overlap confuses the tuning. It could also be something like a valve issue... or even a ground issue.... hard to tell from here.
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 06:57 PM
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It's an IAP (inlet air pressure) sensor, just like what they call a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor.

"My "uh-oh" light; one of those fancy color changing LEDs, went nuts today."

Electrical system monitor? Too many mods and adjustments perhaps, and we've lost track of what may have been overlooked.

Last edited by invader; 03-25-2017 at 07:00 PM.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 07:19 PM
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Tried moving all the related Threads

Yup, that was a disaster, got everything back and just copied all the links, it is like reading a code book, and how many things were followed by all suggestions , who knows.Like the TPS voltage , there are I think a total of 4. Something like asking someone if they checked the plugs on a six cylinder car, the answer comes back Yes, months later we ask again, as someone noticed exhaust side usually failed first but difficult to check. We find out only 3 plugs were in fact checked, turns out the problem was on the exhaust side all along. So what I am leading to here, is if you are asking for advice, and you have been told the same thing by several people, do all the tests and post all the results. Lots of extremely smart people on this forum, with the correct information, most problems can be solved without going to Kawasaki.

Last edited by onewizard; 03-25-2017 at 07:28 PM.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 08:03 PM
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Something got screwed up, and there is likely a vacuum leak somewhere... All hoses should be reinspected as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
Hey guys,

Took the bike apart to clean the air filter and replace the clutch cable, so I decided to go ahead and do the PAIR valve mod since I have an aftermarket exhaust (Two Brothers). Took it out for a test ride- still popped but not as badly, and i noticed this odd high pitched sound at around 5-6k, sort of like how turbo whine sounds.

I have a PC-V running the map for the two brothers exhaust.

Curious what else I could do to reduce the low speed stutter, and eliminate the popping after "loading" the throttle then releasing? Also curious what that odd whine sound could be.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Wow, suggestion of selling, considering how long this has been going on or getting a professional involved, as we all have suggested many things, including is the air box fastened correctly and the vacuum hoses been changed? Exhaust manifold and pipes checked for leaks? The displayed TPS voltage is not all the readings, and is really meaningless unless the other readings are taken and posted. I mentioned this before and have a post on this in How To Forum.

I have posted all the different threads that relate to this problem, going back to March 2016. So it has been 1 year with this problem!

Hesitation / Popping from 4k to 6.5k - at my wits end
(&#$! snapped the TPS bolt - replacement #?
STILL popping/surging around 3-5k - Theory: TPS?
Still surging/popping between 4-6k no matter what I do
Doing my valves - Few questions
Should you disable a PC-Autotune after a while / What stoic?
Did PAIR valve mod - still pops / stutters, high pitched whistle.
Wanting to get an Autotune for my 2008 - what am I after?
This is EXACTLY why it's annoying me. I've done all the tests, and i've checked all the voltages-- hoses, everything short of just tearing the bike down. I've outlined the TPS voltages before- they were within spec. I've checked the manifold-- replaced the copper gaskets, checked the pipes-- checked checked checked and checked again. If I'm being told the same thing, and that same thing is not working, don't you think the same thing isn't the problem?

THIS IS THE REASON WHY IT IS FRUSTRATING

I've posted my results and usually what happens when I do it, but it creeps back up-- same ****, different day. I'm not JUST brushing off the advice like it's nothing. I want to fix this damned problem, but it still eludes me. The question is-- how much deeper should I even go before it's just a time/money sink?

Invader: Yes- Uh-oh light is the electrical system. There aren't that many mods on the bike that use electricity-- just GPS, and Power Commander.

I don't mean to **** an attitude, but it's been an issue since day one. I didn't want to even get this deep into the bike with all these mods like PC-5 and AT200, but it was in relation TO THIS PROBLEM. I'm not sure what the previous owner didn't tell me about the running condition, but something somewhere is screwed up, and it's not within what everyone has been telling me.
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 10:47 PM
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Very Close to ripping bike apart

So much advice hard to remember what was done. My expertise is electrical, if you haven't figured that out by now , just FYI. Given accurate information, I can pinpoint the problem. Many tests developed by Kawasaki were done to simplify testing. What I am going to suggest doesn't exist in the exact format , in the service manual.First print out this;http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...37-post15.html

So key on, not running, connected to #1 and #3, this is from my post ;New setting 1 to 3 , key only , not running 1.041 VDC WOT 4.25 VDC what you want to do is turn your throttle from idle to WOT, slowly, try lightly tapping the TPS while holding the throttle steady. What you are looking for is a change in reverse as you increase throttle, that is as you increase throttle the voltage should rise and in direct proportion to throttle position, returning to idle should cause a steady decrease, at no time should you get a sudden change. The sub throttle sensor also has test values I think you checked. The comment about the IAP sensor is valid, and there is a test for that .Is the tach steady during this popping and I need further understanding about the discussion about the voltage heads up monitor,depending what it is connected to may pinpoint the problem. FYI the ECU has a separate ground to the frame, independent of other grounds, a bad connection would cause your problem. Current = heat / expansion , low current things contract, quite possible to have a bad frame ground for the ECU there should be two from the ECU,

So we are looking for a intermittent problem, strike out: valve shim, valve timing , TB sync , bad engine ground would cause the bike not to start, stick coils.

What could cause: defective tip over switch, defective TPS or sub throttle sensor, crankshaft position sensor corroded , located lower right side , the peak voltage test needs to be done, as the coil could have shorted turns, failing exactly at a given RPM.

Last edited by onewizard; 03-25-2017 at 10:56 PM.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 12:24 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
So much advice hard to remember what was done. My expertise is electrical, if you haven't figured that out by now , just FYI. Given accurate information, I can pinpoint the problem. Many tests developed by Kawasaki were done to simplify testing. What I am going to suggest doesn't exist in the exact format , in the service manual.First print out this;http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums...37-post15.html

So key on, not running, connected to #1 and #3, this is from my post ;New setting 1 to 3 , key only , not running 1.041 VDC WOT 4.25 VDC what you want to do is turn your throttle from idle to WOT, slowly, try lightly tapping the TPS while holding the throttle steady. What you are looking for is a change in reverse as you increase throttle, that is as you increase throttle the voltage should rise and in direct proportion to throttle position, returning to idle should cause a steady decrease, at no time should you get a sudden change. The sub throttle sensor also has test values I think you checked. The comment about the IAP sensor is valid, and there is a test for that .Is the tach steady during this popping and I need further understanding about the discussion about the voltage heads up monitor,depending what it is connected to may pinpoint the problem. FYI the ECU has a separate ground to the frame, independent of other grounds, a bad connection would cause your problem. Current = heat / expansion , low current things contract, quite possible to have a bad frame ground for the ECU there should be two from the ECU,

So we are looking for a intermittent problem, strike out: valve shim, valve timing , TB sync , bad engine ground would cause the bike not to start, stick coils.

What could cause: defective tip over switch, defective TPS or sub throttle sensor, crankshaft position sensor corroded , located lower right side , the peak voltage test needs to be done, as the coil could have shorted turns, failing exactly at a given RPM.
I'm on the same page that I feel it's something electrical-- something malfunctioning somewhere, and i'm just not catching it-- especially without really knowing where to start. This helps.

Tach doesn't really change when it pops- you just feel it kinda jitter and hesitate though TBH, i'm not really paying much attention to my RPMs. In my brain it feels almost like that delayed response you get from lighting a pilot light on a stove and it taking a moment to fully flash on. There's a definite moment between input and actual response, which is VERY unnerving in corners.

Voltage monitor is tapped into one of the "city lights" in the front, which has a 2w LED bulb in it. Probably not ideal, i'm sure.

Concerning the TPS and Sub-throttle sensor-- I am pretty certain the PO futzed with both of them. Both bolts have been changed out, and the marks did not line up. He seemed like a tinkerer, but can only go on what is seen here; they're not the torx bits outlined in the manual, but allen heads. I've only checked TPS voltage using the PC5 and it's Calibrate TPS option. Sadly need to get the proper adapter.

Ripping her back apart tomorrow. Will report back with what I find.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 06:13 PM
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The adapter for the TPS and sub throttle is something like $20 http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detai...7001-1538.html

Last edited by onewizard; 03-27-2017 at 06:15 PM.
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 07:46 PM Thread Starter
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The adapter for the TPS and sub throttle is something like $20 57001-1538 SENSOR ADAPTER
Yep have one on order. Got delayed but started to pull things off the bike today to test. Still working on that part!
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 09:20 AM
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For what it's worth Mongoose, I just bought that tps sensor adapter harness and went through adjusting the tps myself to resolve my lean running issues (which could be causing your issue). At WOT, my tps was putting out 4.21v. The factory service manual states that anywhere from 4.2-4.4v is within spec for this. Even so, I adjusted the tps ever so slightly to where the output voltage read 4.30v so that it was in the middle of the spec range. I was in disbelief at how much of a difference it made. It smoothed out the on-off throttle control considerably (not jerky anymore), the engine generally runs smoother, and gear changes are much much smoother. It's like a completely different bike. Hopefully it will be as simple as this for you.

2009 Blue Versys - 3,000 miles
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 09:26 AM Thread Starter
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For what it's worth Mongoose, I just bought that tps sensor adapter harness and went through adjusting the tps myself to resolve my lean running issues (which could be causing your issue). At WOT, my tps was putting out 4.21v. The factory service manual states that anywhere from 4.2-4.4v is within spec for this. Even so, I adjusted the tps ever so slightly to where the output voltage read 4.30v so that it was in the middle of the spec range. I was in disbelief at how much of a difference it made. It smoothed out the on-off throttle control considerably (not jerky anymore), the engine generally runs smoother, and gear changes are much much smoother. It's like a completely different bike. Hopefully it will be as simple as this for you.
How's yours set up? Still have the stock exhaust?

Low RPMS can be herky-jerky and it's around 4k where I really feel some oddness (though only if i drop throttle and come back on-- say, engine braking before a corner then wanting to pick back up).

Can't remember what my WOT voltage was on the TPS, but this definitely helps with some solid numbers rather than "Just rotate it a little" - Thanks CyclopsRider!
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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The adapter for the TPS and sub throttle is something like $20 57001-1538 SENSOR ADAPTER
Checked all voltages and resistances the other day- everything seemed solid. Also sprayed the connectors clean with Deoxit. Map is reset, and AT200 is turned off for now.

Bike ran a little better though i could still feel a small shudder around 4-6k, as usual. It's minimized but not squashed. Though at this point, i feel like i'm being too sensitive about it.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
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How's yours set up? Still have the stock exhaust?

Low RPMS can be herky-jerky and it's around 4k where I really feel some oddness (though only if i drop throttle and come back on-- say, engine braking before a corner then wanting to pick back up).

Can't remember what my WOT voltage was on the TPS, but this definitely helps with some solid numbers rather than "Just rotate it a little" - Thanks CyclopsRider!
Yes, mine is 100% stock

2009 Blue Versys - 3,000 miles
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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 04:32 PM
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...Bike ran a little better though i could still feel a small shudder around 4-6k, as usual. It's minimized but not squashed. Though at this point, i feel like i'm being too sensitive about it.
Mongoose - do you know anyone else w/ a comparable model Versys that you could maybe swap rides on, for a comparison?


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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 09:24 PM Thread Starter
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Mongoose - do you know anyone else w/ a comparable model Versys that you could maybe swap rides on, for a comparison?

He sold it and bought a BMW ._.
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