Burnt Stator/ Stator Testing - Page 2 - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #21 of 310 (permalink) Old 09-07-2011, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
When there is no demand on the battery, the voltage is shunted directly to the ground on the OE style shunt type R/R. In the Series style, the voltage regulator turns the charging system off. Therefore there is no magnetic field between the stator and rotor, reducing engine load and heat build up.

http://www.compufire.com/faq.html#Q10
Curious... how do you remove the magnetic field from a stator assembly with permanent magnets?... I mean, short of physically removing the magnets...

Richard

'14 Versys 650 (Green)
'14Honda CB500x
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post #22 of 310 (permalink) Old 09-07-2011, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFZ6 View Post
Curious... how do you remove the magnetic field from a stator assembly with permanent magnets?... I mean, short of physically removing the magnets...

Richard
Yeah, I meant to get back to that part which doesn't apply to permanent magnet alternators...
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post #23 of 310 (permalink) Old 09-07-2011, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by CanadianFZ6 View Post
Invader, if it were you.... would you consider replacing the stock R/R with the The VRRPM3 series regulator as a preventative measure? The versys has a 3 wire ac lead, right? In your opinion would this help the stock stator last longer? I am considering replacing my stock R/R on my 2010 before I have stator problems...

Richard
I am doing it. I'll measure the generator cover temperature under different conditions, before and after the switch. Yes, Versys has a 3 wire AC lead. It will reduce the load and heat produced at the stator, thus extending its service life.

-SHUNT vs. SERIES R/R

This is a simplified explanation of the difference between
• SHUNT TYPE R/R (like OE or FET based)
• SERIES type R/R (like COMPUFIRE)
•All metric R/R’s for 3 phase Permanent Magnet generators like the GS are shunt type.
•Applies to OEM
•Applies to FET based like FH012AA (MOSFET)

SERIES does not require the stator to flow as much current and has 1/3 the power dissipation as the conventional SHUNT. Benefits in reduced stator current and heating are evident from this explanation:

[
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post #24 of 310 (permalink) Old 09-07-2011, 10:14 PM
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Well, the heat produced by the shunt controlled stator is much greater than the engine oil trying to cool it, even with the Thermo-Bob allowing a quicker warmup, and an up to normal, stable and desirable 212F+ oil temperature. The maxed-out shunt controlled stator is cooking itself from its own produced heat... In demanding high speeds/slow traffic in hot ambient temperatures, an oil cooler can then provide additional required cooling.
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post #25 of 310 (permalink) Old 09-08-2011, 02:06 AM
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This guy in San Diego upgrades and redesigns stators for KLRs.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=722362

Maybe he'll be interested to take a look at Versys if there are members in that area.

Sent a email in reference to Delta verses Y Dec.2, 2016 Onewizard
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post #26 of 310 (permalink) Old 09-08-2011, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
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In demanding high speeds/slow traffic in hot ambient temperatures, an oil cooler can then provide additional required cooling.
Makes me wonder if I should run my PIAAs while I am on the freeway.

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post #27 of 310 (permalink) Old 09-08-2011, 04:53 PM
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Makes me wonder if I should run my PIAAs while I am on the freeway.
It won't make any difference. Stator's output is always at maximum/rpm with stock shunt type R/R.
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post #28 of 310 (permalink) Old 09-12-2011, 07:48 AM
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So I'll measure generator cover and R/R temperatures, and charging voltage...
I think that measuring the stator current would probably give you a better indication of the difference between the shunt & series units.
.

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post #29 of 310 (permalink) Old 11-02-2011, 08:01 PM
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In 40F ambient temperature, my generator (stator) cover reads up to 230F which is about as hot as left cylinder and about 30 degrees hotter than right cylinder's outer surface. Clutch cover and oil pan are a bit below 200F... It'll be interesting to see if the left cylinder's temp will drop along with generator cover temp with a series type R/R compared to stock shunt type R/R. Heat radiating from stator may be bleeding off up in left cylinder and assisting in its higher operating temperature.

I'll also check for any charging voltage differences.
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post #30 of 310 (permalink) Old 11-02-2011, 11:51 PM
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check out these FLIR images for temp changes....you can also replace the steel mount for the r/r with a larger and thicker aluminum plate with heat sink compound on the mating surfaces and solder your connections from stator to r/r.
http://badweatherbikers.com/buell/me...tml?1312566505

here's another take on the problem from triumphrat.net
Now on to the alternative R/R replacement

- as aforementioned this is a good preventive upgrade measure with a better component, not necessarily limited to replacement on failure. Either way, process is the same.

Best widely available R/R on the market today is the Shindengen FH012AA used on the late (06+) Yamaha FJR, 07+ Yamaha R1 among others
What makes it better is that is a MOSFET controlled device rather than the crude SCR shunt type that is on most bikes until recently and also is a 50A rated device.

good source for connectors for FH series r/r's
http://easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__...onnectors.html
MUCH better voltage regulation and runs cooler too due to more efficient devices and control circuitry.

The SCR shunt type consumes more energy in the Regulator itself than the bike is using and dumps a ton of current into the heatsink (feel yours & just see how hot those things run!!!! - don't touch it - you'll burn yourself - seriously!) The problem is exacerbated because their efficiency goes even lower when they get HOT so it's a vicious circle. Heat is the number 1 killer of these devices.
Incidentally its a misconception that shunt type work harder with increased load i.e. higher-wattage lights, heated vests etc - actually, the higher the load on the output, the less work the shunt regulator does in dumping that excess energy and will actually run cooler!!

The FET has extremely low resistance in conducting state and this results in a lower dissipated power from the device while conducting load current, as opposed to the SCR which shunts the maximum current across a significant volt drop, resulting in a higher dissipated power - and resulting temperature, much more so than the FET device.


You can install this unit on your Triumph Sprint, S3, Daytona, TT600, Tiger; Suzuki TL, SV 650, SV1K;
or indeed ANY bike that has discreet three-phase stator and R/R arrangement.
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post #31 of 310 (permalink) Old 11-03-2011, 12:38 AM
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Now available series type R/R allow for a cooler runing stator compared to OEM shunt type R/R, including MOSFET.

Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
A MOSFET R/R may be more efficient and stable than the stock unit, but it's still a shunt type. A series type R/R does not require the stator to flow as much current, and has 1/3 of the power dissipation compared to shunt type (like OE or MOSFET based) R/R.

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com...R_Tutorial.pdf

Cooler running stator: http://badweatherbikers.com/buell/me...tml?1312566505
Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
I am doing it. I'll measure the generator cover temperature under different conditions, before and after the switch. Yes, Versys has a 3 wire AC lead. It will reduce the load and heat produced at the stator, thus extending its service life.

-SHUNT vs. SERIES R/R

This is a simplified explanation of the difference between
• SHUNT TYPE R/R (like OE or FET based)
• SERIES type R/R (like COMPUFIRE)
•All metric R/R’s for 3 phase Permanent Magnet generators like the GS are shunt type.
•Applies to OEM
•Applies to FET based like FH012AA (MOSFET)

SERIES does not require the stator to flow as much current and has 1/3 the power dissipation as the conventional SHUNT. Benefits in reduced stator current and heating are evident from this explanation:

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com...R_Tutorial.pdf
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post #32 of 310 (permalink) Old 11-15-2011, 11:28 PM
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the series r/r sounds good but the preferred mounting for airflow could be a problem. I'll probably go with a mosfet unit because of this and keep the stock mounting. from roadstercycle.com-

"IMPORTANT!!! Series Regulators unload your stator but the heat has to go somewhere, the regulator is where it ends up!! These series regulators have to be in the airflow so get them out in front if you can. Don't put them under your seat or tail section they need cooling."

Questions? jack@roadstercycle.com Evenings after 5PM Pacific time call: Jack 310-766-5222.
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post #33 of 310 (permalink) Old 11-16-2011, 02:21 PM
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My bike is an 07, with 65,000 kms. The charging system is not working, might be the stator or might be the R/R. (It's not the battery as I have replaced that.) I have a couple of questions that I was hoping someone could help with.

1. How do know which component is faulty?
2. What does a burnt stator look like?
3. Does the engine oil need to be drained to take off the alternator cover?
4. And finally, if the stator is working at full capacity at all times, how can a weak battery cause the stator to fail more quickly (maybe I haven't understood the theory around this).

Thanks for your help.

Doug
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post #34 of 310 (permalink) Old 11-17-2011, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomla View Post
the series r/r sounds good but the preferred mounting for airflow could be a problem. I'll probably go with a mosfet unit because of this and keep the stock mounting. from roadstercycle.com-

"IMPORTANT!!! Series Regulators unload your stator but the heat has to go somewhere, the regulator is where it ends up!! These series regulators have to be in the airflow so get them out in front if you can. Don't put them under your seat or tail section they need cooling."
http://roadstercycle.com/Roadstercyc...Regulators.htm

"Series Regulators unload your stator..."

It's the stator that we're concerned about, and a series regulator should drop its operating temperature and tendency to cook itself out... A shunt type of regulator passes current at all times. When the load doesn't need the extra current, it “shunts” it to ground while maintaining maximum current draw on generator/stator. A series regulator passes current only when the load needs it, and actually runs cooler and/or more efficiently... Regulators mounted snuggly behind body panels, away from moving air may get too hot, but it should be sufficiently vented on the Versys' R/R mount. I'll give it a try and measure its operating temperature as well.

I got a stator cover temp of up to 245F city riding in 50F ambient temperature. That's hotter than any other engine surface including left cylinder and head. Crankcase immediately behind stator remained at near 200F or lower as other parts of crankcase.
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post #35 of 310 (permalink) Old 11-17-2011, 04:53 PM
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An update, for those who are interested.
I removed the alternator cover (after draining the oil - unnecessary for this purpose, but it was time anyway). The stator is bolted to the cover, so I took the whole assembly to my dealer to order a new one (stator). They tested the stator and confirmed it was pooched. OEM stator is $330, but they could also source an aftermarket unit for $165 (good news). This will be the first stator for a Versys or Ninja 650 that they have had to order. This dealer is where I bought the bike, and they sell a lot of these machines, so from their perspective, at least, the stator failure is not a common problem. I just thought some might like to know.
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post #36 of 310 (permalink) Old 11-24-2011, 12:04 PM
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So, I have an 08 V with less than 3K miles on it. I am planning? a longish ride into Mexico after new years. I don't want to get on the outskirts of BFE and have a stator failure and have to worry about getting it fixed. I have a friend who took his DL650 Wee to Panama and lost his stator. He was down a month trying to get parts shipped in and fixed at god only knows what cost.
I installed a voltmeter on the dash and hopefully will get a warning if she starts to fail. But I would rather spend the hundred or so dollars to install the (series?) R/R and have some piece of mind.
Questions:
Which R/R to buy? I am leaning toward Invaders' recommendation after reading this thread. I've put a mud guard in to keep the crap off the R/R.
How many have done this as a preventive measure and is there a video or such to explain the change? It doesn't seem to complicated IMO.
Thanks
Olegeezer
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post #37 of 310 (permalink) Old 11-30-2011, 08:42 AM
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So it turns out that Oregon Motorcycle Parts' "VRRPM series R/R" are actually shunt type, just like the original... We simply have to go with the only series type R/R available. The well tested, compared and documented Compu-Fire 55402 40 Amp Series Type R/R.

When the engine is running with stock shunt R/R, full alternator current is flowing in the stator, regulator, and their connections. With a series R/R, only the necessary load current runs at any time. The result is less stator heating when operated below 2/3 of full electrical load. The series R/R itself produces 20% more heat than a shunt type R/R only when at full generator output.



Cooler running stator: http://badweatherbikers.com/buell/me...tml?1312566505

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post #38 of 310 (permalink) Old 11-30-2011, 10:22 AM
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"A by product of the series regulator is that the overall mpg will improve slightly (with the caveat described below). Since the engine is no longer supplying wasted power to the shunt regulator, that translates directly to less energy drawn from the gasoline under otherwise identical conditions..."

"I have 10,000 miles on the Compufire now. It does not get hot at all. I'm very happy with it... The power taken from the stator is calculated as current squared times internal resistance of the stator so it will be much less for the series regulator as it draws less than half the current of the shunt type."
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post #39 of 310 (permalink) Old 11-30-2011, 10:36 PM
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Regulator/rectifier # 21066-1127 was replaced with # 21066-0705 at some point in time...
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post #40 of 310 (permalink) Old 12-01-2011, 10:07 AM
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Compu-Fire 55402 R/R dimensions: 3.5" x 2.5".
So the mounting holes' center to center is about 3.00" (76.2mm), and should be easy enough to adapt. Stock is 70mm center to center.

posplayr: "Wheat dog has confirmed a nominal 30 degF drop in (engine) operating temp for an 83 GS1100ED with 1166 kit after making this change over to the Compufire-Fire R/R... Bottom line this is a very nice unit, my bike is running even cooler just going 4-5K RPM and I can put and hold my gloved hand over the stator cover (which was painful before).

Just to summarize the issues; Most all motorcycle charging systems (except some alternator equipped bikes) use Permanent Magnet (PM) multi phase generators and the ubiquitous SHUNT regulator. The SHUNT regulator is easy to implement and is cheap. That is the only thing good about it. The PM generator is capable of producing power in relation to the square of the RPM but only up to limit in proportion to the magnetic strength of the rotor. The SHUNT regulator shorts the stator out when too much voltage is going to the electrical system. At high RPM's the stator is producing the max power as limited by the rotor magnetic Field. It produces a lot of heat. For example for the GS1100ED I have I measured about a 250W drop in power which equates to about 30 degree drop in operating temperature for an 1166 inline 4.

The PM generator with shunt regulation is a brute force implementation with a delicate balance to keep it functioning and avoiding frying the stator too fast. A SERIES r/r solves these problems and is more efficient than even an alternator."

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...160360&page=17

The MOSFET term gets thrown around a lot, in an imprecise way that I think is going to confuse a lot of people.

When sorting through all of this information, it's important to realize that the word MOSFET is not really that helpful in describing the regulator that the merchant is selling.

The term "MOSFET" describes a particular type of semiconductor -- a generic Metal-Oxide-Semiconductor Field-Effect Transistor. This kind of generic transistor can be found in all sorts of devices, including shunt regulators, series regulators, and switching regulators. From a practical standpoint, when a supplier is marketing their Vreg to you using the term MOSFET, their pitch doesn't really give you any useful information. You'd probably be best of ignoring the word MOSFET and looking at other details.

When sorting through all of this information, try to recognize the deceptive marketing practices of some of the merchants for what they are; Some suppliers are leveraging the word "MOSFET" to try to exploit the confusion that it will cause for many people.

"MOSFET" sounds fancy, and the expectation of some merchants is that using this term will make some potential customers think that their regulator is something more special than it really is. This is particularly true of Shindengen, who uses the term to try to put lipstick on that pig that is their shunt regulator. They try to use the word "MOSFET" to blur the distinction in the mind of the customer between their shunt regulator and a true series regulator, or a switching regulator.

Don't be fooled when a manufacturer hypes the word "MOSFET" in describing their shunt regulator -- they're hoping that someone who doesn't know any better will confuse their shunt regulator with a more desirable, more electronically sophisticated series regulator and buy their product.

You probably already realize from all of the posts on this forum that you want to avoid a shunt regulator at all costs, and buy a true series regulator. Be careful so that some merchants' don't pull the wool over your eyes when they tell you that their vreg uses MOSFET. What you really want to know is whether the design you're looking at is a shunt, series, or switching regulator.
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