Engine Not Firing - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #1 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 09:07 AM Thread Starter
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Unhappy Engine Not Firing

Alright, so this began a number of weeks ago and I've been working on the bike on and off since then. So here is my issue:

Came home after letting the Versys sit for 2 weeks. It had trouble starting at first, odd since I had left it longer with no issue in the past (brushed it off as a cold start). Rode out to meet a friend, then wouldn't start coming home. Bike would sometimes fire up momentarily (like 5-10 secs) then quit as if I had cut it off. Has done this ever since.

Relevant Info
- Fuel pump works and is actually fairly new
- Replaced fuel and added Seafoam to help stabilize
- Spark plugs have about 5k miles on them & are clean
- Battery is charged & new
- All dials and lights come on
- Starter motor & engine crank
- Stick coil resistance is up to spec
- Injectors are clean and click when activated (can't remove them because factory loctite'd the hell out of them)
- Versys is a 2011 with 20k miles (bought new)

After working through checking plugs and injectors, my next guess is maybe the engine is not getting enough oxygen. The air filter was filthy and had way too many miles on it. New one is in the mail and will be replaced this weekend. Perhaps a sensor is on the fritz? ECU is not giving any signal to indicate that though. Also planning to buy a spark tester to make sure it is actually receiving a spark.

Hoping to get 'er up and moving again in time for the nice riding weather here in Florida.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts/advise/ideas
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post #2 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 10:04 AM
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Bike been on it's side ?

When you say start up for 5 to 10 seconds, in neutral or in gear?
The very first thing I would check is the tip over switch.
Just a thought, has the bike been on it's side recently? The reason I ask is the tip over switch if bad, will give you similar symptoms, this is a signal sent to the ecu, bike will turn over but not start. I would also check the kick stand switch, as it acts as a kill switch, same thing, no error codes, normally you wouldn't be able to start it in gear or shift into gear.
Last, I would check your frame ground and also your engine ground, when I say check, remove the mounting bolt and make sure no oxide is present, I use a copper based anti seize on the aluminum, also good dielectric grease will also work, get a red scotch brite pad, use it for removing oxide, something like your pot scrubber green one.
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Last edited by onewizard; 11-03-2016 at 11:33 PM.
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post #3 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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It runs for a short time in neutral with the kick-stand down.
The last time it was on its side was about 6 months ago.
I'll check the fall switch and the kickstand switch to be sure. I wouldn't have thought to check the grounds, but it makes sense that they could cause starting issues. I'll add all of that to my list of things to check!

I'll let you know how it goes when I work on it again this weekend, Thanks!

Last edited by Uyerion; 11-01-2016 at 04:02 PM.
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post #4 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 07:28 PM
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I'll take frame/engine grounds for 500, Alex.

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Originally Posted by onewizard View Post
Last, I would check your frame ground and also your engine ground, when I say check, remove the mounting bolt and make sure no oxide is present, I use a copper based anti seize on the aluminum, aslo good dielectric gerease will also work, get a red scotch brite pad, use it for removing oxide, something like your pot scrubber green one.
I'll vote for frame ground. I resurrected a rototiller (yeah, I know) that suffered from PIBTS (Push It Back To Shop when it started running intermittently) and I had the sense to check the engine/frame ground first thing, and voila! fixed.

FWIW. and no allusions that Versyii are related to rototillers. other than their ability to churn dirt once in a while....
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Last edited by aboyandhisversys; 11-01-2016 at 08:23 PM.
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post #5 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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Replaced that air filter, cleaned the frame and engine grounds, and applied dielectric grease to both. The frame ground was badly rusted under the bolt. Bike is up and running again!!
I ran the bike for 10 mins on then 10 mins off 4 times to make sure it wasn't having starting issues. Gonna go some short rides around the parking lot tomorrow, then I'll be satisfied.
Gonna do some further checks this weekend as well.

Thank you onewizard and aboyandhisversys!!

PS: I'm gonna keep this thread open until i'm sure my problems are over, haha.
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post #6 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 08:29 AM Thread Starter
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Woke up this morning to try running it for a couple more 10 min cycles... It's giving me problems again. I may add some more fuel to make sure the fuel pump is happy, double check the grounds to make sure I cleaned them well, and then check the fall and kickstand switches.

Though I must say that it is starting up more consistently, but still for just a few seconds.
I'll be looking more into it tomorrow.

What do you guys think?

Last edited by Uyerion; 11-04-2016 at 08:52 AM.
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post #7 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 10:35 AM
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Check Wiring Drawing

I haven't had time, planning my longest one day ride so have priorities. Couple things to suggest:
1 -try turning key on, wait 10 seconds turn off, turn on second time , this time start bike, note the amount of time it runs before quitting.
2-check manual for testing tip over switch, as that is what I think is possible
3- kick stand switch would only come into play if putting in gear caused it to quit
4- if the bike is stored outside, you could have a bad kill switch, as it controls the stick coils.

I will take tip over switch for $5000
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post #8 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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It is stored outside (apartment life), and I actually happen to have a new throttle housing with switches, so i'll replace that today.
I'll read more into the tip-over switch so I can check that today or this weekend.
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post #9 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
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UPDATE:
- Engine cut-off switch wasn't the issue, but it's nice to have the new one on anyway
- The input voltage for the vehicle-down sensor is perfectly in spec (it reads at 5V and spec range is 4.75-5.25), so the wiring is good.
- Looking for an adapter to check the output voltage. If anyone knows of a good in-line voltmeter, a way to check the voltage while it is connected to the bike, or a way to bypass the vehicle-down sensor (to see if it's the problem) let me know!

Last edited by Uyerion; 11-07-2016 at 09:13 AM.
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post #10 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-08-2016, 12:08 AM
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And The Fun Begins

You mentioned a service manual, have you tried chapter 3-36, error codes, User Mode and Dealer Mode 2? Several things aren't covered, one of them is the ECU relay, so rather than ripping apart and replacing parts, check to see if any codes exist.

Have given your problem more thought, you mentioned "ECU is not giving any signal to indicate that though." Does this mean no error codes?

Couple things, one you may have already found the problem. I would suggest you remove the frame grounds, check each wire crimp, try pushing the wire into and pulling the wire out of the crimp, also look for corrosion. I have seen what looks like a perfectly fine crimp,actually loose wire inside, a little ambient temperature change and it works, next day cooler, no go. Another trick, if you have crimping pliers, re-crimp each connection, make sure the crimp connection surface is clean before you bolt it back on the frame, recommend using red scotch brite pad for cleaning.

One other thing if that doesn't work, there has been a history of some years with a wiring clearance problem, up near the front of the gas tank, to check this will involve removing the gas tank, CAUTION the fuel connection on MK-1 and MK-2 are plastic, very easy to break, you mentioned a new fuel pump, if you changed it I am sure I can stop here, as you already know how.

What you want to look for is left of the gas tank rubber mounts, on some bikes the gas tank rubbed against the main wiring harness, and eventually wore through, in your case checking the fuel level, slight movement of the gas tank could have been enough to clear a short at this point, later the next day everything had cooled down and harness is shorted again.
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Last edited by onewizard; 11-08-2016 at 11:00 AM.
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post #11 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, I was talking about not receiving any error codes from the ECU. But, after reading it again, it apparently needs to be in 'Dealer Mode 1' to display the actual codes, otherwise the FI light just turns on. I'll look at that again.

The wire crimps are a good point, I'll double check those today.

The wiring harness is in tact. I've already looked at that when I had the tank and air box off in order to check the plugs/coils.
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post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 06:09 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE:

- Crimping is good on grounds and no signs of corrosion. Added a new thin layer of dielectric grease to make sure they stay that way.

- Double checked the location you mentioned on the wiring harness. The area is a bit squished, but outer later of the harness is still unbroken. Is there any way to remedy the clearance issue?

- Looked into changing the ECU mode, and the wire that is used to do this is very well sealed in a clear plastic sleeve and filled with a clear sealant (AKA it's not coming off). I could cut it off but I would like to have something to cover it back up again before i do so. The FI light is not turning on though, neither before or after I attempt to start it, which means that there shouldn't be any issue.

Also, someone mentioned to me that this could be a fueling issue. I'm skeptical since the bike was able to run consistently the other day, that tells me that the ignition and fuel systems are working (unless I'm mistaken). Right now my belief is that I'm having an electrical issue that is causing it to not want to turn on or not for long.

PS: If you would like me to include any pictures of anything just let me know. Also, thanks again for taking the time to help me out =)
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Last edited by onewizard; 11-11-2016 at 07:33 PM.
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post #13 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 07:21 PM
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Fi Light

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uyerion View Post
UPDATE:

- Crimping is good on grounds and no signs of corrosion. Also, thanks again for taking the time to help me out =)
You may have solved the problem,

Couple things that you should notice after keying on, first 3 seconds==the fuel pump should run, the F1 light should be on, the sub-throttle servos should move**I have copied out of section 3 DFI, remote possibility is the ECU relay, however you need to prove the ECU is being powered, before I dig into that I need to know that what I just described isn't happening--much of section 3 refers back to replacing the ECU after certain test failures, I like to prove that is the case.
Once I hear back we will continue**so below is what I copied and pasted:

The DFI used on the 650R features a FI light on the Speedometer face. This light has three modes of operation; User Mode, Diagnostic Mode 1, Diagnostic Mode 2.


USER MODE

At KEY ON the ECU completes a self test and then checks sensors and actuators. During this time the FI light will be lit. While the FI light is ON you will hear the fuel pump run and the sub-throttle servos move. The tachometer needle swings full scale and back. At the end of the testing (about 3 seconds), the oil pressure light will come on indicating a normal KEY ON, ENGINE OFF event.

If the ECU detects any actuator feedback or sensor input OUT OF RANGE, the FI light will be set ON. It should be noted that the FI light can be set to a false ON state by radio interference, though in practice it would take a very strong local signal to do so. The ECU continues to monitor all sensors as long as the key is ON. If any signal is detected as OUT OF RANGE, the FI light is set ON. The FI light will remain lit as long as the defect is present.

One of two things will happen when the FI light is ON; either the ECU will go into LIMP mode or the ECU will prevent fuel injection, ignition, and/or starter circuit operation until the fault is cleared. The severity of the fault will determine which of the two will happen. For instance, if the ECU cannot detect crank position, it will prevent engine operation altogether. On the other hand, if the ECU cannot determine Intake Air Temperature, it will initiate LIMP mode (Kawasaki calls it FAIL-SAFE mode), assume an IAT temperature of 40C (104F), and allow the engine to operate at that parameter.

The FI light will go OFF after repair or if the sensor comes back into range for any reason. The ECU will resume normal operation. However, the event is memorized.

The FI light will blink continuously to indicate the vehicle-down sensor is active. When detected, the ECU will shut-off the fuel pump, fuel injectors, starter and ignition. The FI light will remain flashing and the motorcycle will not start until the vehicle-down sensor goes inactive and the ECU is reset by cycling the key OFF.

ON at KEY ON, then OFF OFF = normal operation ON = fault detected BLINK = vehicle down


DIAGNOSTIC MODE 1

Under the seat, along the right sub-frame rail is an orange/black wire with a bullet connector. This is the self-diagnosis terminal. In order to read out the CURRENT Service Codes, ground that wire with the KEY ON. The FI light will begin to flash codes. There will be a 5 second delay and then the codes begin. The first flash is always a LONG (1 sec) followed by either LONG or SHORT (0.5 sec) flashes. LONG flashes indicate TENS and short flashes ONES. One LONG followed by two SHORT = 12. Two LONG, one SHORT = 21. Three LONG, two short = 32, etc. There is an interval of 1.5 seconds between TENS and ONES. There is a 3 second interval between codes.
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Last edited by onewizard; 11-11-2016 at 07:41 PM.
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post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 08:57 PM
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Question

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Originally Posted by Uyerion View Post
- Fuel pump works and is actually fairly new
Is it a new Kawasaki OEM pump? Who replaced it, and why?

onewizard is a "Super Moderator" ?! For real? Should he not be named: "Super Regulator/Rectifier" ?
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Last edited by invader; 11-11-2016 at 09:13 PM.
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post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader View Post
Is it a new Kawasaki OEM pump? Who replaced it, and why?
Yeah, its an new OEM pump that I ordered from a local Kawi dealer. I replaced it about 2 years ago because I was naive and ran the Versys on low fuel a few too many times, consequently killing the original one. I've made it a point to not let the fuel run low since then.
I actually caught this problem in the same fashion onewizard described; I couldn't hear the fuel pump on startup.

In response to onewizard:

I'm pretty certain that it is running through all of the usual paces on startup. I'll double check today and let you know.
Also, I don't think this would cause any issues, but I'll include it to be thorough. I have been removing the battery after each day I attempt to start it in order to recharge it, since cranking the engine puts quite a drain on it.

Last edited by Uyerion; 11-12-2016 at 10:16 AM.
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post #16 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 12:34 PM
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...onewizard is a "Super Moderator" ?! For real? Should he not be named: "Super Regulator/Rectifier" ?
Yup - he's a SUPER MODERATOR, w/ a "Super Regulator/Rectifier" specialty-degree...!


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post #17 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE:

- When keying the motorcycle on with the engine stop switch in the Stop position: sub-throttle servos move, FI light comes on then off, no fuel pump sound
- When keying the motorcycle on with the engine stop switch in the Run position: sub-throttle servos move, FI light comes on then off, fuel pump sound

I'm not sure if this is normal behavior. I don't recall this being the case before my problems, but I may be paranoid.
Also, while I was testing the above combinations, the servos sometimes seemed to fritz out a bit. I was not turning the bike on and off in quick succession.

Last edited by Uyerion; 11-12-2016 at 03:44 PM.
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post #18 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 11:00 PM
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What Next??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uyerion View Post
UPDATE:

- When keying the motorcycle on with the engine stop switch in the Stop position: sub-throttle servos move, FI light comes on then off, no fuel pump sound
- When keying the motorcycle on with the engine stop switch in the Run position: sub-throttle servos move, FI light comes on then off, fuel pump sound

I'm not sure if this is normal behavior. I don't recall this being the case before my problems, but I may be paranoid.
Also, while I was testing the above combinations, the servos sometimes seemed to fritz out a bit. I was not turning the bike on and off in quick succession.
Question is, is it ECU malfunction, corroded connector, fuel pump. Have you tried adding more fuel to the tank?
Where I am having trouble, is it ran for 4 ten minute intervals, too bad we couldn't have run under load, now it won't even start.

Before I would do anything else, I would try seeing if there is a error code stored.

If not, there is a test for checking the stick coil primary winding using a meter, as the ECU provides this pulse.
You can unplug the fuel pump connector, place a straight pin or piece of telephone wire in the back side of the connector on the positive wire, plug the connector back in.
The plan is to see if the fuel pump is being powered throughout the starting process ( connect a meter from ground to this pump positive, you will see it cycle for 3 seconds and should come on steady during and after starting, there is a second place to check if this fails, as the ECU controls the fuel pump, however it is through the fuel pump relay , so ECU could be calling for fuel but relay could be pooched, the 4 ten minute runs could have been a lucky start )and remains powered even after the bike quits after running 2 seconds.

So when it comes down to it , fuel & ignition= run
So the fuel pump is the easiest to prove, start there, having run for 40 minutes I doubt it is the pump itself, strongly suspect the pump relay, a bad contact.

One thing you could do is power the fuel pump directly, injectors and ignition are controlled by the ECU, that would be a quick test, to prove the problem is in fuel delivery/ electrical of pump circuit.
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post #19 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE:

Sorry for the delay; exam and thanksgiving plans held me up.

- Checked the Relay Box. Measured the un-powered resistances and the powered resistances for all relays. They all check out, so fuel pump relay is good.
- Relay box plugs look good and clean as well.

- Looked into the how to check the fuel pump at startup. Apparently the operation I described earlier is how it should be, so startup sequence is fine.

- I'll be getting some more fuel, since I'm running a little low after those 10 minute intervals.

- Haven't had the chance to check the past error codes, but plan to do that when I come back from TN.

- Also going to read into inspecting the fuel pump.

For sure, the next time I get it to start up I'll be taking it for a ride around the parking lot and perhaps onto the street nearby to test it under load.

Question: Should the fuel pump be turning on as I press the ignition switch? I figure that could be an easy thing to check as well.
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post #20 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 08:05 PM
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Fuel Pump / ECU driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uyerion View Post
UPDATE:

Sorry for the delay; exam and thanksgiving plans held me up.

- Checked the Relay Box. Measured the un-powered resistances and the powered resistances for all relays. They all check out, so fuel pump relay is good.
- Relay box plugs look good and clean as well.

- Looked into the how to check the fuel pump at startup. Apparently the operation I described earlier is how it should be, so startup sequence is fine.

- I'll be getting some more fuel, since I'm running a little low after those 10 minute intervals.

- Haven't had the chance to check the past error codes, but plan to do that when I come back from TN.

- Also going to read into inspecting the fuel pump.

For sure, the next time I get it to start up I'll be taking it for a ride around the parking lot and perhaps onto the street nearby to test it under load.

Question: Should the fuel pump be turning on as I press the ignition switch? I figure that could be an easy thing to check as well.
That is one question I can't answer, some circuits are disabled during starting, as a example say you had the bike running came to a stop light and stalled the motor, the headlight is on and will remain on, however the way the headlight relay is connected, the start solenoid will cause the headlight relay to drop out during the starting process.

The key on sequence we have covered before, what is unknown is after the fuel pump test sequence, what does the ECU decide to do during starting, and does it also need feedback from the crankshaft position sensor to maintain the pump running.
That is the main reason I suggested to hardwire the fuel pump , before you spend hours trying to find the fault. ECU also controls the stick coils. So bottom line, gas and spark cause fire, However, injectors, and ignition are controlled by ECU along with fuel pump, my thought about the hardwire of the pump, is this is a power higher current load using a relay,this has been a problem for several people on this forum, the load contact of the relay becomes worn to the point it is a hit and miss situation, however you did state the test sequence worked.

This is one of them puzzlers .
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