Engine Not Firing - Page 2 - Kawasaki Versys Forum
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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 08:15 PM Thread Starter
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I'll start with hard-wiring the fuel pump when I get back then so we can rule that out! I had checked the stick coil windings before and they are up to spec.
I'll probably take some time over the break to read more and see what else I might come up with. This really is one of those things that keeps me up at night, haha.

The process of figuring this out has run me to the end of my knowledge with the inner workings of the Versys, so I'm really glad that there are people on this forum who I can work it out with =). At this point I'm happy for any second opinions I can get.
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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-22-2016, 10:00 AM
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Other Tests

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I'll start with hard-wiring the fuel pump when I get back then so we can rule that out! I had checked the stick coil windings before and they are up to spec.
I'll probably take some time over the break to read more and see what else I might come up with. This really is one of those things that keeps me up at night, haha.

The process of figuring this out has run me to the end of my knowledge with the inner workings of the Versys, so I'm really glad that there are people on this forum who I can work it out with =). At this point I'm happy for any second opinions I can get.
There are other tests, I like to rule out major power components, work backwards. Too many times I have had people try troubleshooting a control problem, and all controls were function properly, they then checked voltages , they also were correct.

So to understand electrical, the very best test for power components, that is say a electric 3 phase motor that isn't functioning, and you checked for all 3 phases using a voltmeter, everything was as it should be. The very best test is using a ammeter, on AC or DC, DC requires a special Hall effect unless your meter can handle the inrush current / running current ( magnetizing time constant for DC, run and inrush are very close to each other, except for inverters) ( for AC, inrush can be 10X run current for a motor, also similar to locked rotor current)

The reason ammeter is because work done= current X voltage=wattage. You can have voltage present but no work ( if no current flow, or phase loss)


To check the stick coils or injectors requires removal of the gas tank, ther are other ways if you have a piercing probe for your meter, however the wire size coming from the ECU is small, and I am usually reluctant to use that probe unless it is a last resort , because I could shear strands of copper and the insulation can allow moisture in through the piercing , as there are connector/test assemblies made for testing the stick coils and injectors in run mode.

So I want to rule out the contact of the fuel pump relay by hard wiring the pump.

Before I would attempt the following, I would be checking error codes:

Next would be testing the stick coil primary during start up/ run

Same with injectors

Glad to help, someday what you find may help others!
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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE:

It's been a little while but I haven't given up yet!
Alright, so I haven't had a chance to hardwire the fuel pump yet (I don't have any wire thin enough at the moment). But I wanted to do something before I leave it as I travel to family for Christmas.

What I did do was the 2 simple tests to determine fuel or spark problem; namely pulling the plugs to look for spark, and then trying to start with starter fluid.
So here is what I found from these:

1) Both plugs have a white spark (good)
2) Both will spark consistently as I hold the ignition button; but if I release it and try again, no spark until I shut it off completely then on again. (Not 100% sure but this seemed to be the behavior)
3) Engine would not start with starter fluid (I injected it directly into the throttle head)
4) I also noticed some of the starter fluid come back out of the throttle head as I cranked it.

Could this be indicative of a valve problem?

After doing that I went ahead and applied some Boeshield T-9 to the keyhole in the gas cap, the foot-hold joints, and gave the bike a good cleaning before I covered it up to leave it for 2-3 weeks.

Last edited by Uyerion; 12-13-2016 at 04:39 PM.
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 05:34 PM
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ECU Controls Ignition

Well that is a positive result , the ECU has a chain of command, after releasing the start button, chain of command , not running so inhibit spark. What I don't know is if there is a difference between trying to start and being unsuccessful , as stalling the motor does't need to be keyed off to restart.

This may require professional help i.e. Kawasaki shop . Some of the trouble shooting in the manual brought a smile to my face. Heading;Starter Motor rotating but engine doesn't turn over answer; vehicle down sensor coming off.

So quite a list:crankshaft sensor trouble;ECU trouble ( unless you have one kicking around an expensive method of trouble shooting);ignition switch or engine stop switch shorted ( I don't think so in your case); Main 30A or ignition fuse blown ( again not your case), Air box, are you sure everything is back in place, all hoses connected , sensors in place? I would suggest to wait and see if Invader has anything to add to this, but I don't think spraying starter fluid would work, in fact that is a dangerous thing to try, then again if you have fire and theft , accidents happen mind you if I felt that way I would have suggested that a long time ago. You might be graduating before you get this running again
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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 05:50 PM
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DFI System Troubleshooting Guide

Check the manual, I am looking at the 2015, but all but the oxygen sensor applies to MK-1 and MK-2. section 3-31 gives symptoms an sections to go to. The fuel pump comes up several times, also grounding of ECU. This section covers 5 pages, happy reading! Like before , this may be a professional fix.
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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 07:41 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, I'm beginning to think that taking it to a shop may be my best bet, luckily there is one pretty close, I was just hoping to save some money. But if it gets me riding again in a timely manner it is certainly worth it! That troubleshooting list is similar for my 2011 as well, and we've covered most of the stuff that seems likely already.

I also don't think that the US Versys has an oxygen sensor (if I remember correctly). I'll go ahead and read those sections though. If I'm going to be away I might as well be productive.

On another note, I had gotten the bike to start with starter fluid before, back when I was diagnosing my broken fuel pump (couple years ago). Worked well in fact, and didn't sound or feel strange.

Last edited by Uyerion; 12-13-2016 at 07:49 PM.
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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-14-2016, 11:04 AM
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Lot of folks don't like starting fluid..........I do believe it has it's uses when used properly (not on diesel engines however-preheaters cause a nasty reaction.)
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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE:

Dropped the Versys off at a shop this past weekend, hey should be slotting it in within the next few days. I'll post whatever their findings are!
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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 10:21 PM
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Lot of folks don't like starting fluid..........I do believe it has it's uses when used properly (not on diesel engines however-preheaters cause a nasty reaction.)
worked great on my old dozer (grumpiest beast ever when it was cold) just sprayed it on the air filter , not down the intake....
a can of starter spray on the filter and a small camp fire under the sump plate and it would start in two batterys or less VS. 6 batterys of cranking with just the fire

yes im a guy. and i have a husband
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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 08:32 AM
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As Much detail as Possible

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UPDATE:

Dropped the Versys off at a shop this past weekend, hey should be slotting it in within the next few days. I'll post whatever their findings are!
What you find, please take the time to write down all specific info as to what they found, I am going to compile this thread into the How To Forum, a considerable amount of time and effort has been imputed to this thread, the end result may help others on this forum. Almost like reading a good story, and it is winter here
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post #31 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-13-2017, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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We really did have an enigma on our hands

UPDATE:

Here is what the shop has found thus far,
1) All individual systems required for fire are functional (spark, fuel pump, injectors, etc.)
2) Purged the lines and it started up
3) Ran the Versys for about 3-4 miles and brought it back to the shop (at this point they called me to let me know they got it running, but wanted to do more tests to be sure)
4) Later that afternoon, Versys gave them our familiar "starts and cuts off after a few seconds" act
5) Tested it again (same afternoon), starts and runs as normal
6) Tested it the following morning, same cut-off act as before
7) They believe that the cut-offs are due to the bike starting and running briefly on solely the fuel that is in the line, then it wont start again until the fuel pump is triggered
8) They hooked it up to a diagnostic computer, and the ECU is not throwing any codes, nor does it have any past codes stored.

- After looking at it a bit more and some tests they believe that the fuel pump, even though it does its normal key-on routine, is not always running as it should during starting operations.
- They do not believe that the fuel pump is bad, but rather it is receiving bad signals (aka malfunctioning ECU)
- They are now working on contacting their mechanic contacts from Kawasaki to get their input, as well as contacting their sister dealers to see if any of them have a 2010 - 2014 Versys available that they can borrow an ECU from to confirm or eliminate that problem.
- I have found another store (that is not related to the one my Versys is at) that is selling a 2014 Versys, so I may stop by this weekend and see if I can convince them to let me borrow their ECU
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Last edited by Uyerion; 01-14-2017 at 06:56 AM.
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post #32 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-14-2017, 08:39 AM
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I did mention hardwiring the fuel pump in that post. I still would put my money on the fuel pump relay, although I think they would have checked that. Again it could be a bad ECU or corroded / oxidized connections on the ECU .
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post #33 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-14-2017, 09:00 AM
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No chance you put E85 in it right? Had a friend with a XT250 FI bike come in with similar problems.. sat for a month outside in the rain before being started again. Not only did it damage some of the fuel lines but also attracted a bit of water. Long shot but hey..

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post #34 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-15-2017, 03:28 PM Thread Starter
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No chance you put E85 in it right? Had a friend with a XT250 FI bike come in with similar problems.. sat for a month outside in the rain before being started again. Not only did it damage some of the fuel lines but also attracted a bit of water. Long shot but hey..
Nah, nothing like that. I had actually switched to using premium fuel when filling up for the slightly higher octane to keep things running smoothly.
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post #35 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-15-2017, 03:50 PM
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Nah, nothing like that. I had actually switched to using premium fuel when filling up for the slightly higher octane to keep things running smoothly.
E85 has an octane rating of 100-105.


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post #36 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-15-2017, 06:27 PM
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E85 has an octane rating of 100-105.
Yeah, but it's 85% ethanol...
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post #37 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 09:05 AM
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21 Crankshaft
Sensor
Crankshaft sensor must
send 22 signals (output
signal) to the ECU at
the one cranking.
If crankshaft sensor generates other than 22
signals, the engine stops by itself.
I park my V outside also, Look for excessive condensation in the oil
Hope this helps
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post #38 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 01:07 PM
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Yeah, but it's 85% ethanol...
Right. My point was the OP said he'd switched to premium to get a higher octane rating. This was in response to a question about whether or not he'd used E85 which has a higher octane rating than premium.


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post #39 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 03:34 PM
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Right. My point was the OP said he'd switched to premium to get a higher octane rating. This was in response to a question about whether or not he'd used E85 which has a higher octane rating than premium.
Sure, but my point was that it has 85% ethanol... This was in response to your last post relating to E85.

Last edited by invader; 01-16-2017 at 03:40 PM.
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post #40 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 09:07 AM Thread Starter
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Got my Versys back from the shop yesterday. Altogether they spent 6 hours diagnosing the problem with the help of their in-house Kawi Techs. After checking and rechecking just about every component of the electrical and fuel systems (between the 2 shops it went to), it boiled down to a faulty vehicle down sensor (which we looked at before, but I had no way of testing). So it is up and running perfectly again!

Also, I'm well aware of how awful ethanol is for systems not made for it. I only used the standard premium fuel =)
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