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post #41 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-24-2016, 03:24 PM
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I kinda doubt it. The avg food stamp recipient gets $5/day. If you've been keeping track of the news, up to millions of people recently lost even that.
Military OTOH, starts people out at $45k in compensation/yr as of a few years ago. People misconstrue this as meaning their check and think it's wrong. What those who haven't been in don't realize is that food, clothes, schooling, healthcare, legal services, month long vacation, tax free shopping and on and on and on are included in that pay. IOW, if a private sector company wants to pay a competitive wage to an 18 year old know nothing, they'd have to come up with about $23/hr.
Now let's say you retire as an E-8 at 38 years of age. That's $60k a year in base pay. With benefits it's more like ~$85k. Now let's say you got the median of that for 20 years. That's $65k/yr * 20 years = 1.3 million over the course of your career before wage inflation.
Now let's take retirement. You get half your base pay at 20 years if things haven't changed, so that's ~$30k a year. You also get free healthcare, shopping privileges, legal privileges etc. Let's call it $50k a year. The avg life span of males is 78. That's a cool extra 40 years of collecting $50k a year in benefits (again before annual COL adjustments). That costs Uncle Sugar another 2 million smackers.
Totaled up, for 20 years of gov't work you will have made somewhere north of $3 million bucks.
Now let's take a gal who worked for 20 years at the private sector factory, before her job got outsourced or factory got outsource...you know, those little things that gov't workers don't have to think about. Now, after paying 25% of her income every year to support yours, she has become eligible for that great welfare queen food stamp assistance. At $5/day * 365 days, she costs the gov't just under a whopping $2k a year.
Still feelin oppressed?
You make it sound so appealing. What percentage of enlisted make it to 20 years? Anything short of 20, no retirement. You include the benefits package when talking military, but not private sector?

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post #42 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-24-2016, 03:33 PM
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With all that gravy, I'm surprised they don't have a line at the recruiter's office of folks trying to join the Army to get into the infantry and work sixteen hours a day. You get an extra fifty bucks a month if you are willing to jump out of an airplane/helicopter. If you ain't combat arms it is more like a regular job.
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post #43 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-24-2016, 06:16 PM
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You make it sound so appealing. What percentage of enlisted make it to 20 years? Anything short of 20, no retirement. You include the benefits package when talking military, but not private sector?
The private sector doesn't offer many such benefits. Better jobs have some healthcare subsidies, but nothing like free. Pensions are almost completely a thing of the past. For those that get them, they're waiting until at least 65 not 38 years of age to collect.
As far as I know, no private sector jobs have any of the other many benefits.
For those who don't make it 20 years, they get screwed, but the time/money does accrue toward Social Security.
Military has the best bennies for sure, but cops, teachers, firemen etc all have vastly better benefits than the dumb schmucks whose labor pays for them. And yet working class people will beat one another up over earning $20/hr in a union or not deserving a minimum wage that is sufficient to prevent starvation in lieu of food stamps. The thought of providing subsidized healthcare policies to low wage workers has other workers so riled up, they're ready to start a Civil War. And then to add insult to injury, the private sector businesses reserve all their discount pricing for gov't workers.
It's a shame that working class people are so bloody gullible...
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post #44 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-24-2016, 06:21 PM
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With all that gravy, I'm surprised they don't have a line at the recruiter's office of folks trying to join the Army to get into the infantry and work sixteen hours a day. You get an extra fifty bucks a month if you are willing to jump out of an airplane/helicopter. If you ain't combat arms it is more like a regular job.
I don't know about the Army, but the AF was a pretty normal work schedule. I worked in a hospital that mainly cared for area retirees.
My guess is that the line is a lot longer when Dems are running the show. Much easier time when yer not being shot at...
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post #45 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-24-2016, 08:13 PM
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The private sector doesn't offer many such benefits. Better jobs have some healthcare subsidies, but nothing like free. Pensions are almost completely a thing of the past. For those that get them, they're waiting until at least 65 not 38 years of age to collect.
As far as I know, no private sector jobs have any of the other many benefits.
For those who don't make it 20 years, they get screwed, but the time/money does accrue toward Social Security.
Military has the best bennies for sure, but cops, teachers, firemen etc all have vastly better benefits than the dumb schmucks whose labor pays for them. And yet working class people will beat one another up over earning $20/hr in a union or not deserving a minimum wage that is sufficient to prevent starvation in lieu of food stamps. The thought of providing subsidized healthcare policies to low wage workers has other workers so riled up, they're ready to start a Civil War. And then to add insult to injury, the private sector businesses reserve all their discount pricing for gov't workers.
It's a shame that working class people are so bloody gullible...
Personally, I will never understand the minimum wage outcry. The only time in my entire life that I worked for minimum wage was when I was 16. I worked my ass off to better myself and land better paying jobs.

I was willing to take the more physically demanding, more dangerous, more stressful jobs to earn a higher wage. I don't feel sorry for folks who don't want to work hard, or cry because they got a liberal run education that didn't amount to nothing because it was run by union teachers.

I barely made it out of high school, but worked my way through college. It took me 10 years while working full time and raising a family.

Yes, there are the very few that need our assistance. The majority are just lazy, untrained, unmotivated, unwilling, leeches on society.
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post #46 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-24-2016, 08:14 PM
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I don't know about the Army, but the AF was a pretty normal work schedule. I worked in a hospital that mainly cared for area retirees.
My guess is that the line is a lot longer when Dems are running the show. Much easier time when yer not being shot at...
I could bust out pages of articles of the GOP denying veteran benefits..but if you know how to google and type in GOP votes against veterans you can find them yourself...the truth hurts sometimes..and some people refuse to believe it...maybe your memory doesn't include all of the scandals at the Veteran Hospitals during the Bush administration..but I mine does...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter...eglect_scandal

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post #47 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-24-2016, 08:23 PM
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Yes, there are the very few that need our assistance. The majority are just lazy, untrained, unmotivated, unwilling, leeches on society.
it's not like we haven't been through this little bit of misinformation in other postings...once again Google is your friend..try typing in "who's getting welfare" and get the truth not someone's political agenda and anecdotal "evidence" (I've seen it! lol)...oh guess what..this will be a YUGE surprize..VERY FEW..as a percentage..actually are getting "welfare"...believing stuff that ain't true and that just makes you unhappy is so what do you want to call it? people who feed you lies to make you unhappy are what kind of people?


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post #48 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-24-2016, 08:26 PM
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it's not like we haven't been through this little bit of misinformation in other postings...once again Google is your friend..try typing in "who's getting welfare" and get the truth not someone's political agenda and anecdotal "evidence" (I've seen it! lol)...oh guess what..this will be a YUGE surprize..VERY FEW..as a percentage..actually are getting "welfare"...believing stuff that ain't true and that just makes you unhappy is so what do you want to call it? people who feed you lies to make you unhappy are what kind of people?

I'm not talking welfare here you stoner. I'm talking minimum wage. Now go get a job.

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post #49 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-24-2016, 09:43 PM
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Personally, I will never understand the minimum wage outcry. The only time in my entire life that I worked for minimum wage was when I was 16. I worked my ass off to better myself and land better paying jobs.

I was willing to take the more physically demanding, more dangerous, more stressful jobs to earn a higher wage. I don't feel sorry for folks who don't want to work hard, or cry because they got a liberal run education that didn't amount to nothing because it was run by union teachers.

I barely made it out of high school, but worked my way through college. It took me 10 years while working full time and raising a family.

Yes, there are the very few that need our assistance. The majority are just lazy, untrained, unmotivated, unwilling, leeches on society.
You assume that because you found better paying jobs where you lived that they must exist for everyone, everywhere. You assume that because you were a smart, strong young man, everyone must be. You assume that because you have skin color on your side, everyone does.
I would argue that your assumptions may lack a degree of validity...
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post #50 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-24-2016, 09:44 PM
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I could bust out pages of articles of the GOP denying veteran benefits..but if you know how to google and type in GOP votes against veterans you can find them yourself...the truth hurts sometimes..and some people refuse to believe it...maybe your memory doesn't include all of the scandals at the Veteran Hospitals during the Bush administration..but I mine does...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter...eglect_scandal

And you're arguing with me because...
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post #51 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-24-2016, 11:54 PM
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I'm not talking welfare here you stoner. I'm talking minimum wage. Now go get a job.
you may have been talking about the minimum wage..but you threw that jab in at the end..which had nothing to do with the minimum wage...you tell me who you were referencing in the line I quoted...
what the hub bub about minimum wage IS..NOT everyone working for it is a 16 year old kid (pssstt..times have changed fella)...lots and lots and lots of people are trying to make a LIVING working 40 hours a week...I guess they're just stupid to think something like they should make a living wage doing so...go work somewhere else? yeah where my friend? if we have become a service society..then service should pay a living wage...
btw..architecture "was" my field...lots of people happily living in homes of my design...retired with a mountain of cash...it's good to be a hippy stoner man...


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post #52 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 12:02 AM
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And you're arguing with me because...
I miss understood what you said...I went back and reread it a couple of times and couldn't really figure out what you were trying to say...so my bad...
Dems making lines longer..still not sure what you meant..but I thought you meant at the VA...once again my bad...

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post #53 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 05:37 AM
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I miss understood what you said...I went back and reread it a couple of times and couldn't really figure out what you were trying to say...so my bad...
Dems making lines longer..still not sure what you meant..but I thought you meant at the VA...once again my bad...

Walter was talking about the lines of people waiting to get into the military. Seeing as Dems are less likely to send them off as cannon fodder, I was assuming those lines got longer during such administrations. It's good work if the powers that be aren't lying you into conflict...
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post #54 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 05:39 AM
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you may have been talking about the minimum wage..but you threw that jab in at the end..
What's wrong with being a stoner? Long live the mile high state!
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post #55 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 06:40 AM
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I'm a libertarian (or anarchist). What folks put in their body should be their business. I am a capitalist (but not a laissez-faire capitalist). If you are a laissez-faire capitalist take a look at Mexico, India and the U.S. during the robber baron period with the likes of Vanderbilt and Getty. With laissez-faire capitalism one person ends up with all the money. Think how evil socialism is. Think how great for profit libraries or highways would be. Think how good life would be if someone made a profit every time you flushed the toilet or turned on the tap. We have a hybrid systems that seems to work pretty well but needs constant tinkering.

Universal healthcare is one of those areas that would benefit from a little socialism. We (the U.S.) are paying about double what any other industrialized country is paying (about 10% of GDP).
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post #56 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 07:44 AM
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I'm a libertarian (or anarchist). What folks put in their body should be their business. I am a capitalist (but not a laissez-faire capitalist). If you are a laissez-faire capitalist take a look at Mexico, India and the U.S. during the robber baron period with the likes of Vanderbilt and Getty. With laissez-faire capitalism one person ends up with all the money. Think how evil socialism is. Think how great for profit libraries or highways would be. Think how good life would be if someone made a profit every time you flushed the toilet or turned on the tap. We have a hybrid systems that seems to work pretty well but needs constant tinkering.

Universal healthcare is one of those areas that would benefit from a little socialism. We (the U.S.) are paying about double what any other industrialized country is paying (about 10% of GDP).
To me you sound like a Democrat. There was a time when conservatives believed in keeping gov't out of the bedroom, medicine cabinet etc. Those days are long gone. They've always abhorred gov't in favor of private sector economic solutions. That's why it is so bizarre for me to hear so many gov't workers support Republicans. For Christ's sake, there is no more "Socialist" entity on the planet than the military.
Due to technological advances, there has been some reasonable de-regulation in areas like utilities. Where an area was once bound to a single supplier and required gov't oversight to prevent unreasonable monopoly profiteering, now several companies can compete. I don't mind that. Hell, I like that.
I'm afraid there's no good solution to health care. If it's for profit than a few with money can get everything at the expense of many who can't get anything. If it's gov't run, there simply won't be enough resources to provide everyone with everything, so there would be rationing by necessity. That would bring out dingbats like Sara Palin (Trump's bud) to scream incessantly about the gov't killing granny.
That ACA seems like a decent enough compromise. It helps get many insured and the private sector insurance companies can then ration the care. Conservatives don't seem to mind when insurers do it.
One of the MANY nice benefits of the ACA is that the gov't can force insurers to spend a certain percentage of their premiums on actual heathcare. Prior to the ACA, there was a CEO of United Healthcare that was personally pocketing the majority of healthcare premiums because he could. Conservatives love that. It's how people like Trump get to be people like Trump...
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post #57 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 08:12 AM
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The U.S. has one political party with two wing, both controlled by the rich.
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post #58 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 08:49 AM
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The U.S. has one political party with two wing, both controlled by the rich.
That's a common refrain, but there are some definite differences. Notice how when we have Clinton or Obama, jobs rise, people play by the rules, no mass economic catastrophes, no new open ended, cost be damned wars. We get Bushes we get Savings and Loan debacles, complete financial meltdowns, more war than you can shake a stick at. There is an unmistakable difference in how the parties view/govern white collar crime and homeland defense.
It really makes me think about half the people in this country are part gold fish. They seem to have a memory of about 15 seconds.
Personally, I'm a centrist. My views on gov't are closely related to yours. I consider the Democratic party reasonably centrist these days. Republicans have gone off the cliff with the right wing crap. Many young people who presumably would be lean more Democratic are now being enticed by Bernie who's off the deep end in the other direction. Not that his ideas would be bad ones if one wanted to start a new country, but given where we are in terms of debt to GDP, it's pretty pie in the sky.
To top it off, we get a reasonably intelligent candidate that has all the likability of a wombat. I got my fingers crossed, but I'm guessing this doesn't end well...
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post #59 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 09:01 AM
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That's a common refrain, but there are some definite differences. Notice how when we have Clinton or Obama, jobs rise, people play by the rules, no mass economic catastrophes, no new open ended, cost be damned wars. We get Bushes we get Savings and Loan debacles, complete financial meltdowns, more war than you can shake a stick at. There is an unmistakable difference in how the parties view/govern white collar crime and homeland defense.
?? Clinton signed the papers that made the housing bubble possible. that was his economic catastrophe it just ripened after he left office when combined with the economic disaster of 9/11 which happened when Bush was barely into the office.

not going to defend the dumb stuff the republicans have done either but to praise Clinton and Obama? that's turning a blind eye to their bad policies and statistic manipulation that make things appear to be better when either they are actually worse or the policies are just kicking the can down the road to become a worse disaster later.
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post #60 of 830 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 09:32 AM
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The U.S. has one political party with two wing, both controlled by the rich.
From us on the outside is does look like that.
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