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Burnt Stator / Versys 650 / Stator Testing/ Stator Failure Series Regulator

129K views 601 replies 90 participants last post by  Gerinemo 
#1 ·
I checked the manual before posting, not very informative if you don't know anything about it. The most accurate test is what you have already done, and it sounds like you have shorted turns, however it wouldn't hurt to try this again. What you need to realize is this is a 3 phase power source, the white wires need to be identified as white A, white B and white C. , make a drawing of the quick connector and designate on the drawing, and mark the readings down in accordance to your drawing.Measure A to B , B to C and C to A. You should have three readings all very close, like within a couple volts, and as a side note, idle RPM is fine since this is the AC output open circuit voltage, manual says something like 42 volts at 4000 rpm. If one reading is considerably lower then the stator is screwed, you can test this with a ohm meter with the motor off, check the same three and mark down the ohm readings, IMO this is a very inaccurate test. The manual says 0.18 to 0.27 ohms, most test leads of meters are greater than this, only advantage would be to prove that it is open.
:cheers:
 
#194 ·
headlight acting weird

I installed a new stator from Ricks, and a new series r/r from Roadstercycle.
I connected the r/r stator pigtail to the wires that went to the old r/r plug, and ran the r/r output wires direct to the battery so the lighting tap is still in the stator circuit. The brown wire from the ignition that went to the old r/r is not connected, when running voltage output is steady at 14.2 volts as it should be and everything is working the same except the headlight, now the headlight is on when you turn on the key. I feel the brown wire is the culprit but has anyone else experienced this?

The problem is not the brown wire..if I remove the fuse in the wiring between the r/r and the battery, the problem goes away. I will add a relay triggered off the headlight and all should be good.
 
#193 · (Edited)
headlight acting weird

I installed a new stator from Ricks, and a new series r/r from Roadstercycle.
I connected the r/r stator pigtail to the wires that went to the old r/r plug, and ran the r/r output wires direct to the battery so the lighting tap is still in the stator circuit. The brown wire from the ignition that went to the old r/r is not connected, when running voltage output is steady at 14.2 volts as it should be and everything is working the same except the headlight, now the headlight is on when you turn on the key. I feel the brown wire is the culprit but has anyone else experienced this?

The problem is not the brown wire..if I remove the fuse in the wiring between the r/r and the battery, the problem goes away. I will add a relay triggered off the headlight and all should be good.
 
#195 · (Edited)
I installed a new stator from Ricks, and a new series r/r from Roadstercycle.
I connected the r/r stator pigtail to the wires that went to the old r/r plug, and ran the r/r output wires direct to the battery so the lighting tap is still in the stator circuit. The brown wire from the ignition that went to the old r/r is not connected, when running voltage output is steady at 14.2 volts as it should be and everything is working the same except the headlight, now the headlight is on when you turn on the key. I feel the brown wire is the culprit but has anyone else experienced this?

The problem is not the brown wire..if I remove the fuse in the wiring between the r/r and the battery, the problem goes away. I will add a relay triggered off the headlight and all should be good.
If you have a meter that measures DC amps, disconnect the battery and insert your meter in series, see if you have any discharge current with everything off. Second it isn't clear where you connected the stator wires, is it the socket by the TPS ? Good chance your headlight relay is turned on through feedback from the new regulator. I have looked at the drawing, if it is what I think, your ECU relay is energizing the headlight relay when you key on because you already have 12VDC positive at the stator AC input to the headlight relay. Second simple test would be to disconnect the stator plug by the TPS and using a meter on VDC , connect negative to ground and using positive check and see if you have any DC volts on the connector FROM the regulator, with key off and key on ( don't start bike). The results should be no volts DC.



Check some of the following posts, read through some of my posts, detail is in there someplace;

[

http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19996&page=2
 
#197 · (Edited by Moderator)
Check some of the following posts, read through some of my posts, detail is in there someplace;
The Super Series Kit SH775 regulator has the same footprint as oem and bolts right in so rather than run wires back to the stator plug by the tps, I cut off the oem r/r plug and wired the supplied pigtail to the 3 stator wires, leaving the headlight trigger intact in the harness. I isolated the positive and negative wires along with the brown ign wire and ran the supplied output pigtail direct to the battery as per supplied instructions. There is a 25ma drain checked across 30 amp maxi fuse connections, adding a 30 amp relay triggered off the headlight connects and disconnects the r/r output automatically and the headlight acts normally. I could have used a switch but I didn't want to forget the switch and end up with a dead battery. Also this new r/r runs way cooler than the oem, it gets warm but not hot like the oem did.
 
#198 · (Edited)
When I have more time I will post some extensive detail about the way the starter circuit relay locks out the headlight relay until released. Couple things, the wire white with blue tracer ( positive wire from regulator) that you no longer use is connected to a common waterproof joint and then goes to the main 30 amp fuse and is live all the time ( you mentioned you isolated it). I assume you have installed the fuse that came with the new regulator," maxi fuse connections".

I have two suspicions, first test is to disconnect your positive wire from the regulator at the battery and isolate so that you don't short out your output if it touches ground during this test, turn your key to on, headlight should be off, start bike, headlight should come on only once running. If this happens, chances are that the regulator is feeding back through to the headlight relay when you have the positive connected. You only need to switch the positive wire, negative should go to ground.

I just re read your post, and yes indeed the regulator is feeding back, glad you found a solution, this will also eliminate the 25 ma drain on the battery by switching the positive regulator output
 
#199 · (Edited)
As Of 2015 I solved the leakage Problem which was the headlight relay coil circuit, hard to believe but the tap from the 3 phase output is buried in the harness that goes to pin 2 of the headlight relay , a diode is contained inside the relay to recitfy the AC, electronically it is a case once you are producing AC the motor must be running, this latches in the relay, if you were to stall the motor the headlight would remain on as the relay is latched to the 12 volt supply. To read more **go to Polaris Regulator Install by me .

I have left all the valuable posts beyond this post to remain as a story on how I solved it and all the people involved in getting there.



You mean there's a way to prevent the Compufire series type R/R as well, from causing a 25 mA drain without switch or relay, or disconnecting battery?
Short answer "No" Well as of 2015 the answer is YES look under Polaris Regulator Install by me Onewizard

I have explained this before but it never hurts to understand how something works. Both these after market regulators are made for Harleys and similar were the key switch disconnects the battery from the regulator .

The Versys uses the brown wire keyed to the regulator which is actually the control circuit, if you had the old regulator back in operation, you could measure the current on the brown wire, you would find somewere in the range of 15 to 30 milliamp.

Compufire and others have decided to connect this control circuit internally and eliminate one external wire, if these regulators were made in the US, I am sure that if you had 10 or more interested people, they would bring that connection out. I inquired after I discovered the problem on my install of the Compufire regulator, the distributor said that he very much doubted that it would be possible, I left it at that since I have a work around with my relays.

One option would be to connect from the regulator output fuse to both the headlight wire and also to a 30 amp rectifier bridge, from the bridge to the battery. You will end up with a loss at full power of around 10 watt, the battery voltage may be closer to 13.9 at full power due to voltage drop across the rectifier and losses in the lighting circuit. The lighting circuit is designed for 10 amp maximum, there is a risk of burning up your headlight wiring harness. For me I used 2 relays in parallel, came to under $20 complete with harness and sockets, used the tail light to drive the relay circuit, been working for 2 years no problem.
 
#201 ·
The Super Series Kit SH775.
Why not wire it the same way as the original? The trigger wire goes to any one stator wire, and you use the original harness wires for the output. Seems like a lot of messing around just to be able to run a wire direct to the + battery terminal.

In the original regulator, the trigger wire is connected to a stator wire internally, so it makes no difference if it's connected externally. This is shown in the schematic diagram in the shop manual.
 
#204 ·
Shindengen R/R Isolation Relay

When you add a isolation relay to the Shindengen R/R output wire and try to get the relay trigger off the headlight you run into a problem. The regulator uncouples the stator and the headlight circuit doesn't receive the pulse needed to energize the headlight and in turn the relay in the R/R output wire.
The workaround is to change to a spdt relay like CarQuest 83162, connect the output from the R/R to terminal 30, the battery to terminal 87. The spdt relay has a terminal 87a, this needs switched 12volts positive, (I tapped into the plate lamp red wire, I added a blocking diode just in case, stripe towards terminal 87a). A ground wire to terminal 85 and a power wire tapped from the blue/yellow lowbeam headlamp wire to terminal 86.
Now when you turn on the key and the running lamps come on the R/R is temporarily powered thru terminal 87a and latches the stator. Press start and the headlight circuit senses stator output as it normally would and turns on the headlight which turns on the spdt relay disconnecting 87a and connecting 87 and normal charging begins. I could have run the brown wire to terminal 87a and got the same result but it was sealed and bundled and this way was easier. This works for the Shindengen R/R and works automatically, I don't know if it will work with the Compufire system.
 
#206 · (Edited)
When you add a isolation relay.
not able to find the layout of that relay, and I am totally confused as to your connections. Treminal 85 is ground, is this the relay coil wire?hat is the other coil wire number. I then need to no what is relay contact common, what is normally open number, and what is normally closed number. As to why your original circuit didn't work, Compufire switches only the positive pulses, so only uses 3 SCR'S on the positive and uses 3 diodes for the negative, yours uses 6 SCR'S on a 3 phase bridge . Problem is that the relay #2 headlight relay needs a return path for the positive pulse from the stator output through the positive diode of relay #2 to ground, it does this on the Compufire through the negative diodes.
 
#205 ·
Shindengen R/R Isolation Relay

When you add a isolation relay to the Shindengen R/R output wire and try to get the relay trigger off the headlight you run into a problem. The regulator uncouples the stator and the headlight circuit doesn't receive the pulse needed to energize the headlight and in turn the relay in the R/R output wire.
The workaround is to change to a spdt relay like CarQuest 83162, connect the output from the R/R to terminal 30, the battery to terminal 87. The spdt relay has a terminal 87a, this needs switched 12volts positive, (I tapped into the plate lamp red wire, I added a blocking diode just in case, stripe towards terminal 87a). A ground wire to terminal 85 and a power wire tapped from the blue/yellow lowbeam headlamp wire to terminal 86.
Now when you turn on the key and the running lamps come on the R/R is temporarily powered thru terminal 87a and latches the stator. Press start and the headlight circuit senses stator output as it normally would and turns on the headlight which turns on the spdt relay disconnecting 87a and connecting 87 and normal charging begins. I could have run the brown wire to terminal 87a and got the same result but it was sealed and bundled and this way was easier. This works for the Shindengen R/R and works automatically, I don't know if it will work with the Compufire system.
 
#209 · (Edited)
I drew it out, and your spot on, yes the brown wire would have worked and like you said it was already tucked away.The diode will prevent burning up the tail light wiring should the coil circuit fail while the bike continues to run.
As to compufire, the only problem was cured by installing a SPST relay, and yes it doesn't fit as well, plus your's appears cheaper in price. So that would be the way I would go if my Compufire fails, by the way you must be involved in the electrical industry, fine job of figuring it out.:goodidea:

As of 2015 RELAY NO LONGER NEEDED See Polaris Regulator Install:thumb::thumb:
 
#213 ·
Newest club member. New stator from RMStator on order. Now to sort out which way to go on the R/R. Mine is still ok, but it appears to be inevitable that the new stator will eventually fail too. Also getting a Heads Up voltage monitor so I can see the next imminent failure coming my way. :rolleyes:

A big thanks to Onewizard for your assistance to this electrical moron. :cheers:

Please, no welcomes to the club.
 
#214 ·
Newest club member. New stator from RMStator on order. Now to sort out which way to go on the R/R. Mine is still ok, but it appears to be inevitable that the new stator will eventually fail too. Also getting a Heads Up voltage monitor so I can see the next imminent failure coming my way. :rolleyes:

A big thanks to Onewizard for your assistance to this electrical moron. :cheers:

Please, no welcomes to the club.
:exactly: what would be neat is for Kawasaki to install this SH 775 regulator as standard equipement Fat chance that will ever happen
My 2015 has the same antique regulator, as of Dec.2016 the 4012941 Polaris regulator almost doubled in price!!:thumbdown::thumbdown:
 
#215 · (Edited)
Now if someone with skills (I suck at paint) could draw out the two diagrams and add them to this thread, everyone could solve the issue and enjoy their ride and not have the stator beast lurking around the next curve. And yes I have been involved in making electrical components work where they were not designed to be.
My interest is up, even though I have a Compufire regulator, I am interested to see to what degree Shindengen went in the design of the SH775

What I need is measurements with a digital meter to two decimal places, measured at the battery;
1--measure at idle switching high beam on for several minutes then off, note if any fluctuation and what the values were
2---accelerate momentarily to 3000 or 4000 rpm, note if any changes , voltage should be 14.2VDC
3--hold at 3000 rpm and momentarily turn high beam on and off, note changes
4---accelerate to 5000 rpm and back to idle, note what the meter is reading at 5000 ----that is , is it steady or fluctuating

Found more test results, http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-tri...iagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade-2.html
a warning about losing regulation on Triumph 600-4, which has a 14500 red line

Also a little confusion, searching on Ebay for polaris 4012941, comes up as a Mosfet regulator, possibly people that are ill informed
 
#216 ·
Actually, you can select between Shindengen's FH020AA shunt type three-phase MOSFET "short FET" regulator, or the new SH775 series type three-phase "open" regulator.
The SH775 uses 6 SCR's to turn the stator windings on and off instead of dumping them to ground like the FH020AA does. Much better idea.
 
#219 ·
STATOR WINDING INFORMATION / CAUSES

:funnypost:
**

Well I am going to start with a little at a time so no confusion.What I found on OEM stator;
It is wound with 18 gauge magnet wire , no idea as to temperature rating but I doubt it is class H http://www.superioressex.com/upload...s/emcwa-nema_magnet-thermal-class-ratings.pdf. so--------------it is Delta connected, 18 gauge is 1624 circular mils, as a rule of thumb we used 250 cm per ampere where concern of insulation breakdown in a high heat area, that was 35 years ago, present day magnet wire can easily run at 100'C,when I say that, electric motor ratings have a temperature rise rating, typical T frame motors coming out now have a 80'C rise rating. What this means is in a 30'C ambient temperature the motor outside shell could be 110'C at full load, so you could easily boil water on the motor---------and it is designed to operate like that-----if there is interest I could go further, however, like anything, the higher the temperature the shorter the lifespan of the equipment. They have much higher classes of insulation now, class C will be cheaper than H.

So OEM is connected Delta, that is 2 #18 gauge wires per line ( 18 is 1624 cm) = 3248 cm divided by 16 amp AC max = 203 cm per amp.AC 16 x 1.73 x 12 volts = 332 Watts

Where I have a problem is some after market stators have converted to a Y connection, mathematically the turns per pole will be the delta turns divided by root 3 ( 1.73) = Y turns. As a example OEM is roughly 44 turns of 18 gauge wire connected Delta, a Y connected would be 25 turns per pole.

Now you need to convert the wire size , calculated is 2810 which is 15.5 gauge , I would use 15 gauge which is 3248 cm, basically what we had on OEM Delta.
This is were I have a problem, after market winds Y connected, but uses the same delta wire gauge of 18, this calculates to 101 cm per amp. So if you were to put a series regulator in, average current is 8 amp per phase and magically you are back to 202 cm per ampere.

So what I plan is to do a separate post with pictures as to OEM and RM stator ( I have emailed them and judging by the immediate response, they aren't interested in anything I have to say).

Short version of OEM failure is mistakes were made in one of the phase connections, I can't prove if line 2 was the same because both wires were burnt off / broken and a third jumper wire was also broken in the same pole----all one big burned mess. What they did is all the starts and finishes for each pole crossed over each other at the base of the pole piece, as well the jumpers from each pole were all buried at the base of the pole, to reduce congestion they brought the six wires around the back of the poles to make connections, all done within 3 poles.

What happened is one of the magnet wires from pole# 5 was buried in pole #1 along with pole #1 , what happened is the wrong 2 wires were joined.So it was a 2 phase delta connection, and the regulator probably rarely shunted any power.
 
#220 ·
Thanks again for your help onewizard. It was certainly interesting to see so many meters hooked up to my V with the new RMstator. Glad that you know what's what and look forward to hearing your verdict on what R/R will be best for the RMstator.

About the only thing that I understood was seeing the charred black wiring harness on my OEM stator and realizing that there was little wonder that it failed. :eek:

Hopefully we will all find a better combination to ensure that we don't get stranded by stator failure.

My Heads Up voltage monitor is on order. At least I will have advance warning if it happens again, I hate seeing my bike brought home in the back of a truck .:(
 

Attachments

#222 ·
This is critical winding information that I possibly will follow up on in 2016/2017 to increase current output briefly the difference:

Stator output maximum = 330 Watts
@ 14.2 VDC= 330/14.2= 23.23 Amp DC
@ 13.2VDC= 330/13.2= 25 Amp DC My feeling and recent tests show the VAC going in are about 7% high, once the magnet wire is hot, this drops off. I am looking at changing from Delta to Y , each connection has advantages and disadvantages, going Y I reduce the number of turns which if you measure the insulation adds up to about 2 turns per pole, this gain will be lost as I want to increase the wire size to either a 15 or 14.5 gauge, the China knockoffs are using 18 gauge on the Y connected stator, as you can see in my data below the Delta uses 2 18 gauge******so someone out there can start thinking about this, I think I could gain between 7 and 10% in output,this would definitely require a series regulator


I have some more info, and once I am done, I will post my findings on known stator suppliers, after that I will leave it up to the individual to decide.

For now I will give the winding dope for both a Y and a Delta

Delta which is what OEM is;
44 turns per pole of 18 gauge magnet wire per pole, I would try and get class H---( OEM looks like a class C or F)

length of 18 gauge is 96" per pole, 576" per phase plus 20"= 596" and 1788" total to rewind delta = 150 feet approx.of copper in OEm

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y connected
15 gauge magnet wire, 25 turns per pole= 56" X 6 poles =332" plus 20= 352" or 29.5 feet per phase or approx. 90 feet of 15 gauge connected Y to do a complete rewind

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
as you can see, 60 feet less to wind Y and 450 total turns on Y as opposed to 792 turns on delta-------advantages and disadvantages for each, one advantage of Y is less insulation----as a example if I subtract 25 from 44 = 19 X .004 = .076 inches, I gain roughly the thickness of two 18 gauge wires with less turns, the .004 is the insulation ( .002 on each side);

now that everyone is asleep, I will stop here-----------this is almost like a JDRocks -------can't wait for the next post----well not really:forgetit:
 
#223 ·
Do you recommend the Delta, or the Y, as the preferable solution?



COMPARISON OF Y TO DELTA

****

:confused:
Not quite that simple.
Y has a total of 450 turns, Delta 792 total turns,
so 342 more chances of shorted turns on Delta. From a standpoint of winding, Delta is easier because of the wire gauge, easier to form 18 gauge than 15 gauge.

Another option is to wind Y with what is refered to as "two in hand", use 2 of the class H 18 gauge magnet wires, easier to form but MUCH HARDER to layer wind without getting crossovers, plus you are now adding insulation and in reality it will take 15% more room to wind.

What I am contemplating to do is wind with a 14 gauge, Y connected, with reduced turns, like 23 per pole.

I need to do more testing and wait for some results from a few other sources, this may be a winter project.

So to answer your question, if machine wound with class H, I would go with Delta------------hand wound using class H I would go with Y, and with Y you could cheat like some of the after market stator suppliers are doing and wind with a 16; 17; or like __ __ __ __Stator, uses 18 gauge on Y

One last thing, if your bike load is stock, you don't intend to add aditional loads and you will never need 330 watts output, reduce load by changing out the city lights to LED etc., then adding a series regulator on your after market 18 gauge Y stator , may give you 5000 hours before burnout.:eek:

Same after market stator with stock regulator, riding in 25'C weather for extended periods or extended periods of running at or above 4000 RPM , expect to be a seasonal occurance changing out stators .:censored:
 
#224 ·
Joined the Stator club @41k miles

Hi Everyone
Iv now joined the club at 41k miles. Broke down as described previously; lights and clocks went out, still running then jerky running and then dead.
Broke down 580 miles north of home at the top of scotland and trucked it all the way back :(

Iv been diligently reading all the forum posts about this problem and i must commend you all on the level of detail the posts go into in this thread. The information is so in depth and amazing I am very glad to have such helpful fellow versysians to offer advice.:cheers:

Im looking into the comparisons between the shindengen and the compufire series R/R and cant find much difference. costs roughly the same (in the UK) and does the same job (improvement on OEM R/R) Is there anything i am missing?

Im also talking to the guys over at ricks motorsport electric to find out the current capacity of their stator as it occurs to me that unless the stator can supply the current capabilities of the R/R i could potentially melt the new stator?
For information for people planning a preventative fitment of a series R/R, does anyone know the current rating of the stock stator?
The compufire can deliver 40A and the Shindengen 35A, so hopefully Ricks will come back and say the stator is good for atleast 40A.
I may never utilise this capacity but i too am a fan of over engineering so something runs happily for years at 75% capacity.

Anyway Ill let you know in due course what I found out from Ricks.
:feedback:
 
#227 ·
Hi Everyone
Iv now joined the club at 41k miles. Broke down as described previously; lights and clocks went out, still running then jerky running and then dead.
Broke down 580 miles north of home at the top of scotland and trucked it all the way back :(

Iv been diligently reading all the forum posts about this problem and i must commend you all on the level of detail the posts go into in this thread. The information is so in depth and amazing I am very glad to have such helpful fellow versysians to offer advice.:cheers:

Im looking into the comparisons between the shindengen and the compufire series R/R and cant find much difference. costs roughly the same (in the UK) and does the same job (improvement on OEM R/R) Is there anything i am missing?

Im also talking to the guys over at ricks motorsport electric to find out the current capacity of their stator as it occurs to me that unless the stator can supply the current capabilities of the R/R i could potentially melt the new stator?
For information for people planning a preventative fitment of a series R/R, does anyone know the current rating of the stock stator?
The compufire can deliver 40A and the Shindengen 35A, so hopefully Ricks will come back and say the stator is good for atleast 40A.
I may never utilise this capacity but i too am a fan of over engineering so something runs happily for years at 75% capacity.

Anyway Ill let you know in due course what I found out from Ricks.
:feedback:
If you are talking to a live person, find out what gauge the magnet wire is and what the connection is, I am sure it is 18 gauge and Y, but check into that and I will tell you what it is good for, and that stator will NEVER put out 40 amp, unless 9VDC is what you need.

So it is clear, heat in a stator, is essentially voltage drop across the resistance of the wire and connections, the higher the resistance the greater the loss, the loss being in the form of heat. The magnetic field strength is fixed so the only way to increase output is to increase speed , reduce losses by increasing wire gage, change turns ratio. The Versys is something like 330 Watt, you could wind it to produce 100 volts @ 3.3 amp or 33 amp @ 10 volts.
I think it is possible to get 400 watts out of the magnetic field of the Versys, I just don't know if there is enough room to get the wire gauge required to reach this number.
 
#225 ·
Here are some pictures of a RM Stator out of Quebec and the burnt one is OEM.
Several different views , one thing to note is that RM stator is .200 thinner and I have contacted RM and talked briefly with Mike , one of their Tech people. I mentioned that when installing the RM stator the distance measured between the base of the housing and shoulder of the allen head cap screw when snugged up in the housing was 0.515 and the RM stator was 0.521, OEM was 0.721 thick, we ended up drilling out three nuts that were .176 thick, as it was risky that the bolts could bottom out and the stator could actually be loose.

I also mentioned that the Y connected stator was wound with the same 18 gauge wire as the OEM Delta connected, why the concern, I mentioned in previous posts, but circular mils per amp is half of what OEM stator is, it should have been wound using 15 gauge magnet wire. All the postings I have seen on this site including Ricks, going back to 2008, have the same amount of distance between poles, that is the amount of copper is about 50% less.

I will give my opinion and views as to stators in another post along with what is available as to regulators . I was told the reason from changing from Delta to Star / Y, was due to the number of burnt stators
You will see in photo 3 , JPG 1 , the Y connection at the 7 O'Clock position--------also so there is no confusion the RM Stator is the new looking green epoxy coated stator
[/attach][/attach] One of the design problems of OEM is that all the starts and finishes are at the base of each pole, so it is ineveitable to have crossovers and one more place to short out individual poles. In the RM stator the finish is at the top of the pole, then jumps to the next 3rd pole and starts at the base, so virtually impossible to have shorted poles due to start and finish connections ( look at top of photo #1 ).
 
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